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Author Topic: Becoming Green  (Read 2482 times)

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Offline CrimsonxKissesTopic starter

Becoming Green
« on: June 07, 2009, 11:12:06 PM »
A story of my own that previously took place at the local Stop&Stop.
"How hard is it to pick up your trash and throw it in the wastebasket?" I was wondering the same thing yesterday, when I walked out of the grocery store, my grandmother's groceries in a bag slung over my shoulder.  See, little things like getting to the entrance, getting a wheelchair and things of the sort are hard for my grandmother, so I decide to help her out when I can. Well, parked next to her is a foolish kid who'd like to consider himself 'gangster.' His hat is to the side, his shirt is ten sizes too big, his nose has been broken many times, (From cockiness, I'm sure!) and his music is loud. Now, I don't have a problem with loud music usually. But, I do when we're at Stop&Shop, a family grocery store where children could be standing right next to you. Well, under this kid's car is a large, plastic Cranberry juice bottle. Y'know what? I decided to pick that bottle up. But not without asking the boy if it was his... And soon enough, I was silenced with a "No, I don't know whose that is." Me being me, I gave the kid a break. Who hasn't parked on/near trash before? Not many of us haven't, at least once in our lifetime. Well, I was a bit shocked when I came back to find my grandmother arguing with the boy, telling him something along the lines of "I saw you drop that, you owe her an apology." I wasn't expecting one, but when I heard the boy reply to my grandmother with "Why you gotta get in my face, lady? Stop harassin' me!" I stepped in. "How dare you talk to her that way," I replied with, an annoyed look on my face. Eventually, I was tired arguing with a boy with an IQ of ten. Pick your battles, and pick them wisely... it really doesn't hurt to just pick up a piece of litter and throw it away while keeping your mouth closed. But my grandmother, being herself, fights for what is right... and thankfully, I am blessed to have a person like that in my life. You can't always be quiet when it comes to things that affect us all and this Earth, and I believe that was what my grandmother's point was. Pick up your own God damn trash. Throw that soda can in the recycling basket in your house, not the trash one for once. Not only will you get paid, but you'll save energy as well. Don't be afraid to walk up and down your street with a bag, picking up litter as you walk your dog. These are little things we can all do to help our world be healthier, safer, and preserve it longer for the children we have, may have, or may adopt in our lifetime.

Various things you might be wondering about, and my answers to them.
Q: I like dairy and meat products. Why should I stop, or try to cut down on them?
A: Because animals used are treated poorly, and all of this could be stopped easily. Animals shouldn't be abused because we like the taste of them, don't you agree? See the website below if you'd like to read further.
http://www.animalfreedom.org/english/information/abuses.html#pigs

Q: Is there anywhere I can find tips for going green?
A: There are many sites on this web that you'll find by just trying in "Green" or "Going Green." But, following under this sentence is a site that could help you with various daily tasks that you could make more environmentally friendly.
http://www.thegreenguide.com/

Q: What is being 'environmentally friendly?'
A: To be environmentally friendly is to, in my opinion, worry about your surroundings and how they'll be affected by you. Would your children want to live in a world filled with litter and pollution? See the site below for more information.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmentally_friendly

Q: If I decide to cut down via recycling, will I make that big of a difference?
A: Definitely. A huge one? Maybe not. But with the help of others, which I'm trying to do now, you will. Your kids will grow up healthier, you'll be healthier, and the world will be preserved for a longer amount of time. I'm not 100% sure of statistics, so I've come up with two sites that can provide you with the crucial information needed.
http://ozarksfirst.com/content/fulltext/?cid=147681
http://www.help-stop-global-warming.com/global-warming-recycling.html

Q: Can I save money by going 'green,' as you call it?
A: Heck yes! You can save money on various bills such as heating, electric, and water. Plus, you can just get some cash for bringing your cans to the local recycling center! Read how to do this below.
http://www.thedailygreen.com/green-homes/latest/earth-day-money-savers

Why going green is such a big deal to me.
I know everyone bitches about the world, and why we're in so much trouble. But would you like to know why I, as a person, want to help? Because, if I can protect the lives of children and this Earth at the same time, why shouldn't I? Being green is a big deal to me. The concept of 'Global Warming', to be truthful, scares the life out of me. From doing what we all are doing now, no good comes out of it. Animals are abused just so we can have them for dinner. The streets are littered with many things that are hazardous. Food and clothes are wasted each day, meanwhile people are starving and scantily clad. You can help them. Do it because I want you to. Because I dare you to. Because it will make others and myself happy. Because you can put a smile on a face by just doing your own part...

Things I personally think you'd be interested in, if you have a bit of spare money.
http://www.christianchildrensfund.org/spnscreat/SpnsCreatEntry.aspx?c8l5h=SPNSMICRO&moken=ggsp0908
Christian Children's Fund. Yes, they can be a nag... I know, because I sponsor a child myself. They'll pester you about taking on another one, even if you already sponsor. But, it's for a good cause. You can help. Why don't you?

http://www.mspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=waystohelp_Ways_to_Donate
MSPCA-Angell. You've seen the heartbreaking commercials, yet you haven't written the number down... Well, here's your chance. As much as I hate to say it, some animal out there is whimpering because he or she doesn't have food, and another might be whining because they're taking some serious blows from a cruel owner. But, then, those two are rescued from those horrible situations. Well, what do shelters run on, dirt? Wrong. They all run on money, as you know. So, why aren't you helping pay? For all you know, it could be your cousin-you've-never-met's dog who's abused, or your neighbor's cat that you're unaware of because you never see it, seeing as they lock it in the house and don't feed it often. I'll love you if you do it, and so will those little tails... you'll see once they start wagging.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 01:21:23 PM by CrimsonxKisses »

Online Doomsday

Re: Becoming Green
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2009, 12:30:15 AM »
I recycle practically everything, but sometimes I litter, not going to lie. I never litter with contempt, or litter and lie about it like whomever your grandmother was arguing with.

Concerning animals and our planet... Nothing short of some world-changing disease would stop me from enjoying my meat and dairy products. I'm a carnivore, and could never survive on fruits, veggies and grains alone (Well, fruits and grains maybe).

But anyways, concerning recycling, I have two separate bins for plastics/glass products and paper/cardboard products, and all of our aluminum cans go out to the garage, where my dad sits on them for a couple years then cashes them in. We used to swing by the local metro-park to drop the bins off at the recycle-specific dumpsters there but the city has implemented a recycling pickup, so that's pretty cool. My household is of four people including myself, and my good friend also lives in a family of four; we've recycled since forever, and they just started recently. We only ever put out 1 can of garbage a week (except for when we're cleaning excessively of our house like recently), and they used to put up 3-4 cans a week, 1 per person sometimes  :o Since they started, they're down to 2 cans a week.

Offline rafufu

Re: Becoming Green
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2009, 06:03:12 AM »
I agree with you on the animal cruelty thing, but that's not going to stop me eating meat. Even if I did stop, the animals would still be in the same situation unless everyone stopped, and that is highly unlikely.

As for recycling, I find it hard to recycle when you see all your recycling and all your normal rubbish being throw into the back of the same garbage truck.

With the charities, I'm guilty of giving a lot more to animal charities than human ones. I would never sponsor a child, but I do sponsor a rhino.

Offline Mathim

Re: Becoming Green
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2009, 11:41:06 AM »
I got rid of my car (for non-environmental reasons) and started riding my bike exclusively and I recycle a lot (for money) but lately I am feeling better about having done all that because I did make a small difference. People really admire me for making those kinds of changes and efforts, it feels good to have people taking notice and possibly deciding to make more conscientious changes.

Online Doomsday

Re: Becoming Green
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2009, 03:25:47 AM »
Sometimes when respond to things like these I feel like some sort of carbon-apologist... and it makes me mad  >:(

Offline SugarShane

Re: Becoming Green
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2009, 05:17:35 AM »
Well, I voted for the Green party last week in the Euro elections ;D

I walk to work, I own a car but only use it for long distance journeys.  Ahem, energy saving light bulbs, turn things off when not in use, recycle paper and glass.

I'd do much more if I knew it was worth it.  Americans seem attached to their gas guzzling SUVs, my American friend certainly changed his attitude when he saw our petrol prices when he stayed here ;D  Plus I hear China are always building yet more power stations without a care for the world so whatever little I seem to do it seems rather pointless.

Offline Mathim

Re: Becoming Green
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2009, 11:34:24 AM »
Well, I voted for the Green party last week in the Euro elections ;D

I walk to work, I own a car but only use it for long distance journeys.  Ahem, energy saving light bulbs, turn things off when not in use, recycle paper and glass.

I'd do much more if I knew it was worth it.  Americans seem attached to their gas guzzling SUVs, my American friend certainly changed his attitude when he saw our petrol prices when he stayed here ;D  Plus I hear China are always building yet more power stations without a care for the world so whatever little I seem to do it seems rather pointless.

It is pretty discouraging, but eventually we'll be forced to go back to the stone age once we run out of resources to keep up our first-world lifestyles.

Offline Nimmy

Re: Becoming Green
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2009, 02:37:40 PM »
That is only assuming that we as Americans don't change our attitudes about sustainable energy sources and practices. I know it's not as big as it should be, but there has been a bit of a movement towards it in some areas of the country, as far as I know.

Offline CrimsonxKissesTopic starter

Re: Becoming Green
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2009, 11:35:25 PM »
Work with me here people! I'm going to reply to all of you, because I feel you all have something different to say about this, so forgive me if it's just too damn long!

I recycle practically everything, but sometimes I litter, not going to lie. I never litter with contempt, or litter and lie about it like whomever your grandmother was arguing with.

Concerning animals and our planet... Nothing short of some world-changing disease would stop me from enjoying my meat and dairy products. I'm a carnivore, and could never survive on fruits, veggies and grains alone (Well, fruits and grains maybe).

But anyways, concerning recycling, I have two separate bins for plastics/glass products and paper/cardboard products, and all of our aluminum cans go out to the garage, where my dad sits on them for a couple years then cashes them in. We used to swing by the local metro-park to drop the bins off at the recycle-specific dumpsters there but the city has implemented a recycling pickup, so that's pretty cool. My household is of four people including myself, and my good friend also lives in a family of four; we've recycled since forever, and they just started recently. We only ever put out 1 can of garbage a week (except for when we're cleaning excessively of our house like recently), and they used to put up 3-4 cans a week, 1 per person sometimes  :o Since they started, they're down to 2 cans a week.
To say, in the least... I am proud of you. (Yeah, I probably sound like a Mother, unfortunately!) We all make a difference in this world. This is why there is the wonderful world of being a 'copycat!' See, copying is just a form of flattery... if they like your idea and believe it will help us as a state, a country, a continent, and an Earth, people are more apt to do it. I really wish I could cut down on garbage... but I'm a major shopper, when it comes to everything... so I have about a bag every other day. (Eeeek!) I don't recycle as much as I should, but we all have our flaws, and they're things we all want to work on.

I agree with you on the animal cruelty thing, but that's not going to stop me eating meat. Even if I did stop, the animals would still be in the same situation unless everyone stopped, and that is highly unlikely.

As for recycling, I find it hard to recycle when you see all your recycling and all your normal rubbish being throw into the back of the same garbage truck.

With the charities, I'm guilty of giving a lot more to animal charities than human ones. I would never sponsor a child, but I do sponsor a rhino.
It may not stop you from eating meat, that's a personal choice of yours that I cannot decide for you. But, that does not mean I don't agree with you fully... If you did stop, many animals would be saved. Maybe not a drastic number of them, but think of how much meat, dairy, and fish you consume a week... a month... hell, think about one year of meat alone. That's a damn lot, you have to admit. And if you do it, and set good examples... as I said before, more people are prone to follow along. Oh, that's funny... it sounds horrible, but I'm so much more into animals than kids. See, children... as they get older, they have somewhat of a choice. I mean, yes, I do sponsor a child and not an animal... but that will change soon, let me tell you! The big difference here is: Animals don't have a choice. They cannot speak, nor express their feelings. They're helpless in a way. See, as I said before, as children grow older, their options widen and things of the sort. They can leave, they can be better. I'd willingly take on a job at the MSPCA helping animals more than I would working at the Library with children for extra volunteer work. (Which I plan to do soon, because these things always look good on college applications, let me tell you!) Also, about the recycling things going in the same garbage truck... that's truly odd. Here, in Massachusetts, we have all different places to recycle. At some supermarkets, they'll take glass, tin, and... plastic bags, I believe. At the dump, they take... oh well, the dump takes everything, so let's not go there. I'm assuming you live in a big city...?

I got rid of my car (for non-environmental reasons) and started riding my bike exclusively and I recycle a lot (for money) but lately I am feeling better about having done all that because I did make a small difference. People really admire me for making those kinds of changes and efforts, it feels good to have people taking notice and possibly deciding to make more conscientious changes.
See?! As much as people would like to disagree, helping feels good! Whether it be an animal, a person, or just this world... there's a feeling you can't get by doing something else. You and I make a difference together, and all we can do is hope it rubs off on others so they can as well.

Sometimes when respond to things like these I feel like some sort of carbon-apologist... and it makes me mad  >:(
Well, I don't know why you'd be upset to answer to this... I'm sorry if I made you feel that way for some reason, even though I'm not too sure what a carbon-apologist means. But, I do feel you should never be angry when it comes to things that affect you, me, and this environment.

Well, I voted for the Green party last week in the Euro elections ;D

I walk to work, I own a car but only use it for long distance journeys.  Ahem, energy saving light bulbs, turn things off when not in use, recycle paper and glass.

I'd do much more if I knew it was worth it.  Americans seem attached to their gas guzzling SUVs, my American friend certainly changed his attitude when he saw our petrol prices when he stayed here ;D  Plus I hear China are always building yet more power stations without a care for the world so whatever little I seem to do it seems rather pointless.
Well, congrats on that! Slowly, you're making progress. I'm also glad to say I'm proud of you. (Go special lightbulbs! My house is filled with them, even 'though they're God awful.) But, on another note about the 'I'd do more if I knew it was worth it.' You are not pointless, and what you do is not pointless. I've said it before, but I'll say it again... the hell with it, I'll say it 'till my fingers are so sore I can't type anymore. You make a difference. I make a difference. That bum in the corner makes a difference, and that cat walking across your fence does too. The tree in your backyard does, and so does a house plant. The Earth is like a little terrarium, because if we change it drastically... things will die, and eventually become different. Also, I  agree when you said China is aware of this, but to put it in plain terms? Maybe, just maybe, most don't care. They're the center of our products here in America, I'm not sure there... but they're bringing' in the cash, and apparently that's more important to them. But, you can't always judge a book by it's cover, because us Americans do get labeled too. And no, it doesn't go for all of us, does it?

It is pretty discouraging, but eventually we'll be forced to go back to the stone age once we run out of resources to keep up our first-world lifestyles.
Stone age? Eh, I'm a bit doubtful when it comes to that... but something along the lines of it, sure. We should really be saving up now, because these are nonrenewable resources, people! Sometimes I think the human body just can't decipher words like that and things of the sort... and it is sad, but this is [insert wherever you live here], what can I say?! (Not sure of where you currently reside, so I had the brilliant idea of putting a [insert whatever here] ;))

That is only assuming that we as Americans don't change our attitudes about sustainable energy sources and practices. I know it's not as big as it should be, but there has been a bit of a movement towards it in some areas of the country, as far as I know.
I agree with everything you said here. Really, there's not much more I can add to it. Keep up the smart thinkin', girly.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 08:07:33 PM by CrimsonxKisses »

Online Doomsday

Re: Becoming Green
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2009, 05:43:48 AM »
Well, I don't know why you'd be upset to answer to this... I'm sorry if I made you feel that way for some reason, even though I'm not too sure what a carbon-apologist means. But, I do feel you should never be angry when it comes to things that affect you, me, and this environment.

Not trying to be rude, but your OP seems like a huge guilt trip, and I feel like a "Carbon-apologist" (I made up the word but it seems fitting) because I'm trying to justify and apologize for things you might see as wrong of me. I think the environment is resilient as hell and Nature is going to outlive us even if we do our worst. I'm not advocating you should go out and try to have a ball and fuck Nature as you go along, but you'll not see me donate to whatever charity you're championing or change any of my ways for the sake of a chipmunk.

[/miniature rant]

Offline Nimmy

Re: Becoming Green
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2009, 12:33:54 PM »
Not to antagonize you or anything, HPDDJ, but the problem right now is our relationship with a species with nature, not whether nature can survive our worst. Nature IS resilient. If you look at a number of nuclear test sites around the world, nature is bouncing back. It does take it some time to clean itself out, but the fact that it can is huge.

I also have to point out that according to a book I read for my Biology class last semester, called Cradle to Cradle by William McDonough and Michael Braungart, to a certain extent we don't have to change our lifestyle - we just have to change how we create a lot of products. Yeah, there are certain things about our lifestyle (as humans on the whole, not individually) that need to change, but according to this book's authors, if we redesign products and how they're made and to an extent redesign the factories that these products are made in, we can significantly lessen the amount of crap we end up dumping in the environment.

Also according to this book (no, it is not my Bible, but it was a very interesting read), recycling is actually more of downcycling (a word the authors invented). Take paper for example. If we want to get a piece of paper made out of previously recycled paper to be as white as it was the first time around, we have to add more harmful chemicals into it. Also, there's a point when paper fiber just can't take being recycled anymore and winds up in a landfill. Recycled anything is never as high a quality as it was the first time around, and in a lot of senses we're just keeping it around for longer before dumping it, eventually, in a landfill. The thought is a good one and thankfully it's there, but in practice... it still needs a lot of work.

Offline CrimsonxKissesTopic starter

Re: Becoming Green
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2009, 04:01:24 PM »
Not trying to be rude, but your OP seems like a huge guilt trip, and I feel like a "Carbon-apologist" (I made up the word but it seems fitting) because I'm trying to justify and apologize for things you might see as wrong of me. I think the environment is resilient as hell and Nature is going to outlive us even if we do our worst. I'm not advocating you should go out and try to have a ball and fuck Nature as you go along, but you'll not see me donate to whatever charity you're championing or change any of my ways for the sake of a chipmunk.

[/miniature rant]

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. If you don't like it, I really suggest you don't reply futher. This isn't a space where I plan to be 'told off' in a sense. You don't have to do any of the above, because there's this amazing thing God let us have... choice. It's your choice whether you look at this, whether you reply, whether you're rude like you are now, or whether you just ignore it and look the other way. And, never once have I seen you apologize... because I didn't ask, nor would I accept a silly apology of the sort. On another note, I'm putting charities out there, one, because they're safe, and trusted sites. Two, because I myself donate to one/plan to donate to the other. If you don't agree, you're opinion really isn't needed. It'd be appreciated if you took the time to post on someone else's thread instead of mine. Oh, and nature will outlive us? We're having forest fires and killing acres of land every second... and you think nature will outlive us. Riiiiight.

Not to antagonize you or anything, HPDDJ, but the problem right now is our relationship with a species with nature, not whether nature can survive our worst. Nature IS resilient. If you look at a number of nuclear test sites around the world, nature is bouncing back. It does take it some time to clean itself out, but the fact that it can is huge.

I also have to point out that according to a book I read for my Biology class last semester, called Cradle to Cradle by William McDonough and Michael Braungart, to a certain extent we don't have to change our lifestyle - we just have to change how we create a lot of products. Yeah, there are certain things about our lifestyle (as humans on the whole, not individually) that need to change, but according to this book's authors, if we redesign products and how they're made and to an extent redesign the factories that these products are made in, we can significantly lessen the amount of crap we end up dumping in the environment.

Also according to this book (no, it is not my Bible, but it was a very interesting read), recycling is actually more of downcycling (a word the authors invented). Take paper for example. If we want to get a piece of paper made out of previously recycled paper to be as white as it was the first time around, we have to add more harmful chemicals into it. Also, there's a point when paper fiber just can't take being recycled anymore and winds up in a landfill. Recycled anything is never as high a quality as it was the first time around, and in a lot of senses we're just keeping it around for longer before dumping it, eventually, in a landfill. The thought is a good one and thankfully it's there, but in practice... it still needs a lot of work.

I agree to an extent, but that's just my opinion. In time, nature will bounce back... with the help of us, of course. How can nature go back to how it was before and cleanse itself if we, as a nation, do not take the toxins out? Well, that's just how I feel. And, that recycling thing? It's an eye opener, but it won't stop me from doing it, because: I'd rather use an extra chemical to keep it around longer, rather than cut down a tree. When I see people cutting down beautiful trees in their yard, it makes me sick, because chances are, they'll just use it for firewood. How valuable that tree was before they killed it...

Offline Nimmy

Re: Becoming Green
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2009, 05:05:02 PM »
Quote
Oh, and nature will outlive us? We're having forest fires and killing acres of land every second... and you think nature will outlive us. Riiiiight.

First off, I'm pretty sure a number of forest fires burning right now are wildfires and not caused by men. Second, in some cases, natural fires are actually beneficial to the health of a forest (see here), assuming not everything in that forest is lost. Ever heard the saying "nature abhors a vacuum?" Yeah. Nature regenerates itself given enough time.

Quote
In time, nature will bounce back... with the help of us, of course. How can nature go back to how it was before and cleanse itself if we, as a nation, do not take the toxins out? Well, that's just how I feel.

Watch this video about Bikini Atoll, where about 20 nuclear weapons were tested. The video I just linked you to is of the special the Science Channel did on it back in January (it's about 45 minutes long for anyone interested). The lagoon is home to a number of wrecks, all of which were the ships that the first bomb was tested on. The ships didn't sink after the initial blast, and the Army thought they were safe to return to, even though scientists said that there was far too much radiation. The attempts to decontaminate the ships were unsuccessful because they didn't know any better. Obviously, they failed, so the ships were sunk rather than be a danger to others.

A group of scientists wanted to see if the atoll and the wrecks were still radioactive. So they did a dive to study the radioactivity around one of the ships, the Saratoga. The results? Radioactivity in the lagoon is surprisingly low, mostly because a radioactive element, cesium, bonds with chlorine atoms in the ocean water and is carried away and dispersed to the point where it's harmless in the oceans. Coral reefs and a lot other marine species have made a comeback. In the wrecks, same results: low radiation levels because of the ocean's cleansing power. Granted, the island people have had some run-ins with radioactive cesium, but that's because it's gotten into the palm trees and into plants that they got their food from.

Messing with nature is what got us into this mess in the first place. We try to remove toxins from water with sewage treatment plants - not always effective. There's a place in Brazil where they implemented a "sewage treatment system" that's a series of ponds with a number of native plant and animal species, and guess what? They get safe drinking water out of the other end of it. These "systems" are close to the community, so the people are far more aware of what's going into their water because it directly affects them. Contaminated soil may be removed from a site, but it gets buried after. Why not put some native species in there known for cleaning properties and let them completely decontaminate the soil naturally. Nature's hardier than you seem to give it credit for. I mean, after all... nature's bounced back from various ice ages and a number of mass extinctions pretty well.

Quick note: products made of recycled materials aren't exactly all that good for your health. At least it's an attempt.

Online Doomsday

Re: Becoming Green
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2009, 06:04:26 PM »
Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. If you don't like it, I really suggest you don't reply futher. This isn't a space where I plan to be 'told off' in a sense. I apologize for stating my opinion, allow me to stand here and nod like a sheeple. You don't have to do any of the above, because there's this amazing thing God let us have... choice. Well if you're going to turn this into a Theological debate, I'll show myself to the door It's your choice whether you look at this, whether you reply, whether you're rude like you are now, or whether you just ignore it and look the other way. I stated before I'm not trying to antagonize and I apologize if you feel antagonized And, never once have I seen you apologize well aside from a few sentences back now :P but that wasn't for carbon .. because I didn't ask, nor would I accept a silly apology of the sort. Well you're asking for people to change their ways with your guilt trip, even if you're not directly looking for them to say "I'm sorry for breathing" On another note, I'm putting charities out there, one, because they're safe, and trusted sites. Two, because I myself donate to one/plan to donate to the other. If you don't agree, you're opinion really isn't needed. It'd be appreciated if you took the time to post on someone else's thread instead of mine. I'm in plenty of threads if you couldn't tell from my post count, but whatever Oh, and nature will outlive us? We're having forest fires and killing acres of land every second... and you think nature will outlive us. Riiiiight. Forest fires are ultimately productive to the eco-system, and unless we salted everything and sealed it in a vacuum, we haven't killed a single acre of land. You're a fool if you think nature is so dainty... she's a tough old maid.

Just sayin
« Last Edit: June 10, 2009, 06:06:07 PM by HPDDJ »

Offline CrimsonxKissesTopic starter

Re: Becoming Green
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2009, 02:51:27 AM »
First off, I'm pretty sure a number of forest fires burning right now are wildfires and not caused by men. Second, in some cases, natural fires are actually beneficial to the health of a forest (see here), assuming not everything in that forest is lost. Ever heard the saying "nature abhors a vacuum?" Yeah. Nature regenerates itself given enough time.
Well, I don't believe you're correct there... many fires are caused by the human race itself, and if you say it's not, some research would be beneficial to you. (Don't take that in a personal way, because it's not like I mean it how it may sound.) Here's a site or two you might want to check out, even though these are from late 1990's.
http://www.albionmonitor.com/indonesia/rainfire.html
http://www.albionmonitor.com/9710a/amazonfires.html
It's not like those areas are scarce, with nothing in sight. They're quite large, and animals thrive in those areas in general.

Quick note: products made of recycled materials aren't exactly all that good for your health. At least it's an attempt.
I like controversial topics such as these. I'll have to do much more looking into this, but from what I've heard personally, recycling is beneficial to not only us ourselves, but to the world as well. If the cons outweighed the pros, wouldn't we be notified or something?

Just sayin
HPDJJ, I do believe you've said quite enough. Either remove yourself from this topic, or I'll just notify someone about it... it's really not that hard.

Online Doomsday

Re: Becoming Green
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2009, 04:10:30 AM »
Well I'm sorry you've taken such offense, maybe you should not talk about such an obviously sensitive topic if you're afraid of meeting opposing views. Consider me gone.

Offline Ptolemy

Re: Becoming Green
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2009, 05:40:42 AM »
On Earth Hour, I turn all my lights on.

That's my opinion on the Green movement.

Online Silk

Re: Becoming Green
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2009, 04:50:02 PM »
As to prevent a flame war, i will just say i agree with HPDDJ, especially so with the don't talk about something if you get shitty after a counter arguement is produced. But that is in general.

And no I can't be a self rightious animal rights freddie because of my Crohn's Disease and I rather enjoy living
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 04:53:37 PM by Silk »

Offline CrimsonxKissesTopic starter

Re: Becoming Green
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2009, 08:05:58 PM »
Well I'm sorry you've taken such offense, maybe you should not talk about such an obviously sensitive topic if you're afraid of meeting opposing views. Consider me gone.
I really didn't take anything personally, (And I hope you didn't too?) nor did I want you gone because of your 'opposing' views. It had nothing to do with that, and to be truthful, some of the things you said to me were rude, hence the reason I asked you to leave. I don't mind opinions, as long as they're not offensive.

On Earth Hour, I turn all my lights on.

That's my opinion on the Green movement.
...Was that really needed?

As to prevent a flame war, i will just say i agree with HPDDJ, especially so with the don't talk about something if you get shitty after a counter arguement is produced. But that is in general.

And no I can't be a self rightious animal rights freddie because of my Crohn's Disease and I rather enjoy living
Agree with whomever you want, it doesn't affect me so much. I'm not one for taking sides, personally, but I can't say too much about it. I don't remember getting 'shitty,' but I do apologize if anyone took it that way. I'm sorry about your illness, but I don't really see what it has to do with this thread, post, or anything here.

Offline consortium11

Re: Becoming Green
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2009, 08:30:13 PM »
I'm sorry about your illness, but I don't really see what it has to do with this thread, post, or anything here.

I'm no expert on the subject and am happy to be corrected if wrong, but in your post you emphasise why people should stop/cut down on meat. Crohn's disease (which I believe is actually suffered by a disproportionate number of vegetarians/vegans) can have it's symptoms alleviated by a high fat  + high protein diet based around red meat.

Offline CrimsonxKissesTopic starter

Re: Becoming Green
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2009, 10:27:38 PM »
I'm no expert on the subject and am happy to be corrected if wrong, but in your post you emphasise why people should stop/cut down on meat. Crohn's disease (which I believe is actually suffered by a disproportionate number of vegetarians/vegans) can have it's symptoms alleviated by a high fat  + high protein diet based around red meat.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/jul/16/health.food

Maybe I'm reading these two things wrong stated from the website above...

Yet results suggested the chances of someone with Crohn's being a meat eater were 40% greater than those of someone without the disease being a meat eater.
(Now is it just me, or is it saying meat eaters are at a higher risk for bowel cancer, seeing as Crohn's disease is in fact a disease of the bowels?)

Last month, a study revealed those who ate two portions of red meat a day had a 35% greater risk of developing bowel cancer than those who ate one portion a week.
(Also, once more, saying that those who ate more meat had a higher risk of developing a bowel cancer.)

Maybe I'm not getting it right... but isn't it saying here being a meat eater gives you a better chance of developing something in the bowels? It words it oddly, so it leaves me wondering...

Hence why I came up with this site.

http://www.livingwithcrohnsdisease.com/livingwithcrohnsdisease/life_with_crohns/diet_nutrition.html

It does say meat and meat substitutes are good, it doesn't just say meat. I mean, I'm sure there's some vegetarians/vegans out there with Crohn's.

And here, a study saying MAP, which is found in Crohn's disease patients, is found in 25% of farm animals...

http://www.shafran.net/crohn/PressKit.htm

So, someone, come and shed the light on this confusing thing that I am now debating!

Offline PanzerDivisionBOM

Re: Becoming Green
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2009, 08:38:43 AM »
@CrimsonxKisses:

I sympathize with your views on vegetarianism, though for different reasons. Crops produce several times more food per area and season than meat, making produce naturally cheaper and more plentiful. These are very desirable qualities, for the starving people in poorer regions of the world.

That said, I'm curious to know your opinion on ecological farming. As in, abstaining from gene-modified crops, pesticides and certain other yield-enhancing measures out of concerns for people's safety or aesthetic preferences.

Precisely what would you say are the biggest advantages of ecological farming? How much more sustainable are ecological plantations, compared to regular ones? How much would you say that safety issues influenced your decision? If these crops could be proven to be safe for human consumption, to substantially increase the yield of farmlands and/or to allow farming in areas that were previously thought barren, how would that influence your decision?

The reason why I ask is because I'm personally undecided on the issue, though not out of any lack of concern. It is honestly very difficult for me to weigh the benefits of increased yield against increased sustainability, though you seem to possess much greater knowledge on the subject than I.

Offline consortium11

Re: Becoming Green
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2009, 09:51:12 AM »
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/jul/16/health.food

Maybe I'm reading these two things wrong stated from the website above...

Yet results suggested the chances of someone with Crohn's being a meat eater were 40% greater than those of someone without the disease being a meat eater.
(Now is it just me, or is it saying meat eaters are at a higher risk or bowel cancer, seeing as Crohn's disease is in fact a disease of the bowels?)

There's a certain cart-before-the-horse theory at work here. If Crohn's disease can have its symptoms reduced by the intake of red meat then of course more people suffering from Crohn's disease will eat red meat then those who don't.

Let us take a hypothetical using the same logic; if all lung cancer sufferers had given up/never started smoking, then the "chances of someone with lung cancer being a smoker were far lower than those of someone without the disease being a smoker." (to use the same terminology). Obviously, that's peverse... but could well be true (I don't have the stats, but imagine that a lot of lung cancer patients give up smoking).

And I'm happy to be corrected but I believe bowel cancer and Crohn's are very different beasts linked only by the area they effect.

Last month, a study revealed those who ate two portions of red meat a day had a 35% greater risk of developing bowel cancer than those who ate one portion a week.
(Also, once more, saying that those who ate more meat had a higher risk of developing a bowel cancer.)

Maybe I'm not getting it right... but isn't it saying here being a meat eater gives you a better chance of developing something in the bowels? It words it oddly, so it leaves me wondering...


I'm not sure exactly which study they are using to "prove" this, but the last large scale study that I'm aware of on the subject (from 2007 and published in JAMA) was deeply flawed. It arbitarilly groups foods into two distinct groups and then, once it became clear that those studided who ate the "Western Diet" had a higher risk it then placed all the headline blame on red meat... virtually ignoring the other items that made up the diet... which are virtually all bad.

The study was also an observational one, which limits the results in and of itself.

Hence why I came up with this site.

http://www.livingwithcrohnsdisease.com/livingwithcrohnsdisease/life_with_crohns/diet_nutrition.html

It does say meat and meat substitutes are good, it doesn't just say meat. I mean, I'm sure there's some vegetarians/vegans out there with Crohn's.

There are no doubt... there are more than enough websites listing recipes. But meat is indisputedly the best place to get protein from for health benifits. The other main sources (eggs, nuts, soy, legumes etc) don't contain complete proteins or amino-acids (although eggs come close) and because of that you'll need to be incredibly careful with your diet and supplement effectively. Even then it's very hard to reach optimum fitness. Add in the risks of soy for a man and it's not a tempting area.

And that's without throwing in that most "meat substitutes" (as in vegeterian/vegan versions of meat) are woefully bad for you.

And here, a study saying MAP, which is found in Crohn's disease patients, is found in 25% of farm animals...

http://www.shafran.net/crohn/PressKit.htm

From the evidence I've seen so far it appears that while there may be a link between MAP and Crohn's it's far from conclusive and there's actually several strong counter arguements. It's still a developing area that deserves research, but is far from a smoking gun.

http://ibdcrohns.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.johnes.org%2Fzoonotic%2Findex.html

http://www.nature.com/ajg/journal/v100/n7/full/ajg2005271a.html

So, someone, come and shed the light on this confusing thing that I am now debating!

Likewise I've put myself through a bit of a crash-course recently (I've done some research in the past but had to relearn a lot of it), and anyone with a more advanced knowledge would be appreciated.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Becoming Green
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2009, 10:57:38 AM »
Don't worry about the small stuff folks things will work out fine in the end, or not, but I refuse to compromise my American lifestyle now for what Might happen in the future.

As for animals we may ,indeed be harming, due to our activities screw them Darwinian Evolution put us on the top of the heap as the DOMINANT SPECIES and we are to dominate the planet. Until nature fucks us over that could happen but damn it why not have fun now. If we did stop eating meat do you know the economic chaos that would happen with job losses and the like.

Now I for one hate wasting nature like killing sharks just for their fins and dropping them back into the ocean to die, if you catcha fraking shark eat the damned thing and make use out of it.

If a recycling option or green technology actually DOES save real money and the governements don't put money into the research then good. I believe if the free market is allowed to operate someday these technologies will be low cost and practical as they are made workable. I'm opposed when there is no need to waste money on Ethenol subsidies, solar power plants and the like just to keep the tree huggers and nanny state "green fear mongering" wackjobs employed.

Stop scaring everyone the American People are doing well the water is clean and drinking it if processed is safe, the air is generally far cleaner, we have food to eat, transportation and have other wonderful things they didn't dram of in 1900. As for poor nations they are not our problem.


Offline CrimsonxKissesTopic starter

Re: Becoming Green
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2009, 04:33:24 PM »
I'm going to put this into two parts, seeing as well, it's a bit... yeah.

Don't worry about the small stuff folks things will work out fine in the end, or not, but I refuse to compromise my American lifestyle now for what Might happen in the future.

As for animals we may ,indeed be harming, due to our activities screw them Darwinian Evolution put us on the top of the heap as the DOMINANT SPECIES and we are to dominate the planet. Until nature fucks us over that could happen but damn it why not have fun now. If we did stop eating meat do you know the economic chaos that would happen with job losses and the like.

Now I for one hate wasting nature like killing sharks just for their fins and dropping them back into the ocean to die, if you catcha fraking shark eat the damned thing and make use out of it.
If you're talking about shark fin soup, well, I don't think that's at the top of our priority list right now... and just because we are the dominant species that populates the Earth in no way does it mean we should dominate it fully. We're not the only ones here living, and other species of plant life and animal life call this home as well. Also, what does being economically safe have to do with 'having fun?' Some of you think I'm trying to get you to 'change your lifestyle...' There are tips, sites, and just general ideas there for people who are willing to look, or even take them into consioderation. We may be 'all right' now, but what about the future? I surely don't want my children and grandchildren walking around with masks on. I mean, come on, we have to do this now with the damned Swine Flu.

If a recycling option or green technology actually DOES save real money and the governements don't put money into the research then good. I believe if the free market is allowed to operate someday these technologies will be low cost and practical as they are made workable. I'm opposed when there is no need to waste money on Ethenol subsidies, solar power plants and the like just to keep the tree huggers and nanny state "green fear mongering" wackjobs employed.

Stop scaring everyone the American People are doing well the water is clean and drinking it if processed is safe, the air is generally far cleaner, we have food to eat, transportation and have other wonderful things they didn't dram of in 1900. As for poor nations they are not our problem.
So, our air is toxin free and non-hazardous? Take a look at any of the things on this site.
http://www.scorecard.org/env-releases/us-main-map.tcl
There's Lead hazards, toxic chemical releases, smog, hazardous air pollutants.... just look at one of them, really. New Jersey is one of the top factory producers where I live, and to be truthful, it's only a few hours drive away from me. I don't want friends, family, or an acquantince to have to go there, really. Would you?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 08:44:37 AM by CrimsonxKisses »