Velma

[Beorning]

All right then.

Have you guys seen HBO Max's Velma? If so, what are your opinions?

Personally, I haven't seen it, as I'm not sure I want to increase this show's viewership ratings. But the reviews and scenes I've seen online do suggest to me that it's kind of awful...

(I think it belongs in PROC, as this show is tied to potentially controversial issues)

[Callie Del Noire]

I’ve seen it. It’s okay. Velma is black Daphne is supposed to be Asian adopted by a pair of lesbian cops and Freddy is a pretty boy preppy.

[Lux12]

Honestly, I suspect a lot of the hate is coming from the rabid anti-SJW types who will downvote, review bomb, or otherwise talk shit about any media that has people of color in the lead, especially women of color or LGBTQIA+ people. It's possible that the show is bad, but I haven't seen it. However, past events have given me reason to question the motives of people who trash media like this. It could also be possible it's not good but the backlash is also overblown. Either way, I'll actually have to watch before passing judgment. All the same, I suspect that even if it is genuinely poor quality that there are people who will be trashing it for those reasons I described scattered amid negative reviews by critics genuinely interested in critiquing plot, characters, animation, and other artistic elements.

[greenknight]

I think Velma is supposed to be of south Asian and Daphne east Asian heritages, like their voice actors.

Plot-based criticism I've seen revolves around these not being the established characters of later0setting incarnations. Yeah, it's the origin of how they became who they are in the later0set stories. Shaggy using his given name and being kind of straight-edge? I want to see how that changes to Shaggy. No Scooby? Pretty sure he'll show up towards the end.
Presentation/representational criticisms seem due to a story beat combination of kids figuring out who they are within themes of social commentary. And general backlash against Mindy Kaling, for a variety of reasons (including liking a transphobic tweet with a comment that basically calls it a white trash viewpoint; I don't know where else that particular accusation comes from, I don't twit or follow celebrities.)

I'm reserving judgment until the entirety of the story is fully presented.

[Oniya]

I was kind of put out by how mean everyone was.  Also, they're supposed to be 15, and the action is rated MA?  *cringe*

[TheGlyphstone]

Most of the criticism I've seen has indeed come from people saying the show is just a terrible representation of the Gang. Velma is an asshole, Daphne is a drug dealer, Fred is a himbo (okay no change here), Shaggy is neurotic, and Scooby is non-existent.

[Regina Minx]

All right then.

Have you guys seen HBO Max's Velma? If so, what are your opinions?

Personally, I haven't seen it, as I'm not sure I want to increase this show's viewership ratings. But the reviews and scenes I've seen online do suggest to me that it's kind of awful...

(I think it belongs in PROC, as this show is tied to potentially controversial issues)

It's pretty wretched. Being meta and self-aware of the tropes and cliches of horror movies don't work when 1) you're not covering new ground that Scream didn't cover 25 years ago and 2) you unashamedly indulge in the same tropes you're trying to be meta and self-aware about. I don't really care that Velma is Indian or Daphne is half-Asian and being raised by two moms or that Shaggy (sorry...Norville...) is a Black guy. I don't really care that Fred is still white but I will point out that the show goes out of its way to make him the butt of every mean-spirited joke they possibly can. I do care that Scooby has been race-lifted from a dog to non-existent, and the setting lift from a location of the week to high school doesn't serve the core of Scooby-Doo, since SD has never been and does not function as a high-school comedy.

[Lux12]

I was kind of put out by how mean everyone was.  Also, they're supposed to be 15, and the action is rated MA?  *cringe*

Frankly, remembering my time in high school, that feels more accurate to it than people would want to believe. Not so much the violent, but how petty and mean people could be. People underestimate how crass, vicious, bawdy, and utterly nuts teenagers can be. I mean, I spent a lot of my teen years looking into things that people would find off putting and hanging out in places on the web perhaps I shouldn't have. I found myself utterly obsessed with anything associated with 90s counter culture and transgressive fiction. Anything that gave off that cynical, Chuck Palanhiuk listening to Nirvana's In Utero on a loop while making dark jokes about murder, suicide, and other taboo things was as a drug to me when I was 17.

[Oniya]

Frankly, remembering my time in high school, that feels more accurate to it than people would want to believe. Not so much the violent, but how petty and mean people could be. People underestimate how crass, vicious, bawdy, and utterly nuts teenagers can be. I mean, I spent a lot of my teen years looking into things that people would find off putting and hanging out in places on the web perhaps I shouldn't have. I found myself utterly obsessed with anything associated with 90s counter culture and transgressive fiction. Anything that gave off that cynical, Chuck Palanhiuk listening to Nirvana's In Utero on a loop while making dark jokes about murder, suicide, and other taboo things was as a drug to me when I was 17.

Accurate, maybe.  However, that kind of action would get them a staff-smack if they were to publish it here.   

[RedRose]

Frankly, remembering my time in high school, that feels more accurate to it than people would want to believe. Not so much the violent, but how petty and mean people could be. People underestimate how crass, vicious, bawdy, and utterly nuts teenagers can be. I mean, I spent a lot of my teen years looking into things that people would find off putting and hanging out in places on the web perhaps I shouldn't have. I found myself utterly obsessed with anything associated with 90s counter culture and transgressive fiction. Anything that gave off that cynical, Chuck Palanhiuk listening to Nirvana's In Utero on a loop while making dark jokes about murder, suicide, and other taboo things was as a drug to me when I was 17.

In the meantime I got banned from watching Stargate until I was 18, because my parents saw the ONE nakedness scene... since then I'm very sensitive to shows that start with this only to not have it anymore. Those who don't want it still ban it and those who want it are disappointed. LOL. But yeah the internet was WILD then. I still have NIGHTMARES from middle and high school. Middle was worse, because by high school time kids here are separated into many different curriculi (sp?). In middle school, the kid who HATES everything school and struggles with reading is in the same class as the cliché geek or the goody two shoes or or or. The bullying is out of control. Then again in my times, at least, out of school there was no internet... So your home was your haven.

[Fox Lokison]

I was kind of put out by how mean everyone was.  Also, they're supposed to be 15, and the action is rated MA?  *cringe*

I got halfway through one episode and that's the exact reason I put it down. It didn't feel like any sort of new ground - it just felt like a mean-spirited take on high school cliques, disguised as a murder mystery.

I'm kinda bummed. I was looking forward to it. It didn't feel self-aware so much as it just felt like it was saying "yes, we know this is tropey, but we're gonna use it anyway". I didn't really feel like anything was subverted. Maybe it gets better later in the show, but I honestly couldn't keep watching to find out.

[tomstevens1]

I try to watch an episode periodically, hoping the show will improve (it hasn't yet). I am neutral on their updating of the characters. I love what they did with the DC universe with Harley Quinn, but Velma's writing is not nearly as sharp or funny.  I just think this spin on the show didn't work.  It is not a fun watch and that falls on the scripts more than the re-imagining of the characters.  And c'mon, where is Scooby?

[Oniya]

I try to watch an episode periodically, hoping the show will improve (it hasn't yet). I am neutral on their updating of the characters. I love what they did with the DC universe with Harley Quinn, but Velma's writing is not nearly as sharp or funny.  I just think this spin on the show didn't work.  It is not a fun watch and that falls on the scripts more than the re-imagining of the characters.  And c'mon, where is Scooby?

Warner Brothers told them they couldn't use Scooby.

https://movieweb.com/mindy-kaling-velma-no-scooby-doo/

[Keelan]

I got halfway through one episode and that's the exact reason I put it down. It didn't feel like any sort of new ground - it just felt like a mean-spirited take on high school cliques, disguised as a murder mystery.

I'm kinda bummed. I was looking forward to it. It didn't feel self-aware so much as it just felt like it was saying "yes, we know this is tropey, but we're gonna use it anyway". I didn't really feel like anything was subverted. Maybe it gets better later in the show, but I honestly couldn't keep watching to find out.

I try to watch an episode periodically, hoping the show will improve (it hasn't yet). I am neutral on their updating of the characters. I love what they did with the DC universe with Harley Quinn, but Velma's writing is not nearly as sharp or funny.  I just think this spin on the show didn't work.  It is not a fun watch and that falls on the scripts more than the re-imagining of the characters.  And c'mon, where is Scooby?

I - sadly - "watched" the whole thing, and honestly? It doesn't get better. In fact arguably it gets worse.

[Chantarelle]

I wish the re-makes would stop. Original stories and characters would eliminate much controversy I feel.

[Regina Minx]

I wish the re-makes would stop. Original stories and characters would eliminate much controversy I feel.

Three reasons to reboot, reimagine, and remake over original characters.

1) Brand recognition
2) Marketability
3) Money

[Chantarelle]

Yes, I completely understand why they do it, I just find it uninspired and depressing and prefer that they would stop. I don’t think it does much good for the creative mind or culture in general. Every time another remake is announced I swear I can hear a very loud collective groan.

[Oniya]

Yes, I completely understand why they do it, I just find it uninspired and depressing and prefer that they would stop. I don’t think it does much good for the creative mind or culture in general. Every time another remake is announced I swear I can hear a very loud collective groan.

Pretty much this.  I want to see and read and hear things that I haven't experienced before, through lenses I don't normally wear.  The 'teenaged mystery solvers' trope is wide enough that they could have created - heck, this same crew (maybe without all the blatant hostility) - and done a good job with it.

[Beorning]

The Scooby Doo franchise is a little different when it comes to remakes, because these shows do keep reinventing themselves. Just look at Be Cool, Scooby Doo - it's also quite dissimilar to the original show, but it still manages to be watchable. The problem with Velma is not that it's different - the problem is that it's unfunny and that its take on the characters is awful...

[Thufir Hawat]

Every time another remake is announced I swear I can hear a very loud collective groan.

I'm usually adding my part in it !

[Regina Minx]

I'm usually adding my part in it !

There are notable exceptions. Even in the Scooby Doo franchise. Mystery Incorporated is probably the best version of the story and characters. It’s the comedic lovecraftian element story I never knew I needed in my Scooby Doo.

[TheGlyphstone]

I'd say the more room for variation the original story had, the easier it is to do a remake. Scooby-Doo, at its core, is incredibly simple - four teens and a dog, driving around in a van, solving mysteries. Every prior iteration of the show kept that basic framework and applied a different spin to make it unique.

[SapientPrimate]

Remakes and reimaginings can be really great things.  Just look at the HBO Max Harley Quinn show as an example of this done right.  The show is incredibly watchable, sometimes moving, sometimes hilarious.  The difference between it and Velma is that Harley Quinn remixes and reuses the original material out of genuine love and affection for that source material.  The characters might be satires of themselves, but they are recognizably themselves.  Velma just feels like it has nothing but contempt for its source material and its audience.

[GloomCookie]

The same can be said for Star Trek. Discovery's first and second seasons were... ok. From what I understand, a lot of the hate and vitriol caused a lot of the show runners to stop and realize they were alienating their own fan base, and so while they tried to correct the ship a bit with Discovery and later Picard, they decided to stick to what worked for Lower Decks and Strange New Worlds.

Too many of these guys seem convinced their "bold new direction" will be a hit just because they apply a thin veneer on top of a popular franchise while not understanding the core of what worked. The characters could have been any four random teenagers in high school who find themselves solving mysteries together, it would have flopped because there's no story. But because it has Scooby Doo slapped on the tin, suddenly it's a bunch of problematic fans who are afraid of change.

It also doesn't help the executive producer has basically turned this into a self-insert of herself to be edgy. Her name is all over this because she wants to make sure everyone knows it's her baby. That also means that this shit-show has her name all over it too.

I'm getting so tired of these tactics to try and avoid criticism. They're afraid to take changes and invest in good ideas so they instead pull a Prometheus and try to hide the garbage under appealing fat when they present these terrible ideas to their corporate overlords.

Bleh.

[Oniya]

And you have to consider that most of the Daphne/Velma fanfic is written by these same fans...  Totally scared of change, yep. 

(Also, 'grats on the Greek myth reference.  For a brief moment, I thought you were going for the Alien franchise.)