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Author Topic: Obama opposes detainee abuse photo release  (Read 2789 times)

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Online ZeitgeistTopic starter

Obama opposes detainee abuse photo release
« on: May 13, 2009, 05:42:21 PM »
http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE54C54Y20090513

A cynical person might believe, this was all carefully orchestrated to demonstrate to Americans, skeptical ones or otherwise, that indeed, Obama is concerned about national security. Which he may very well be anyhow, but I seriously doubt this whole exercise was just a matter of an honest change of heart.

Or did he just crumble under pointed pressure from opponents of the photo release?

However he came about the decision, I believe it was the right one.

Hmmm.

Offline Rhapsody

Re: Obama opposes detainee abuse photo release
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2009, 01:10:43 PM »
I think that releasing the photos to public consumption isn't going to do anything but satisfy our own morbid curiosity as to the complete extent of the atrocities committed in the name of "national security" and "homeland defense".   We know what they did already, we've heard declassified reports about the techniques used and the conditions in which detainees were kept.  We've listened to radio talk shows debating and newscasters reporting on the issues ad nauseam over the last year and a half. 

Do we really need to have the photos now too? 

I think not.

Transparency in your administration is one thing.  Pandering to this insane need to see the worst of humanity that many North Americans have is something else entirely.

Offline Avi

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Re: Obama opposes detainee abuse photo release
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2009, 10:20:53 PM »
I thought the pictures shouldn't be released either, due to the fact that people already knew what happened anyway.  They didn't add anything to the debate, really.  If anything, the fact that no one besides those who did it saw what was happening... well, that makes the need to sort this whole thing out even more pronounced.

Offline MercyfulFate

Re: Obama opposes detainee abuse photo release
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2009, 02:38:19 AM »
Releasing these wouldn't have any effect on our "national security" in my belief. Thinking that suddenly people will go "AHH KILL AMERICA" because of something they've already seen, and knew about...is silly.

We need to get over this paranoia and fear.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Obama opposes detainee abuse photo release
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2009, 10:39:18 AM »
Releasing these wouldn't have any effect on our "national security" in my belief. Thinking that suddenly people will go "AHH KILL AMERICA" because of something they've already seen, and knew about...is silly.

We need to get over this paranoia and fear.

 It won't, but it does give them added ammunition to use.

 'See?!  We now have pictures that PROVE they were torturing people!'

 That does not help us at all and the pictures should not be released.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: Obama opposes detainee abuse photo release
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2009, 11:32:55 AM »
It seems to have already been proven that America was torturing people. Releasing more pictures isn't likely to make that much of a difference to anyone.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Obama opposes detainee abuse photo release
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2009, 11:54:09 AM »
 Not to us, but the enemy can and will use them to stir up more hatred and anger.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: Obama opposes detainee abuse photo release
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2009, 11:58:32 AM »
No, I'm pretty sure that anyone who hates America hates it already. At least for those who hate enough to turn to violence. Further confirmation would simply be that ... further confirmation.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Obama opposes detainee abuse photo release
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2009, 12:21:13 PM »
 WE know that, but they will use it to help further their goals. We do not need to give them any more ammunition.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Obama opposes detainee abuse photo release
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2009, 07:24:36 PM »
Seeing something though is far from hearing about it.  People will hear about rape and murder without much emotional response.  Show them the pictures of a woman after the attack or show them a corpse, suddenly they have a very strong reaction.  So I have to lean toward the pictures being a useless item to release with potentially harmful side effects.

Offline PhantomPistoleer

Re: Obama opposes detainee abuse photo release
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2009, 03:13:23 PM »
The most damning content of the unreleased video is of an Iraqui translator sodomizing a child in front of the child's mother.

Obviously, the video shouldn't be released for a very obvious reason: the victim is a child.

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Obama opposes detainee abuse photo release
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2009, 08:15:32 PM »
WE know that, but they will use it to help further their goals. We do not need to give them any more ammunition.

American foreign policy has been so boneheaded that we have already given our enemies all the ammunition they need, long ago.

We invaded the wrong country, for Pete's sake.  Fanatica in Afghanistan aided and abetted an attack on us, and in response we invaded a totally different country, toppled a government that was opposed to those fanatics, and gave those fanatics a nice lawless area and a huge recruiting opportunity.

Really, could there by any bigger FAIL than that?  I suppose we could bomb India as a reprisal for Pearl Harbor...

I say release the pictures.  I'm an American taxpayer, and I'd like to see what the trillion or so dollars that could have been spent solving the energy crisis or finding cures for infectious disease were spent on.  Secrets are one of the first stops on the road to tyranny.

Osama bin Laden is still free.  Are we?

Offline Zakharra

Re: Obama opposes detainee abuse photo release
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2009, 12:33:01 AM »
 No. Releasing the pictures would give them more. It would incite more anger and violence against the US.

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Obama opposes detainee abuse photo release
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2009, 01:51:56 AM »
No. Releasing the pictures would give them more. It would incite more anger and violence against the US.

** WARNING: politically incorrect material follows **

You say that like it would be a bad thing.

Maybe it's time people inside and outside of this country get angry.  Maybe Bush, Cheney, and all of their henchmen should have their day at The Hague.

I'm tired of seeing the country I was born in--that I hardly even recognize now--hijacked by liars, warmongers, and thieves.  Do I love my country?  Yes.  But sometimes love has to be tough.  And right now, the time is long past to clean house. 

No more warrantless wiretaps.

No more secret prisons and indefinite detention without trial.

No more wars based on lies and trumped-up yellowcake and whatnot.

No more media that's the lapdog of the government and corporations...as if those are even separate entities these days, as the former has its nose so far up the latters' ass that one cannot tell where the first ends and the second begins.

Time for Republic, not Empire!

Are you old enough to remember when a citizen could tell a nosy government agent or cop, "None of your business!" and actually have the law on his or her side?  I am.

I say let the people take this country back...or let it fall.  Are we afraid to see our masters' handiwork in those videos?  Might we feel some responsibility as people of this fallen Republic and doomed Empire to rise up and take the reins to head off our course to disaster?

I say if these pictures cause an uprising against the American Empire, then so be it. 

Offline Zakharra

Re: Obama opposes detainee abuse photo release
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2009, 09:30:09 AM »
** WARNING: politically incorrect material follows **

You say that like it would be a bad thing.

Maybe it's time people inside and outside of this country get angry.  Maybe Bush, Cheney, and all of their henchmen should have their day at The Hague.

I'm tired of seeing the country I was born in--that I hardly even recognize now--hijacked by liars, warmongers, and thieves.  Do I love my country?  Yes.  But sometimes love has to be tough.  And right now, the time is long past to clean house. 

 [1] No more warrantless wiretaps.

 [2] No more secret prisons and indefinite detention without trial.

 [3] No more wars based on lies and trumped-up yellowcake and whatnot.

 [4] No more media that's the lapdog of the government and corporations...as if those are even separate entities these days, as the former has its nose so far up the latters' ass that one cannot tell where the first ends and the second begins.

Time for Republic, not Empire!

 [5] Are you old enough to remember when a citizen could tell a nosy government agent or cop, "None of your business!" and actually have the law on his or her side?  I am.

I say let the people take this country back...or let it fall.  Are we afraid to see our masters' handiwork in those videos?  Might we feel some responsibility as people of this fallen Republic and doomed Empire to rise up and take the reins to head off our course to disaster?

I say if these pictures cause an uprising against the American Empire, then so be it.

 It is a bad thing. Doing so would not help us at all.

   [1] The government is still doing that. A Democratic Congress, if you will remember, did NOT stop the Bush administration from continuing the practice. It did not make or pass legislation to stop it. 

  [2] That might change a bit and was done so without any pictures being released now. But guess what? Gitmo is staying open. No one wants the detainees we would release. Oh my.. guess they have to stay in prison.

  [3] Every administration has it's problems. We'll see how well the Obama one does and how different it is from dealing with the enemies it has and will have.

  [4] Lol. Where have you been? There is very little dissent coming from the media, print or video, these days about the Obama administration. Is there some? Yes, but it is a tiny fraction of the total news. Any differing opinion by the opposition media, mainly radio, some video and the internet, is mostly poo pooed and ignored. I can bet you money that if there was a Republican in the White house who had done the same things as Obama, the media would be ripping him a new arsehole.

 Governmental(and union!) take over of 1 if not 2 major car companies? Deeper control over the financial section? Any Republican administration would be being shredded in the media over that.

 [5]  We still can tell the government to take a hike, and have a very very good chance of winning any court case.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 09:31:48 AM by Zakharra »

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Obama opposes detainee abuse photo release
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2009, 08:10:30 PM »
For the record, I have no love for Barack Obama.  I will give him credit for breathing some fresh air into U.S. foreign policy.  The whole "let's ignore our enemies and refuse to talk to anyone we don't like" and the idea the world can be remade in America's image are tired ideas whose usefulness expired long ago--if indeed, it ever existed at all.

On the domestic side, Obama's policies reek of desperation and a foolish consistency: pumping more and more resources into failed institutions and policies in the desperate home somehow the unworkable can be forced to work.  Obamanomics is doomed to fail for several reasons, not the least of which is that Obama and Congress want BOTH a sound, profitable financial industry AND loan money flying out in tranches to prop up the housing market and keep the mortgages flowing freely. 

Well, it doesn't work that way.  The only way banks will ever regain long-term health is if housing values fall back to a baseline supportable by real incomes of real workers able to actually pay back their mortgages.  We still have a ways to go, especially when you consider that real wages of the working class have been flat in America for nearly a decade now.  The process of realignment and revaluation has been painful, and will continue to be so.  Obama's bailouts are just extending the pain.

To circle this back to national security, I think hiding the pictures from secret prisons is similar to trying to bury the toxic mortgages: the longer the truth is suppressed and ignored, the worse the consequences will be.  The truth WILL get out there.

Offline Happy an Nice

Re: Obama opposes detainee abuse photo release
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2009, 12:43:46 AM »
Er. I know better than to weigh in on politics. Let's just call this a post about economics, kk?

The Federal Reserve, unh, what is it good for? (in a nutshell)

Offline Lavaske

Re: Obama opposes detainee abuse photo release
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2009, 07:04:50 PM »
I think one extremely important issue that's being overlooked here is the victim's rights.  If I had been tortured and humiliated, I would want those memories to go away.  I wouldn't want my picture released on the news.  Spreading these photos for any sort of gain, political or otherwise, without the expressed consent of every single victim is wrong, plain and simple.

Offline Bayushi

Re: Obama opposes detainee abuse photo release
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2009, 04:45:58 PM »
I think one extremely important issue that's being overlooked here is the victim's rights.  If I had been tortured and humiliated, I would want those memories to go away.  I wouldn't want my picture released on the news.  Spreading these photos for any sort of gain, political or otherwise, without the expressed consent of every single victim is wrong, plain and simple.

Hate to say this, but...

Who Cares?

They're not citizens of this nation. They have NO rights not enumerated by the Geneva Convention. And given the vagueness of that particular treaty... even it may not apply, given that those detained are not enemy soldiers, but civilian combatants.

In the end... I think the photos are not being released as they would expose the Radical Left-Wingnuts' lack of evidence.

Seriously, folks...

OMFG! THEY PUT A CATERPILLAR IN HIS CELL! THE HORROR! HOW COULD THEY TORTURE HIM SO?! THESE WOUNDS, THEY WILL NOT HEAL![/u]

Idiots.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: Obama opposes detainee abuse photo release
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2009, 05:11:06 PM »
So by that rational you would be perfectly fine with being beaten and tortured if you were in another country, simply because you aren't a citizen of that country? That you would be content with being locked up for years, with no judicial review to determined if you were guilty or innocent of the charges leveled against you? With having activities carried out on you that meet international definitions of torture?

It may have escaped your attention, but there already is plenty of evidence that torture was officially sanctioned and carried out. Lack of evidence is not the issue here. The issue is whether or not further confirmation of Americas crimes would place its soldiers and possibly citizens at increased risk.

Would you enjoy being tossed into a cramped box, and told there was a wasp or hornet being put in there with you? Being deprived of sleep for 180 hours?

Then we have the waterboarding. Wikipedia has the following to say on that

Quote
Waterboarding is a form of torture that consists of immobilizing the victim on his or her back with the head inclined downwards, and then pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages. By forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences drowning and is caused to believe they are about to die. It is considered a form of torture by legal experts,politicians, war veterans,medical experts in the treatment of torture victims, intelligence officials, military judges,and human rights organizations.

In contrast to submerging the head face-forward in water, waterboarding precipitates an almost immediate gag reflex. The technique does not inevitably cause lasting physical damage. It can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage or, ultimately, death. Adverse physical consequences can start manifesting months after the event; psychological effects can last for years

To all intensive purposes, you are being drowned.

You cannot breathe, except when your torturers let you.

You do not know how long it will go on for, or if this time they will not stop, or perhaps they'll make a mistake. It will be done again and again and again until such time as you tell them everything you know.

And until they believe you.

Then maybe they'll do it again, just to make sure your story is consistant.

Perhaps you'd like to volunteer to have it done to you. I know a few reporters have, in covering the issue. Then you could laugh it all off, and dismiss it as harmless fun, couldn't you? I'm sure the fact that every one of those who have been waterboarded broke within seconds, or perhaps a few minutes, well, that doesn't mean anything, does it?

Think about taking a trip to somewhere in South East Asia. Someone hides some drugs in your bag, and they get found. You try to protest your innocence, but they don't believe you.

You're tossed into a jail, and all the things I've described here, they start doing to you, to get you to name your drug smuggling accomplices.

But hey, who cares. You're not a citizen of that nation, you don't have any rights.

Do you?

Offline Bayushi

Re: Obama opposes detainee abuse photo release
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2009, 05:33:54 PM »
Then we have the waterboarding. Wikipedia has the following to say on that

Wikipedia?

Err.... NEVER quote that place as a source.

To all intensive purposes, you are being drowned.

You cannot breathe, except when your torturers let you.

You do not know how long it will go on for, or if this time they will not stop, or perhaps they'll make a mistake. It will be done again and again and again until such time as you tell them everything you know.

And until they believe you.

Then maybe they'll do it again, just to make sure your story is consistant.

Other than the fact that medical professionals were on hand to prevent mistakes, as well as to make sure that the invidiuals being interrogated were not actually harmed?

Perhaps you'd like to volunteer to have it done to you. I know a few reporters have, in covering the issue. Then you could laugh it all off, and dismiss it as harmless fun, couldn't you? I'm sure the fact that every one of those who have been waterboarded broke within seconds, or perhaps a few minutes, well, that doesn't mean anything, does it?

Armchair quarterbacks are awesome, aren't they?

"Waterboarding" is a part of the course when us (current and former) military personnel attend SERE(Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape) school.

We get waterboarded... it teaches us to cope with the possibility that we may be captured in the line of duty and waterboarded, if not outright tortured.

The difference is that the enemy likely could care less what happens to us should they screw up. As opposed to our "torture" which was merely waterboarding three individuals, "high-value" terrorists, for critical information. With doctor's in attendance to make sure that the men were not hurt. THREE people, where the mental midgets crying about it act as if we were waterboarding the population of Luxembourg.

As for the caterpillar in the box... they were lead to believe that the bug was poisonous.

IGNORANCE is no excuse.

I'm detecting liberal failure and outrage. These idiots need to stop posturing for political gain and STFU and get on with keeping the country safe and prosperous. THAT is their job. NOT this extraeneous BS.

As for Akiko... well, she was in the JSDF back in the late nineties. Like the Americans, they have a school that trains in what to do if captured. She HAS been waterboarded, likely.

Not to mention, if done properly, waterboarding does no real damage. As opposed to the majority of halfwits throwing tantrums over this, I knew a little something about what I'd be going through before I went to SERE, and frankly... I was mostly unconcerned.

Now if it were REAL torture... I might be worried.

Online ZeitgeistTopic starter

Re: Obama opposes detainee abuse photo release
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2009, 05:37:57 PM »
We face an asymmetric, fourth generation war and enemy. Our enemy (extremists) count on and propagate exaggerated propaganda.

By all accounts we waterboardered  three (count 'em, three) high level Al-Qaeda terrorists.

Big frickin' deal.

If we choose to battle our enemies with one hand tied behind our backs, we will lose again and again.

And this fairytale of holding up our morales and values for the rest of the world to see, under the premise that extremists will be impressed and set down their AK-47s is a joke.

They don't give a damn about or morales and values.

Torture is not the first, second or even third option but it needs to remain an option.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: Obama opposes detainee abuse photo release
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2009, 05:56:10 PM »
Wikipedia?

Err.... NEVER quote that place as a source.

I've read details of the technique elsewhere. That was simply a handy place to copy paste it from.

Other than the fact that medical professionals were on hand to prevent mistakes, as well as to make sure that the invidiuals being interrogated were not actually harmed?

Not permanently harmed perhaps.

Armchair quarterbacks are awesome, aren't they?

Given the differences of opinion as to whether or not waterboarding was torture, experiencing it first hand would seem a fairly clear cut way of figuring that out. If I recall correctly, they all said it was torture.

"Waterboarding" is a part of the course when us (current and former) military personnel attend SERE(Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape) school.

We get waterboarded... it teaches us to cope with the possibility that we may be captured in the line of duty and waterboarded, if not outright tortured.

And was it done a handfull of times? DId you know you just had to put up with it 5 times, or 10, or however many that part of the course said. Might not be quite so easy to take if you don't know how many times you're going to have to endure it.

The difference is that the enemy likely could care less what happens to us should they screw up. As opposed to our "torture" which was merely waterboarding three individuals, "high-value" terrorists, for critical information. With doctor's in attendance to make sure that the men were not hurt. THREE people, where the mental midgets crying about it act as if we were waterboarding the population of Luxembourg.

If an action is wrong, then it is wrong regardless of whether it done to 1 person or a million.

If you choose to justify commiting the action, by whatever means, then do so, but that does not change wrong to right.

I'm detecting liberal failure and outrage. These idiots need to stop posturing for political gain and STFU and get on with keeping the country safe and prosperous. THAT is their job. NOT this extraeneous BS.

And you think that perhaps improving Americas image in the world community, and attempting to win support from the moderates in the countries you're in might actually prove beneficial?


Not to mention, if done properly, waterboarding does no real damage.

The information I've read on it would seem to state otherwise.

Now if it were REAL torture... I might be worried.

And the fact that waterboarding meets international definitions of torture would indicate it is real torture.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: Obama opposes detainee abuse photo release
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2009, 06:02:44 PM »
And this fairytale of holding up our morales and values for the rest of the world to see, under the premise that extremists will be impressed and set down their AK-47s is a joke.

They don't give a damn about or morales and values.

They're not the ones you're trying to win over. You're never going to win them over.

The ones you're trying to win over are the moderates. The ones who simply don't like you, but haven't gotten to the point of picking up a weapon. The ones who are in a position to be the future recruits, or who might simply choose to ignore the guys with guns passing by.

They're the ones you might still sway, and stop them from becoming your enemy.

Torture is not the first, second or even third option but it needs to remain an option.

As I said, if you choose to justify doing it, then do so. But admit what it is that you're doing. Repeating a mantra of "We don't torture" while engaging in activities that are recognised as torture just doesn't cut it.

And bear in mind that those are the activities that will push some over the line into actively becoming your enemies. Every action has consequences. If you choose to carry out those actions, then you deal with the consequences they bring.

Offline Lavaske

Re: Obama opposes detainee abuse photo release
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2009, 12:32:54 AM »
Torture is torture is torture is torture.  Any method which involves any form of physical or psychological harm is innately wrong.  Any results obtained from torture are harmful, because they validate these wicked acts.

I don't care who you think you are, or what team you believe you are on.  If you value yourself to be a caring individual, or idealize the values of peace, then you should not condone acts of torture in any way shape or form.

Anybody who believes that the only way to survive is to kill is perpetuating that reality.

Whether or not the United States government has performed acts of torture, it must make it clear that they are not to be condoned within this Nation's borders on ANYBODY, citizen or not.  Otherwise, we only perpetuate the practices of torture.

However, we must also strive to act in the best interest of those who have been victims of abuse.  If releasing the photographs is a torture in and of itself, then they should not be released.