You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 08, 2016, 12:01:52 AM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: Abortion doctor gunned down in Church  (Read 4252 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Trieste

  • Faerie Queen; Her Imperial Lubemajesty; Willing Victim
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: In the middle of Happily Ever After with a dark Prince Charming.
  • Gender: Female
  • I am many things - dull is not one of them.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 4
Re: Abortion doctor gunned down in Church
« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2009, 03:59:39 PM »
In any sort of free, reasonable society, Mr. Roeder would have had the right to boycott Dr. Tiller's work - choosing for himself whether or not to seek personal or professional relationships with Dr. Tiller, as per freedom of association. Dr. Tiller would have had the right to offer his services, and any pregnant woman would have the right to choose for herself whether or not to hire him, as they each see fit.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

I think a good way to look at abortion is the thought experiment - I forget whose it is - of the famous musician and you:

A famous musician who is very talented is diagnosed with a terrible illness that destroys his liver. He cannot get a transplant, for whatever reason, but there is the technology available that allows him to make use of someone else's liver. You are found to be the only person in the world with a matching blood type, and the musician's followers/fans/groupies kidnap you. You wake up one morning attached to this musician, and he is now using your liver to survive. If you disconnect the cord, he dies. If you keep the cord intact, you're responsible for the well-being of a complete stranger for the next 20-odd years, maybe longer. There is the chance you will come to like the musician, and of course there is the chance you may hate them, but you are stuck with him. The point is that you have not chosen this outcome - although you may have volunteered for it had you been aware of his plight, depending on who you are.

Do you disconnect the cord?

Offline Zakharra

Re: Abortion doctor gunned down in Church
« Reply #51 on: June 12, 2009, 04:06:49 PM »
 The difference is that the both of you are adults. Not an adult and a baby. If it happened to me personally? I'd unplug his ass and let him die. He stole MY life, MY body for his own personal and selfish reasons. Screw him. I do not want to be plugged in and immoble for the next 20 years to save some rich (probably a no hack talent) bastard's life.  With my luck he'd be a country musician (dislike that style of music).

 I would not have volunteered to give up MY life to be someone's blood pump.

Offline Trieste

  • Faerie Queen; Her Imperial Lubemajesty; Willing Victim
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: In the middle of Happily Ever After with a dark Prince Charming.
  • Gender: Female
  • I am many things - dull is not one of them.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 4
Re: Abortion doctor gunned down in Church
« Reply #52 on: June 12, 2009, 04:12:09 PM »
Ah, but he didn't. A third party acted without his consent or yours.

And if it's okay to unplug his ass and let him die when he's already a talented and contributing member of society, why is it wrong to abort a fetus who a) may not survive to adulthood and b) is completely a blank slate, neither good nor bad?

For that matter, why would you condemn a random woman (this particular thought experiment addresses rape victims specifically) to being chained to a random stranger for the next 20 years, responsible for being their blood pump for the next 9 months and responsible for the (highly expensive) process of providing for them for 18 years after?

Offline PanzerDivisionBOM

Re: Abortion doctor gunned down in Church
« Reply #53 on: June 12, 2009, 04:52:34 PM »
[...]I think a good way to look at abortion is the thought experiment - I forget whose it is - of the famous musician and you:

A famous musician who is very talented is diagnosed with a terrible illness that destroys his liver. He cannot get a transplant, for whatever reason, but there is the technology available that allows him to make use of someone else's liver. You are found to be the only person in the world with a matching blood type, and the musician's followers/fans/groupies kidnap you. You wake up one morning attached to this musician, and he is now using your liver to survive. If you disconnect the cord, he dies. If you keep the cord intact, you're responsible for the well-being of a complete stranger for the next 20-odd years, maybe longer. There is the chance you will come to like the musician, and of course there is the chance you may hate them, but you are stuck with him. The point is that you have not chosen this outcome - although you may have volunteered for it had you been aware of his plight, depending on who you are.

Do you disconnect the cord?

I like how the experiment conveys the essential nature of the matter. Everyone involved is put in an emotionally heartwrenching situation, through no great fault of their own, and is faced with their own set of tough moral decisions. That said, it suffers from similar problems as other "lifeboat scenario"-type moral experiments.

First off, no sentient being is created in a particular situation, without any responsibility for the choices that caused it. If a grown man has no money and steals food in order to survive, then this theft is one in an escalating sequence of poor life decisions.

The difference is that the both of you are adults. Not an adult and a baby. If it happened to me personally?[...]
This is true. The singer is a sentient human being, capable of negotiation and complex thought, unlike a fetus. Also, the victim in the example is presumed to be an adult human, capable of advanced moral decision making, which is not always the case with unwanted pregnancies.

The example does not specify whether the singer chose to be hooked up to the patient. He might have been reduced to a vegetative state before he even knew of the possibility, giving him no chance to protest at his fans' overzealous actions, or he might simply have chosen to go along with it. In contrast, a fetus has no capability to make moral decisions, and no say in the matter of which mother to be born to, if any.

Ah, but he didn't. A third party acted without his consent or yours.

And if it's okay to unplug his ass and let him die when he's already a talented and contributing member of society, why is it wrong to abort a fetus who a) may not survive to adulthood and b) is completely a blank slate, neither good nor bad?[...]

I take some offense at the notion that the singer might have more right to the body of another person, based on the fact that he is famous or rich. Should not all people have the same right to their own life and property, regardless of who they are and where they are from?

For that matter, why would you condemn a random woman (this particular thought experiment addresses rape victims specifically) to being chained to a random stranger for the next 20 years, responsible for being their blood pump for the next 9 months and responsible for the (highly expensive) process of providing for them for 18 years after?

Ultimately, even with the aforementioned minor caveats, I'm going to agree with you on this one. The victim in the example and a woman who is suffering through an unwanted pregnancy both have the right to do as they see fit with their own bodies, and only a morally retarded barbarian would use force or violent threats to deny either of them that right.

Offline Trieste

  • Faerie Queen; Her Imperial Lubemajesty; Willing Victim
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: In the middle of Happily Ever After with a dark Prince Charming.
  • Gender: Female
  • I am many things - dull is not one of them.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 4
Re: Abortion doctor gunned down in Church
« Reply #54 on: June 12, 2009, 05:06:14 PM »
The example does not specify whether the singer chose to be hooked up to the patient. He might have been reduced to a vegetative state before he even knew of the possibility, giving him no chance to protest at his fans' overzealous actions, or he might simply have chosen to go along with it. In contrast, a fetus has no capability to make moral decisions, and no say in the matter of which mother to be born to, if any.

In the interests of conveying the experiment briefly but clearly, I didn't go into a whole lot of detail about the musician, but the implication is that basically you're both in it together - he didn't arrange it any more than you did, and is faced with the same situation through no fault of his own. A fetus is in the same boat, obviously.

That said, no thought experiment is a perfect comparison and they all have limits. I like this one because it's very relatable, whereas not everyone you talk to - men especially, due to biological fundamentals (people only have so much empathy) - is able to place themselves in the position of a young woman who has just found out she's pregnant.

I take some offense at the notion that the singer might have more right to the body of another person, based on the fact that he is famous or rich. Should not all people have the same right to their own life and property, regardless of who they are and where they are from?

It plays to the idea that a baby is a blank slate. They could grow up to be the next Yo Yo Ma or whatever. They could grow up to be the next Manson (Charles or Marilyn, take your pick). They could end up giving you a lot of pride, or you could end up disowning them. You don't know, especially if the child is fathered by a rapist and could have genetic predisposition of some sort toward violence... whereas this thought experiment eliminates that and clarifies that the person is useful, talented, and doesn't 'deserve' to die. I think it's important since it takes the death penalty out of the equation - if someone is pro-death penalty and you tell them a serial child rapist has been hooked up to them, it's going to change their answer.

Offline PanzerDivisionBOM

Re: Abortion doctor gunned down in Church
« Reply #55 on: June 12, 2009, 05:53:43 PM »
[...]That said, no thought experiment is a perfect comparison and they all have limits. I like this one because it's very relatable, whereas not everyone you talk to - men especially, due to biological fundamentals (people only have so much empathy) - is able to place themselves in the position of a young woman who has just found out she's pregnant.

That comment caused me to stop and think for a moment. As a man, it is impossible for me to fully comprehend the emotional experience involved in a mother's bond with her child, and it helped to be politely reminded of that just now.

Thinking about it, there are a lot of complicating factors. The father might claim some say on the matter, and friends or family besides. Not to mention people like Mr. Roeder and his ilk, which are a lot more common in the world than we often like to think. And that's not even touching on the subject of rape, which I frankly cannot even begin to imagine.

Offline Trieste

  • Faerie Queen; Her Imperial Lubemajesty; Willing Victim
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: In the middle of Happily Ever After with a dark Prince Charming.
  • Gender: Female
  • I am many things - dull is not one of them.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 4
Re: Abortion doctor gunned down in Church
« Reply #56 on: June 12, 2009, 06:11:32 PM »
Yes, and then remember that the estimates of unreported rapes can go as high as 1 in 3 women. Out of every woman with whom I am intimately familiar, fewer have not been raped, so the question of what to do with the product of such a thing is very valid.

Getting back to Dr. Tiller, I think that it's incredibly distressing that anti-abortionists fight for the doctor's rights only when it suits them. Doctors/pharmacists/etc should be able to refuse to dispense birth control if it's against their religion... religion takes such a center stage in it that it's difficult to cut straight to debating on the ethics of things (as Random touched on up there). On the subject of death, I believe the death penalty is wrong. Always, no matter the crime. An eye for an eye does not cut it, for me. However, when I get my MD, I fully intend to offer my services as a medical professional to the state for executions, if the state allows them, and to hell with the AMA's sanctions against it. Why? Because as long as they remain legal, they should be done correctly by people trained to administer medications.

If you do not like the law, you change it. You do not break it.

So the fact that this doctor's clinic was the target of vandalism and his patients were the subject of so much hate is horrifying. The way that women who are even exploring a legal and possibly necessary medical procedure - and the loved ones that accompany them - are terrorized is unacceptable, and even worse is how this doctor was treated. And what about his wife? What about her life? As far as I can see, Mr. Roeder is guilty of basically 271st trimester abortion, which is as late-term as it gets, and far beyond 'partial' birth, eh?

Then again, I haven't seen anyone here say he's any hero, either.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Abortion doctor gunned down in Church
« Reply #57 on: June 12, 2009, 08:06:00 PM »
Ah, but he didn't. A third party acted without his consent or yours.

And if it's okay to unplug his ass and let him die when he's already a talented and contributing member of society, why is it wrong to abort a fetus who a) may not survive to adulthood and b) is completely a blank slate, neither good nor bad?

For that matter, why would you condemn a random woman (this particular thought experiment addresses rape victims specifically) to being chained to a random stranger for the next 20 years, responsible for being their blood pump for the next 9 months and responsible for the (highly expensive) process of providing for them for 18 years after?

 I'd still unplug him from me. Whether or not he is able to make his own decision, the decision to be his blood pump WAS taken from me. The fact he is/might be a contributing member of society is totally irrelevant. Being wealthy or a 'positive' influence does not give him or his followers the right to take away the next 20 years of my life to support him.  I was not given the choice. If he is in so much need, let him go out of the country and buy a liver that way. Or let him just die. Death comes to us all.

 That might be harsh, but I would take great offense if someone did that to me. I'l probably be beaten to a pulp by his fans, but f%*k 'em.

 On the other part, the woman,if forced to bear the child, does not need to be with or care for the child for the next 20 years. Adoption is a possibility.

 On the abortion debate, I would let the woman decide, but I am opposed to the late term abortions (3rd trimester), unless it is for the safety of the mother.

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Abortion doctor gunned down in Church
« Reply #58 on: June 12, 2009, 08:11:53 PM »
On the other part, the woman,if forced to bear the child, does not need to be with or care for the child for the next 20 years. Adoption is a possibility.

There's still being the blood pump for nine months there.  (In keeping with the rape victim premise of the original thought-experiment, I am assuming that the woman had no choice in the matter.)

Offline Zakharra

Re: Abortion doctor gunned down in Church
« Reply #59 on: June 12, 2009, 08:24:15 PM »
 Yeah, that is the hard choice, but you missed the 'if forced' part. A rape victem should be given access to an abortion if she wants it, if she gets pregnant. To force a woman to bear a child that way is horrible.

 But if she is forced to bear it, adoption is an option for her.