You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 11, 2016, 06:02:42 AM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: Memory - it's made of meat.  (Read 1183 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MnemaxaTopic starter

Memory - it's made of meat.
« on: June 27, 2009, 01:24:00 AM »
Not quite literally, but surprisingly, it is made of proteins, among other things - including seratonin affecting it (so depressed people may have real memory trouble beyond 'I was depressed at the time).

http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/firstimageofamemorybeingmade

Which poses an interesting situation as PETA and Vegans claim meat and animal proteins are bad....loose muscle mass, injure your memory, avoid those good amino acids, for the sake of furry friends and 'good' eating?  Could we be shortening our memories as we avoid those things, out of ignorance?

Offline Tachi

Re: Memory - it's made of meat.
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2009, 01:26:40 AM »
Well that explains why I forget some things.

Offline Silk

Re: Memory - it's made of meat.
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2009, 06:11:24 AM »
Was kind of obvious, as our brains are meat as a whole, its not like our memories and conciousness and alike were some form of magic.

Offline consortium11

Re: Memory - it's made of meat.
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2009, 06:30:58 AM »
And when has PETA previously demonstrated that they in the slightest care about human health and quality of life?

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Memory - it's made of meat.
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2009, 09:42:52 AM »
Okay - as I understand it (and my last life sciences class was before the turn of the millennium, so I'm a little rusty), all proteins are made from 22 or so amino acids in varying combinations.  Are there any of those amino acids that are only obtainable through meat?  And if so, could they be provided in some form of supplement?

I am by no means a vegan, vegetarian or Peta-peon, but I've met two types of meat-avoiders*: the fluffy-but-rabid ones that only read the labels enough to see if there is anything animal-related on them, and the ones that research their dietary choice and make sure they're getting enough B12, for example.  This result might well explain why the fluffy-but-rabid ones seem so - out there.

*Meat-avoiders is meant to imply a certain stringency, unlike the 'vegetarians' that allow the occasional fish or chicken. (What plant do those grow on, exactly?  And if they saw this picture, would they eat mutton?)

Offline consortium11

Re: Memory - it's made of meat.
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2009, 11:08:14 AM »
Okay - as I understand it (and my last life sciences class was before the turn of the millennium, so I'm a little rusty), all proteins are made from 22 or so amino acids in varying combinations.  Are there any of those amino acids that are only obtainable through meat?  And if so, could they be provided in some form of supplement?

I am by no means a vegan, vegetarian or Peta-peon, but I've met two types of meat-avoiders*: the fluffy-but-rabid ones that only read the labels enough to see if there is anything animal-related on them, and the ones that research their dietary choice and make sure they're getting enough B12, for example.  This result might well explain why the fluffy-but-rabid ones seem so - out there.

*Meat-avoiders is meant to imply a certain stringency, unlike the 'vegetarians' that allow the occasional fish or chicken. (What plant do those grow on, exactly?  And if they saw this picture, would they eat mutton?)

I'm far from an expert on the issue, but from how I understand it, it is possible to get a complete set of amino acids without consuming meat. However to do so you would have to eat a huge quantity of eggs, cheese and dairy products... which 1) isn't practical for a "normal" diet and 2) doesn't work if you're vegan, obviously. To get complete amino acids you have to consume animal produce... it is as simple as that. Meat is the easiest form to find them in, contains them in the most readily avaliable form and contains the best practical amounts.

As for supplementation, a quick google-fu check seems to indicate that while it is possible to supplement for a diet that doesn't provide them, if you wish to use supplements that are vegetarian friendly/vegan friendly you're going to have to spend a lot of money taking a lot of pills, as most of the sups that don't come from animal products contain individual amino acids in relatively small amounts and in a fairly deifficult to digest/process form.

Offline The Overlord

Re: Memory - it's made of meat.
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2009, 05:12:23 AM »

PETA I’ve been convinced for a while now is just batcrap fracking loco. Vegans I have mixed feelings on, it all comes down to motive. If they’re doing it because they think it’s healthier, more power to them I suppose. Some I get the impression that they think they’ve ascended to some higher state of being by not eating hamburgers and they can frack off so far as I’m concerned.

I am to the point that I am mistrusting the so-called experts. First they say for years to go for the tier 4-food-group pyramid, and that all fat is bad. Now they say fat good, in moderation, particularly the Omega 3 fats you find in salmon, etc.

Turns out we NEED fat, and we need meat. Meat doesn’t just build memories, predators tend to be cannier than herbivores out of need. We were hunter-gathers for millennia, stressing hunters. Nuts and berries may have given us protein but they didn’t build our predator brain. A good two-third of our brain is the cerebral cortex, which defines everything that makes us human, and it wasn’t built on eating leaves. You can’t deny several hundred thousand years of evolutionary programming because some research monkey said so

Offline Neroon

  • Sneaky Little Weasel
  • Oracle
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Stationed with the Slug-Slaying Cavalry
  • Gender: Male
  • Beware of geeks bearing gifs
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Memory - it's made of meat.
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2009, 07:46:12 AM »
Okay - as I understand it (and my last life sciences class was before the turn of the millennium, so I'm a little rusty), all proteins are made from 22 or so amino acids in varying combinations.  Are there any of those amino acids that are only obtainable through meat?  And if so, could they be provided in some form of supplement?

I am by no means a vegan, vegetarian or Peta-peon, but I've met two types of meat-avoiders*: the fluffy-but-rabid ones that only read the labels enough to see if there is anything animal-related on them, and the ones that research their dietary choice and make sure they're getting enough B12, for example.  This result might well explain why the fluffy-but-rabid ones seem so - out there.

*Meat-avoiders is meant to imply a certain stringency, unlike the 'vegetarians' that allow the occasional fish or chicken. (What plant do those grow on, exactly?  And if they saw this picture, would they eat mutton?)

The essential amino acids are, as far as my memory can dredge: phenylalanine, valine, threonine, tryptophan, isoleucine, methionine, leucine, and lysine and are the ones that the human body can't synthesize.  With the caveat of my shaky memory I believe that the term "1st class protein source" is used to describe the foods that contain these amino acids and "second class protein" for those that lack one or more of them.   Animal sources of protein (including dairy products) are considered to be first class and plant sources second class.  Of course, in the twenty odd years since I last looked at this in detail, I do not doubt that new terminology has arisen.

Given the roles of methionine in protein tertiary structure and tryptophan in the synthesis of serotonin (hence turkey's legendary soporific properties) I would say that these two are the ones that might be most important in brain function.  Don't take my word for it, however, that's just an educated guess.  These two are particularly scarce in legumes, which is a shame as otherwise those would be a good protein source for the meat avoider.  If the meat avoider is only concerned with eating adult chickens and isn't concerned about eating embryonic ones then eggs are an excellent source of first class protein.

I mention the eggs as being embryonic chickens because it is chilling that prevents the eggs from developing.  There have been several recorded cases of shop bought eggs being successfully incubated to hatch as chicks.

For the record, I have no particular dietary axe to grind.  I just see things in terms of our biology is such that we are adapted to eat a mixed diet.  Therefore, that is what we should have.  However, I don't see that this should necessitate needless cruelty to animals.

Offline Rhapsody

Re: Memory - it's made of meat.
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2009, 03:51:16 PM »
You can’t deny several hundred thousand years of evolutionary programming because some research monkey said so

Should I point out that there are people who deny evolution in all its forms and theories, even as a tool of the Creator-deity (as some choose to reconcile it with their faith)?  Or is that another thread? :)

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Memory - it's made of meat.
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2009, 04:08:12 PM »
Should I point out that there are people who deny evolution in all its forms and theories, even as a tool of the Creator-deity (as some choose to reconcile it with their faith)?  Or is that another thread? :)

Yeah - I think it was circling the bowl in Politics and Religion a little while ago ;D

Offline MnemaxaTopic starter

Re: Memory - it's made of meat.
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2009, 10:44:58 PM »
Was kind of obvious, as our brains are meat as a whole, its not like our memories and conciousness and alike were some form of magic.

Actually, most of the brain consists of fatty tissues. 

Hence why people who are below a 5% fat body-weight volume are considered ill.

Offline Indigo

  • Sui Generis
  • Deverified
  • Enchanted
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2009
  • Location: ¤ Sui Generis ¤
  • Gender: Female
  • I am a law ønly for my kind, I am nø law før all.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 2
Re: Memory - it's made of meat.
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2009, 06:56:33 PM »
All makes sense to me...the human body isn't a cow or a lion...we're humans and have radically evolved to survive off a plethora of different things...yet the basics are still the basics. 

Ruffage, Protien, Grains.

Yumm.....makes me want a big fat, oversized chicken salad with croutons.

slurp

But then of course 'all things in moderation'.

Offline Apple of Eris

Re: Memory - it's made of meat.
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2009, 09:16:31 PM »
You can get complete amino acid from a variety of grains and legumes. You do not -need- to eat meat, it's just tasty.

"A complete protein (or whole protein) is a source of protein that contains an adequate proportion of all of the essential amino acids for the dietary needs of humans or other animals. [1] This does not refer to the protein source only containing all the essential amino acids, but also containing them in complete proportion for use by the human body. A source may contain all essential amino acids, but contain one in lower proportion to the others, making it an incomplete protein. In order to be a complete protein, the source must contain all essential amino acids, and contain them in complete proportion for use by the body."
And
"Some foods contain all the essential amino acids on their own in a sufficient amount to qualify as a "complete protein". Complete protein foods that also obtain the highest possible PDCAAS score of 1.0 are certain dairy products, egg whites, and soy protein isolate. Other foods, such as amaranth, Aphanizomenon flos-aquae, buckwheat, hempseed, meat, poultry, soybeans, quinoa, seafood, and spirulina also are complete protein foods, but may not obtain a PDCAAS score of 1.0"

All from Wiki :)

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Memory - it's made of meat.
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2009, 09:32:18 PM »
Quote
Complete protein foods that also obtain the highest possible PDCAAS score of 1.0 are certain dairy products, egg whites, and soy protein isolate. Other foods, such as amaranth, Aphanizomenon flos-aquae, buckwheat, hempseed, meat, poultry, soybeans, quinoa, seafood, and spirulina also are complete protein foods, but may not obtain a PDCAAS score of 1.0"

Of these (taking out the meat and animal products), I have seen soybeans and buckwheat in our big grocery store.  Amaranth and quinoa, I recognize as 'ancient' grains (from my bread machine book ;D) and have to be found through specialty merchants.  Hempseed may run up against marijuana laws, if it's what I think it is.  Spirulina (a green algae, as I recall) is found mostly in 'health food stores', with associated prices.

As for Aphanizomenon flos-aquae - which I had to Google - I was surprised to find that one of the top results was an article indicating that this particular blue-green algae is a potential carrier of toxins, as well as being a less complete protein source that spirulina at an even higher price.  Also, Wiki contained this on it:

Quote
Aphanizomenon flos-aquae (AFA) is a type of blue green algae that grows worldwide. The category “blue-green algae” is a misnomer as the 'algae' is not a plant at all but part of the cyanobacteria phylum in the Bacteria kingdom. AFA as a species has both toxic and non-toxic forms. Most sources of AFA worldwide are toxic; containing both hepatic and neuro endotoxins.

Toxic AFA

Specific toxic forms/incidents of AFA have been reported in Canada, Germany, and China. These types of AFA have been known to produce endotoxins; chemicals that are released when the cell dies. Once lysed toxins can damage liver and nerve tissues in mammals. In areas where water quality is not closely monitored the World Health Organization has assessed toxic algae as a health risk; citing the production of Anatoxin-a, saxitoxins, and cylindrospermopsin. Dogs have been reported to have ill or fatal reactions after swimming in rivers and lakes containing toxic AFA. Since adverse chemicals are stored as endotoxins, reactions are most likely due to consumption of the bacteria rather than exposure to the skin. Regardless, excessive contact with toxic-type AFA should be avoided when possible - research is not all encompassing.

Offline consortium11

Re: Memory - it's made of meat.
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2009, 04:57:29 AM »
"Natural" Soy protein isolate isn't a complete protein... it's lacking in methionine. It's why nearly all manufactuerer's add it in off the back of a series of studies on the issue (such as [ur=http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/32/12/2460l]a comparison between supplemented and unsupplemented soy protein.[/url] You can also throw in that its PDCAA score is deceptive... both it and animal products get a rating of "1.00", but the animals products is actually higher... score above 1.00 aren't reported.

And that's without all the other issues with soy that make it a pretty poor protein source.

It's also worth noting that there are problems with using any of the other mentioned sources. While quinoa is generally held as the king of the "alternatives" it is limited by thyrosine and phenylalanine and to get your daily recommended protein requirements (and I'd recommend far more...) requires you to eat over a KG of quinoa a day. I doubt anyone would just eats quinoa, but it helps illustrate the main issue with all non-animal products; while it may be possible to get close to a decent amino acid profile to do so costs more, requires some real pre-planning, requires you to eat more and even then won't be as easily digested.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Memory - it's made of meat.
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2009, 05:54:17 PM »
 
Quote
You can get complete amino acid from a variety of grains and legumes. You do not -need- to eat meat, it's just tasty.

 Yes. I do need to eat meat. I do not have the teeth of a goat, goat or sheep. There is a reason the human body can process meat as well as vegetables. The most effective and best forms of proteins is meat.It's good for me (in moderation), tastes good and I like it. Until there are no other meat animals to eat, I will continue to eat meat.

Offline AK47

Re: Memory - it's made of meat.
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2009, 07:34:25 PM »
You can get protein from nuts (parrots are probably the most intelligent herbivore) but the most efficient way to get protein is meat.

The most intelligent species in the world (humans, Dolphins) are Preditors anyways.
Grazers evolve to be big and agressive, Predators evolve to be fast and cunning.

Offline Serephino

Re: Memory - it's made of meat.
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2009, 09:22:52 PM »
I don't put down anyone who wants to be a vegetarian if that's how they really want to live....  They think they're healthier because they're thin, but they usually aren't.  The size of one's waist does not determine health.  I wish people would get that through their thick skulls.  However, my only concern is my own body.

I know that alternate sources of protein do not do it for me.  I get lightheaded and nauseous if I go more than a day or two without meat.  I didn't have any today so I'm feeling a little off.   

Offline AK47

Re: Memory - it's made of meat.
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2009, 10:27:11 PM »
It is worth noting however that getting too much protein can cause cancer and that vegans are at lower risk for cancer.

Protein causes growth. If you don't grow you die, If you grow to much you die. Eat meat, but not too much.

Offline Lithos

Re: Memory - it's made of meat.
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2009, 02:42:34 AM »
Even better way to avoid cancer is to die young, chance to get it grows hugely with age, no matter what you eat :)

Offline consortium11

Re: Memory - it's made of meat.
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2009, 05:05:13 AM »
It is worth noting however that getting too much protein can cause cancer and that vegans are at lower risk for cancer.

Protein causes growth. If you don't grow you die, If you grow to much you die. Eat meat, but not too much.

1) Source? And the well known "red meat causes bowel cancer" study doesn't count seeing as it split eating into two arbitary types included red meat in the group that also was full of processed sugars and other crap and then when there was an increased risk of bowel cancer said it was all down to red meat.

2) Compared to what? The average fairly unhealthy diet or a healthy diet which is relatively high protein? Of course someone eating a slightly more healthy vegetarian diet is going to have less risk of cancer (and other illnesses) than someone eating an unhealthy diet... but what about comparing it to the diet of someone who knows what's going on and actually follows it.

The issue with high protein diets has always been supposed kidney damage, but there have been no long term studies on the issue.