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Author Topic: Your religion's view on intersexuality:  (Read 2191 times)

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Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Your religion's view on intersexuality:
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2009, 05:16:31 PM »
I will agree that is a better term to be used.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Your religion's view on intersexuality:
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2009, 05:18:19 PM »
I will agree that is a better term to be used.

Offline quitefancy

Re: Your religion's view on intersexuality:
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2009, 05:19:47 PM »
While the occurrence of intersexed children is rare, it is a natural occurrence, something that happens every so often to a developing fetus. To say that we're abnormal is to say that our condition isn't natural.

I absolutely agree with you here. The point that I feel I need to make is that regardless of the numbers, 1.7% or .2% or perhaps even less- intersexed people exist. My dissatisfaction with the idea that we have only two sexes, or the use of the word 'abnormal' is due to the fact that we're speaking about actual, real people here. I don't accept that there are two sexes and only two sexes because we see that there clearly are not, in the natural state that intersexed infants are born into. I understand and acknowledge genetic 'abnormalities', but for most 'abnormalities' outside of intersexed infants, we include them into our language. You cannot negate the fact that there are thousands, potentially millions of people out there who are living an intersexed life without being recognized as being sexed by simply saying, 'well they don't fit into my societies idea of the two sexes'. These people exist. To me, it's like people claiming that they're racially colourblind. To say so is to negate the experiences and feelings a person has due to being a person of colour, or an intersexed individual.

The thing we're talking about here is really the human experience. I understand the claims that people make about biological situations, even if I don't agree with them. I think that linking me to an article that is meant to refute Fausto-Sterling's findings is, quite frankly, ridiculous. No matter how few the numbers are, intersexed people exist. What right do people who are sexed male and female have to limit others to only those two categories?

Offline PaleEnchantress

Re: Your religion's view on intersexuality:
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2009, 02:58:55 PM »
I was raised athiest and have a belief that is somewhere between athiestic and wiccan.

         My religeon is my own. It's views are mine. Still rather then just sum up an opinion I think I have some valuable experiences to share here.

         I was born intersexed. In many ways my upbringing is very opposite of Jil's. I was shoe horned into a single side of the gender binary. To make matters worst it was not the side I wanted to be on. My condition is called 5ard. I usually am a bit shy about my personal anatomy but i think I will just be blunt here. I was both with full but underdevloped male organs. I was diagnosed with AIS. My mother and father were told I would probably mature into a rather normal looking female but would need many operations to have full female parts. None were done to me at that time though (nor have they been since) 

        In a few years would be discovered to be a misdiagnosis. With 5ard they said I would grow into a rather normal looking male. I was still to young to remember that event though. I don't remember being told about it but I remember from a very early age knowing "everyone thought you were going to be a girl but you are really a boy".  While I am upset about never being given the choice I understand my family was not educated in these matters. Computers existed but the internet really didn't.

      My fight from there to here mirrors that of a transgendered woman with some different emotional and familiar complications. I can pass as male in public, and sometimes need to as so many documentations have been set for me. I struggle with things I should never have had to (facial hair!). Still I am better off then many. I see nothing abnormal or wrong about being neither male nor female. Physically mentally or otherwise. This is not the case for me though and I feel very strongly female.

      Family, doctors, and complete strangers have tried to put me oat one side of the gender spectrum. Sometimes people have huge misunderstandings about my body or condition. Some are understandable others are downright offensive. If they has instead put me at the other end of the binary would I have had a much more stable life? Probably. Truth is though that when it comes to something like this a 50/50 chance is NOT acceptable. I also believe children take on gender roles that are pushed on them. boys playing with girl toys or vice-versa is just a normal part of growing and experimenting. By time gender identity becomes truly important they will have an idea where they want to be with it. Even if the choice is "neither".

« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 03:08:21 PM by PaleEnchantress »

Offline Phoenix

Re: Your religion's view on intersexuality:
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2009, 09:41:21 AM »
I also follow the Tao. Though I do not call myself a Toaist, because I don't agree with most of what has sprung up about this wonderful book. So I'll post my reply based solely upon my individual understanding of the Tao, and support it with my reasons.

The Tao teaches noninterference. So if a child is born thus and so, then one does not interfere with that:

As a parent, you are the leader of your family, so to speak.

Verse 5

Heaven and Earth are impartial;
they see the 10,000 things as straw dogs.
The sage is not sentimental;
he treats all his people as straw dogs.

The sage is like heaven and earth:
To him none are especially dear,
nor is there anyone he disfavors.
He gives and gives, without condition,
offering his treasures to everyone.


This verse reminds us to be impartial to someone's sexuality. If one is woman, one is loved. If one is man, one is loved. If one is a mix of both, one is loved. The sun shines down upon everyone, the Earth carries us all. Big, small, male, female, transgendered, intersexed... it has no partiality to one over the other. You will never be thrown off the Earth, nor will the sun cease to shine upon you while it does upon your neighbor.

This idea is further supported here:

Verse 8

The supreme good is like water,
which nourishes all things without trying to.
It flows to low places loathed by men.
Therefor, it is like the Tao.

Live in accordance with the nature of things.
In dwelling, be close to the land.
In meditation, go deep in the heart.
In dealing with others, be gentle and kind.
Stand by your word.
Govern with equity.
Be timely in choosing the right moment.

One who lives in accordance with nature
does not go against the way of things.
He moves in harmony with the present moment,
always knowing the truth of what to do.

So again, if a child is born thus, then it is the way of things. The child is as loved as any other, and equally allowed to live according to their own Way (Toa).

Verse 29


Everything under heaven is a sacred vessel
and cannot be controlled.
Trying to control leads to ruin.
Trying to grasp, we lose.


Don't try to control the child's gender. It will lead to ruin. The child will know whether they feel right as they are, right as male, right as female. Trust their own knowledge of themselves.

Verse 48


True mastery can be gained
by letting things go their way.
It cannot be gained by interfering.

I think that's pretty clear.  ;)

the following is the last I'll post, and sums it up, I feel:

Verse 57

If you want to be a great leader [or parent],
you must learn to follow the Tao.
Stop trying to control.
Let go of fixed plans and concepts,
and the world will govern itself.


Therefor the sage says:
I take no action and people are reformed.
I enjoy peace and people become honest.
I do nothing and people become rich.
If I keep from imposing on people,
they become themselves.

Offline Jude

Re: Your religion's view on intersexuality:
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2009, 10:22:35 AM »
I was raised Christian in a very "typical" family, I think.  During my teenage years I sorta threw those beliefs aside and sought out my own opinions on things.  For awhile I was an Atheist, now adays I'm an weak Agnostic.  A weak Agnostic simply claims ignorance when it comes to the metaphysical.  I don't know if god exists or if spirituality is a nonsensical, but my default position is skepticism.  The important thing though, is that I don't believe it's improvable, just that I don't know (as opposed to general Agnosticism).  The way in which this functions as a world view really is that I apply the same skepticism and logical criticism to all things.  I have respect for and rely on for science and its methods, because of its congruence with reason.

Science obviously recognizes the existence of intersexed peoples, however it also recognizes that things aren't as simple as that.  There are many types of intersexed conditions which result from a variety of circumstances.  Developing a "third sex" concept, as such, may still result in an unfair labeling and generalization for an entire group of people.  At the same time, I do think a clear delineation needs to be made between those who are truly intersexual, that is born with a physical state that cannot be characterized as male or female, and those who consider themselves (I guess, for lack of a better word) transexual, people who believe they were born the 'wrong' sex.

I have the utmost sympathy for people born intersexed, not because I see the condition itself as a reason for these people to be looked upon as lesser, but because of the social slights they'll suffer as a result.  It's another example of the human tendency to fear difference and treat those who are different with disdain.  I certainly do not think that we, as a society, should demand that intersexed individuals pick what they want to label themselves as or have physical surgery done to force them to conform.

However, I can see the benefits of conforming (both for the society and for the individual) and I don't understand the benefit of parents refusing the surgery for their child as long as our society is this way.  Even so I would not rob a parent of that choice and believe society should be accepting of people either way.  Sex is such a small portion of who we are as human beings, more than anything I wish people would realize that.  The only reason it seems so damned important is society's powerful influence forces people to try and assume gender stereotypes as a method for finding an identity appropriate to you (instead of creating your own identity).

But I have so many beefs with the way our culture behaves, I don't really speak for any subculture, just myself.