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Author Topic: Scientists find frakking huge black hole in M-87 galaxy  (Read 3005 times)

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Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Scientists find frakking huge black hole in M-87 galaxy
« on: June 09, 2009, 05:23:16 AM »

A Real Whopper: Black Hole Is Most Massive Known

http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20090608/sc_space/arealwhopperblackholeismostmassiveknown


Also a wiki page for general info on Virgo A/Messier 87/NGC 4486.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messier_87


Quote
PASADENA, CALIF. — The most massive black hole yet weighed lurks at the heart of the relatively nearby giant galaxy M87.

The supermassive black hole is two to three times heftier than previously thought, a new model showed, weighing in at a whopping 6.4 billion times the mass of the sun. The new measure suggests that other black holes in nearby large galaxies could also be much heftier than current measurements suggest, and it could help astronomers solve a longstanding puzzle about galaxy development.

"We did not expect it at all," said team member Karl Gebhardt of the University of Texas at Austin.

The discovery was announced here today at the 214th meeting of the American Astronomical Society.

Game changer

The finding "is important for how black holes relate to galaxies," said team member Jens Thomas of the Max Planck Institute for Extraterrestrial Physics in Germany. "If you change the mass of the black hole, you change how the black hole relates to the galaxy."

Because of this relationship, the revised mass could impact astronomers' theories of how galaxies grow and form.

Higher black hole masses could also solve a paradox of the masses of faraway, developing galaxies called quasars. These mysterious denizens of the early universe are very bright, developing galaxies with black holes surrounded by gas and dust, all rife with star formation. Quasars are colossal, around 10 billion solar masses, "but in local galaxies, we never saw black holes that massive, not nearly," Gebhardt said.

"The suspicion was before that the quasar masses were wrong," he said. But "if we increase the mass of M87 two or three times, the problem almost goes away."

Why M87 matters

M87 is 50 million light-years away. Nearly three decades ago, it was one of the first galaxies suggested to harbor a central black hole. Now astronomers think that most large galaxies, including our own Milky Way, have supermassive black holes at their centers.

M87 also has an active jet shooting light out of the galaxy's core, created where matter swirls closer to the black hole and approaches the speed of light, then combines with tremendous magnetic fields. The spat-out material helps astronomers understand how black holes attract and gobble up matter, a sloppy process in which all is not consumed.

These factors make M87 "the anchor for supermassive black hole studies," Gebhardt said.

While the new mass of M87 is based on a model, recent observations from the Gemini North Telescope in Hawaii and the European Southern Observatory's Very Large Telescope in Chile support the model findings.

The study of M87's mass will also be detailed later this summer in the journal Astrophysical Journal.


Offline Vekseid

Re: Scientists find frakking huge black hole in M-87 galaxy
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2009, 11:11:15 AM »
Not really, M87 is the lightweight in the heavyweight class >_> OJ287 is especially interesting because a second black hole is currently infalling into it, getting close enough to pass through the supermonster's accretion disc.

The vortex surrounding the black hole in M87 is mindboggling, regardless. At 6.4 billion solar masses, the black hole itself is some 38 billion kilometers wide - compare to say, Neptune's orbit, which is 9 billion kilometers wide. The surrounding vortex is something like 60 light years wide for M87's black hole, though this is not necessarily the accretion disc - just food >_>

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Scientists find frakking huge black hole in M-87 galaxy
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2009, 05:04:18 PM »
Whoopsie, looks like someone at Space.com didn't check the astronomical archives.

They can quote the measurements for size, but even understanding that it's hard to get a true grasp for the true scale of these monsters. When you're talking an event horizon wider than a solar system...that thing has to be mind-wrenching viewed from relatively close up. We're talking apocalypse on a scale that even Hollywood hasn't successfully taken on.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 05:05:19 PM by The Overlord »

Online Lithos

Re: Scientists find frakking huge black hole in M-87 galaxy
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2009, 05:31:58 PM »
I wonder when someone is going to make catastrophe movie of a black hole.

I mean, they already kickstarted our sun from when it died in sunshine :P

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Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Scientists find frakking huge black hole in M-87 galaxy
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2009, 02:50:09 AM »

The Black Hole was good, but it modeled after campy classic-era sci-fi. If it had been done now, it'd be a lot more grim, like Battlestar and other post-911 stuff.

Was fun, but not as scary as staring a singularity in the face should be. For me at least, staring at the business end of a category 5 hurricane at sea was way more exhilarating.

Online Lithos

Re: Scientists find frakking huge black hole in M-87 galaxy
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2009, 03:09:55 AM »
O.O

They need to make list of rules of movie making too instead of just internet.. it could be like:

Rule 34: If you can imagine it, there is movie of it.

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Re: Scientists find frakking huge black hole in M-87 galaxy
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2009, 08:26:23 AM »
The Black Hole was good, but it modeled after campy classic-era sci-fi. If it had been done now, it'd be a lot more grim, like Battlestar and other post-911 stuff.

Was fun, but not as scary as staring a singularity in the face should be. For me at least, staring at the business end of a category 5 hurricane at sea was way more exhilarating.

The second one looked more like the classic 'disaster movie' scenario (with a weird alien life form thrown in for good measure), but I couldn't resist including the more well-known film.   ;D

Online Lithos

Re: Scientists find frakking huge black hole in M-87 galaxy
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2009, 09:53:48 AM »
I guess I should give them a look. I am so perverse that I actually found Snakes In Airplane quite hilarious x.x

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Scientists find frakking huge black hole in M-87 galaxy
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2009, 02:35:08 AM »
I guess I should give them a look. I am so perverse that I actually found Snakes In Airplane quite hilarious x.x

I don't think it was intended to be anything but.

Offline Indigo

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Re: Scientists find frakking huge black hole in M-87 galaxy
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2009, 05:22:07 PM »
Well blah,

Seriously, making a movie?  It would take a screenwriter of some actual finesse, along with a capable director, and cast, to make the regular citizen comprehend such an event....

...sighs...too bad I'm mortal here...I'd really like to be able to flutter around and see such things meself.

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Scientists find frakking huge black hole in M-87 galaxy
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2009, 07:50:27 PM »
 
Problem is, as far as the universe goes, black holes are pretty much the closest thing to final apocalypse.

Earth might recover from alien invasion, but if even a modest sized black hole came wandering through the solar system, it would shred planets or fling them out of their orbits, even potentially devour or destabilize the sun.

Hollywood has a predisposition with happy endings, with heroes riding off into the sun...you don't get that with black holes. Not even Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee together can kung fu fight a black hole. Someone else would have to do it...

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Re: Scientists find frakking huge black hole in M-87 galaxy
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2009, 08:06:03 PM »
There's always the theoretical extension of a black hole into a corresponding quasar on the other end.

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Scientists find frakking huge black hole in M-87 galaxy
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2009, 08:16:00 PM »
There's always the theoretical extension of a black hole into a corresponding quasar on the other end.

Which is more or less what they did with Disney's Black Hole...after that point science stops and sci-fi begins...even if a wormhole exists, there's the matter of surviving the tidal forces.


IMHO, the best depiction of black holes came in season 2 of Stargate SG-1, episode A Matter of Time.

Hulu's not all it's cracked up and advertised to be; I can hardly find a show there that loads quick. Be that as it is, I added the Hulu link for the episode and a YouTube trailer.


Hulu - Stargate SG-1: A Matter of Time - Watch the full episode now.


Stargate: SG-1 - Season 2 "A Matter Of Time" Promo

Offline Indigo

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Re: Scientists find frakking huge black hole in M-87 galaxy
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2009, 10:33:57 PM »
I personally 'hate' Disney and everything associated with it's generic, white-washed, disassociated films. So not really seeing that they actually might come to 'grips' with a true version of what might happen with anything associated with a black hole remotely near our solar system, yet alone the 'center of our' galaxy...then again, most people don't know the difference between the solar system and the galaxy that it lies within...hah....heh...meh....*sighs*.

Ah well, que sera, sera.

Done and done.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Scientists find frakking huge black hole in M-87 galaxy
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2009, 10:47:25 PM »
The amount of time dilation you experience from a black hole is the same as the escape velocity at your location. If you are close enough to a stellar mass black hole to experience significant dilation, you are already dead.

They didn't give it an Einstein ring, either >_>

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Scientists find frakking huge black hole in M-87 galaxy
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2009, 06:16:37 PM »
The amount of time dilation you experience from a black hole is the same as the escape velocity at your location. If you are close enough to a stellar mass black hole to experience significant dilation, you are already dead.

They didn't give it an Einstein ring, either >_>


Being that the saving element was the stargate, there was the possibility of ‘switching off’ the black hole, being that all other options including escape velocity were clearly gone from the beginning, when SG-10 was lost.


I’m sure there’s at least a half dozen crucial points where physics can pick the plot apart, nonetheless, I found it an entertaining and original story, with just enough creepy factor to begin justifying the situation they were in.

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Re: Scientists find frakking huge black hole in M-87 galaxy
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2009, 05:19:42 PM »
...just reading the argument makes me all warm and fuzzy...thanks...and thanks.

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Scientists find frakking huge black hole in M-87 galaxy
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2009, 05:48:16 PM »

...just reading the argument makes me all warm and fuzzy...thanks...and thanks.

You're welcome. Actually, I’m with you on you Disney take; I've been referring to them in conversation as the Evil Empire for years now.

Of their films, The Black Hole is one I favor, it may be because I'm slanted toward sci-fi, but it has a good B-movie to classic 1950's-1960's golden era feel to it. Having Anthony Perkins is the icing on the cake. You can take it only so seriously, and it's a fun movie.

As for the rest, all the Disney animated flicks seem to be essentially the same character archetypes slightly redrawn with similar plots. They're just happy happy joy joy things to keep your kids placated as the monitor or movie screen burns flashing lights on their little retinas.

I don't have kids and have no plans for a family, but this I can tell you; if I did, I'd be keeping them away from Disney 'entertainment'. Disney is the same as Walmart; both companies started out benevolent by creative owners, but have since transformed into dark side black holes themselves, an anathema of what they used to be.

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Scientists find frakking huge black hole in M-87 galaxy
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2009, 06:04:06 PM »
There's always the theoretical extension of a black hole into a corresponding quasar on the other end.

The thing with this, is that black holes would be wormholes not just through space but through time; specifically back in time. Quasars are extremely distant, a.k.a. extremely old objects, that are relics of a bygone era.

When the universe was younger, smaller, hotter, and denser, galaxies and super-sized stars were piling up the mass through gravity, and these central galactic black holes were consuming matter voraciously. The combustion of material accreting about these monsters produces these relativistic jets of blazing energy and mass in opposite directions, from the 'poles' of a mega black hole. When they are aimed in our direction we see something resembling a very brilliant star, so bright that it's visible halfway across the observable universe.

Quasars are not 'white holes' or the end point of a black hole that's been theorized, the fact that there are no (relatively) nearby quasars in the local universe is a good indicator that they've all gone away from the universe and cooled down, and thus the relics we see today are just objects billions of years old because the light from them has been traveling all that time to us.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Scientists find frakking huge black hole in M-87 galaxy
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2009, 08:08:09 PM »
There are plenty of active nearby galaxies - M87 here is one. Quasars run the gamut of brightness, and what they are is, at this point, fairly obvious - giant black holes during feeding season.

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Scientists find frakking huge black hole in M-87 galaxy
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2009, 10:12:50 PM »

Based on everything I've seen to date on the subject, quasars are relics of a younger and much less quiet cosmos. As active as M-87 is, it wouldn't be as bright as many of the extreme distance quasars on the edge of visibility. These things are truly goliaths in comparison.


In a younger universe with more mass in given amounts of space, that's what lead to those uber-massive first-generation stars that blew themselves up eons ago. It seems that things were just more intense in the first billion or two years after the Big Bang.

Offline Tankou

Re: Scientists find frakking huge black hole in M-87 galaxy
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2009, 01:18:07 AM »
OMG! How did my expert eyes NOT catch this earlier... Maybe cause they are not yet expert XD Anyway this kinda thing is a big find for me XD i am studying Astro/Quantum physics and black holes ar right in the middle of the Quantum scale what with being Quantum Singularities and all XD I must look all ths about ^_^ Thanks for the news albeit I am a bit late XD

Offline Vekseid

Re: Scientists find frakking huge black hole in M-87 galaxy
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2009, 02:38:39 AM »
Based on everything I've seen to date on the subject, quasars are relics of a younger and much less quiet cosmos. As active as M-87 is, it wouldn't be as bright as many of the extreme distance quasars on the edge of visibility. These things are truly goliaths in comparison.

They are brighter but not necessarily larger. M87 has an absolute magnitude of about -22, and the dimmest quasars start at -23 - or only about two and a half times as bright, whereas quasars have been measured with supermassive black holes with a mass range not much bigger than Sagittarius A*.

You're right, of course, that the difference in brightness is because of the availability of food, but the availability of food is actually inversely proportional to the size of the central black hole - the bigger it gets, the more its emissions have pushed things away.