Germany is not popular right now...

[Sabby]

So they go on a spree of anti-video game bashing, pass some useless laws, blame some school shootings, yadda yadda yadda, no biggy, right? Then they ban paintball and lazertag 'in wake of video game inspired shooting'

Yeah... that makes sense. And now we have this, a new water mark of stupidity that hopefully will not be raised for a long time.

http://www.gamepolitics.com/2009/05/12/german-researchers-see-pentagon-link-violent-games

[Ridcully]

Germany has banned lasertag (so called Laserdrome) already for years - I am German and living here. Our jurisdictions says it is against the Pride of Men (or worth, whatever) to be part of a game in that your only target is to shoot the opponent.

However, there are sublime differences. Paintball is not forbidden so far, since it has a "Team" character in it. If the game is rather tactical (instead of just shooting), it can't be forbidden.

I hightly doubt that any german law forbidding video games will pass in front of our Constitutional Court, though it is not out of possibility. One of my former profs is one of the judges there now. He's pretty liberal, so I have certain doubts concerning these laws.

Concerning the "bashing of Video games": It's an election year. We had some very tragic moments lately with kids killing kids, so the easy solutions are thrown onto the people. Please see it in this way.

EDIT:
Another things, those "scientist" mentioned up there - no clue who these people are. Nobody knows them in German really, except probaby their neighbours - and they don't really want to know them. So, just ignore it. We have our fools like any other country in the world.

[The Overlord]

Our jurisdictions says it is against the Pride of Men (or worth, whatever) to be part of a game in that your only target is to shoot the opponent.

What exactly is that supposed to mean?

[Ridcully]

My fault, chose the wrong term there. It's against the dignity of mankind to play games in that you are to kill the other. The judges think that Lasertag simulates killing other people. By playing, the one with the most kills wins. By these rules, every person is degraded just to being an object for the other - hence, every person included loses his or her dignity.

The German consitution also protects your dignity against your own will, so you can't come up by saying that it was your free choice to be part of lasertag.

Nowadays, some politicans actually claim that most videogames which include killing do the same degrading. Some games actually have been banned or not published in Germany, like "Dead Rising" for the Xbox360 - in these games, your only purpose is to kill people, and if it is funny (such as in Dead Rising), it would be banned soon - for saving the dignity of man.

However, if the game has a plot, you can't ban it even if includes killing. That is why most shooters and most horror movies are no problem (but age-restricted).

[consortium11]

IIRC Germany already has severe censorship on video games... I think Goldeneye got banned for being too gory...

[Ridcully]

Yeah it did. But it's useless. I got it from Austria then, like all the other kids.

[Silk]

Probally with the whole call all germans a nazi thing so german officials are bending over backwards to say "Were not friggin nazis or we would condone this!"

[Sel Nar]

I hate to say it, Silk, but you probably hit the nail right on the head; too many people, even now, still blame Germany, as a nation, and as a people, for the actions of only a small fraction.

So, the German government, frankly, is constantly fighting an uphill battle to distance themselves from 'The sins of the fathers', which is a lot harder than it sounds, and Video Games just happen to be 'Collateral damage' for the most part.

[setojurai]

So... when did Joseph Liberman move to Germany?  Or did we just clone him for their "benefit"?

[Apple of Eris]

So... how is germany not popular?

[setojurai]

Dunno, maybe France got some cool new toy to show off to the other countries or something.

[Sabby]

So... how is germany not popular?

You honestly don't see the stupidity in their 'research?' I mean, fanatics and idiots protending to be scientists is nothing new, but when their supposed findings are this rediculous, it tends to stand out.

Their claim is that the Pentagon is behind all video games and have released them, first in the 90's, in an attempt to turn our children into killers (its always about the children, huh?) they didn't do much research, as games were booming before the 1990's...

Ya know, its perfectly fine for them to be the censoring dicks they are in their own country, but telling the rest of the world its gotta take every game and every system away from the people is borderlining Hitler level.

[Ridcully]

Ehm. There are two weird "scientists" making up theories. Why do you come to the conclusion that "Germany" is demanding all other nations to ban video games? Don't blame the whole nation for the stupidity of two of their members. Yes, some politicians demand to ban video games here - in Germany. I haven't heard the idea of trying to ban them worldwide of anyone who matters.

[Chevalier des Poissons]

Their claim is that the Pentagon is behind all video games and have released them, first in the 90's, in an attempt to turn our children into killers (its always about the children, huh?) they didn't do much research, as games were booming before the 1990's...

Ya know, its perfectly fine for them to be the censoring dicks they are in their own country, but telling the rest of the world its gotta take every game and every system away from the people is borderlining Hitler level.

Now, let's wait here, mate. For the first paragraph, I say: whoa, conspirational theory leveled up severely there.

About the second sentence, I am sorry, but I disagree with you on that. Right, the theory is quite odd, and their ideas don't seen in the right place, but 'censoring dicks' isn't that much appropriated. I agree with Silk, this is more like "We are not Nazis" and stuff, so they are trying desperately to show the world that, but we can't simply decide that they are dicks and this is wrong. Come on, every country has a videogame blacklist, whether they reasons make sense or not. By thinking that way you are going to fall in the same mistake everyone does by thinking that every german is a nazi and every russian is a communist.

About this thing itself, it seems pretty obvious to me (I love to say that!) that there will always be this shitty theory that violent games make violent people, when it is actually the opposite. Damn, team, people don't mold their personality on a game's basics, they look for games that would allow them to express their full personality. That's why we have plenty of agressive people playing killing games, and that's why most people play warriors on RPG's, because they use to like to solve things in the hardest way on the real life. Alright, this doesn't apply to everyone, I am aiming for those 'not-like-the-average' people.

And this shooting spree on U.S is another stupid example of this unreasonable theory. It was repeated again and again, it wasn't a secret, that those kids didn't do what they did because of the game. No one plays a game and thinks "damn, I want to do that for real". The kids from Columbine, for instance, they went to shooting games AFTER starting planning everything. They started playing CS to practice their shooting skills (like it would really make any difference). The guy who played too much duke nukem and shot people on the cine, he was hallucinating. All those people where disturbed even before playing games.

So, this theory trying to correlate violent games and violent behavior is just bullshit.

Abstract: My dog smells good.

[The Overlord]

The US army has been using sims for years to train troops; the fact they pushed out games like America's Army means they can use it to get skilled hopefuls to enlist.

Military sims can make players better killers; but it doesn't make them killers, there line here may seem fine to some but there is a fundamental difference.

The fact remains is that the world is not a perfectly nice place, and there are powers and organizations out there that do wish ill on the US and/or its interests and allies.

When push comes to shove, that's what I hope our men and women in uniform are; better killers.

My fault, chose the wrong term there. It's against the dignity of mankind to play games in that you are to kill the other. The judges think that Lasertag simulates killing other people. By playing, the one with the most kills wins. By these rules, every person is degraded just to being an object for the other - hence, every person included loses his or her dignity.

The German consitution also protects your dignity against your own will, so you can't come up by saying that it was your free choice to be part of lasertag.

Nowadays, some politicans actually claim that most videogames which include killing do the same degrading. Some games actually have been banned or not published in Germany, like "Dead Rising" for the Xbox360 - in these games, your only purpose is to kill people, and if it is funny (such as in Dead Rising), it would be banned soon - for saving the dignity of man.

However, if the game has a plot, you can't ban it even if includes killing. That is why most shooters and most horror movies are no problem (but age-restricted).

I can see this perspective, to a definite point.

I do believe there is need for an age limit; seven year old little boys should not be playing realistic combat simulators or Grand Theft Auto. But a ban across the board is the height of arrogance in a governing body, and it assumes that entity knows better for its public than the public does.

When it comes to defiling the dignity of mankind, that's a very, very loose thing to define, if you ask me.

If you want to ban combat shooters for that, better ban Risk as well. Risk involves decimating foreign armies and seizing their lands.

Monopoly involves driving all your opposition into economic ruin; that's not killing them but it's fairly undignified if you ask me. But that's OK, because it's 'just business' if it happens. Even though Art of War is suggested or required for both warfare and business.

So we can see how a lot of it comes down to cultural and generational relevance. Here in the States we had to deal with the blithering of idiots for decades: First for rock and roll music, then for tabletop gaming, then video games.

All the while, no conclusive evidence has ever been produced that any of these media forms lead to higher crime and murder rates.

Each generation has its crack at becoming the next cultural eyesore; the intolerant racist uncle sitting on the couch in the family room that we try to ignore whenever company is over, because they can't keep up with the times.

Instead of putting them out to pasture where they belong, we elect them. Our current younger generations have an opportunity  right now to break that cycle of intolerance, by not becoming our progenitors.

[setojurai]

Funnily enough, I've found that military training actually improves your FPS skills, not the other way around.  The America's Army game is just a recruiting engine, trying to show how "Cool" soldiering is without showing you the godawful mundanity of everyday life in the Army.  It isn't really aimed at showing you how to be a better rifleman or anything like that.  That takes months of training and years of practice.  I don't know about you, but I can't go from using a 2 pound XBox controller to using a 16 pound M16 Rifle with no training other than the FPS video game and expect to hit the broadside of a barn from anything beyond point blank range.  Shooting requires a very specific skillset, and it's not point and click.  Twitch Gaming only improves your response time and your ability to distinguish a target from the surrounding environment, which is a good thing.  For the record, Soldiers loved Halo 3, but Call of Duty 4 was played more often.  Go figure.

[Oniya]

The game I'm playing now has a golf mini-game in it.  I've actually gotten fairly good at it, especially when it comes to bouncing the ball off of objects into the hole.

I still get creamed at mini-golf in the real world, and the idea of doing a round of 'the real thing' still sounds like an exercise in humiliation.

[setojurai]

So "Hack" the game and make up your own rules at Real World Mini Golf. *grin*

[Oniya]

That would be like 'hacking' Real World Lazer Tag so that the object was to avoid hitting the other players.

I'm just sayin'.

[setojurai]

Not really, but you can "hack" it so that your particular game rules are team based or "Monster" which is, one person is the designated Monster and hunts everyone else, who have to hide from and try to kill the Monster.  The person who kills the Monster then becomes the Monster and hunts everyone else.  Stuff like that.

[Sabby]

Uhm... I never said Germany were the ones that suggested it >___> I was referring to the two idiots who did their phantom study. Really, read before you blow up like that. The two researches did state that ALL games, everywhere, should be taken away and kept in the military. That was all I mentioned. If it SOUNDED like I was referring to it as if Germany said it, then I'm sorry I wasn't totally clear.

Srsly, read. Then comment -___- ffs

edit - apologies for the mood. bad day at work + pulled over by the police makes for irritable Sabby

[Ridcully]

Uh, i read it really. But your topic title confused me there. I am sorry.

[Sabby]

No, I'm sorry. Bad night = bad mood. Now that at least is solid science

[Ridcully]

  Our scientists up there, Hänsel and Gretel, would say: Ban the internet. It is only to cause misunderstandings to enforce international conflicts.
First comment of various German politicians running for Parliament: "Sounds reasonable."

[Thufir Hawat]

We have our fools like any other country in the world.

That probably sums it all !