Ace Identity and Orientation in Media Industry

[AlizsahTheBard]

Often MovieBros say that actors should be allowed to play gay/trans or even people from unique cultures. But my question is since more actors are coming Ace or Ace Adjacent, should they be able to avoid sex scenes?

What brought this on was Matt Smith complaining the amount of sex in House of the Dragon. Despite role being required to have sex, should actors be forced to act out the scene to keep lord-nerds happy?

I say no obviously and think if you don't favour sex scenes in a series you should be able to refuse and not have to do them for any reason when acting.

[Iniquitous]

Often MovieBros say that actors should be allowed to play gay/trans or even people from unique cultures. But my question is since more actors are coming Ace or Ace Adjacent, should they be able to avoid sex scenes?

What brought this on was Matt Smith complaining the amount of sex in House of the Dragon. Despite role being required to have sex, should actors be forced to act out the scene to keep lord-nerds happy?

I say no obviously and think if you don't favour sex scenes in a series you should be able to refuse and not have to do them for any reason when acting.

If the role specifies that sex scenes are part of it and the actor refuses to do the scenes then he/she/they should be replaced.  Acting is a job just like any other.  You can't walk into any job after being hired and say "oh, that part of the job? I'm not doing it." and expect to remain hired.  There is no one, even those who didn't watch Game of Thrones, that can say they didn't know GoT was sex scene heavy and that HotD was very likely going to be in the same vein.

Accommodations can be attempted in any situation where the actor doesn't know (for whatever unlikely reason) that sex scenes are required, but they should not be allowed to just refuse sex scenes -after- taking the job knowing what was required.

[Oniya]

Man, it used to be that 'not doing sex scenes' was a fairly standard stipulation.  Even nude/partially nude scenes.  I'm pretty sure that some of the classic actors and actresses had body-doubles/stand-ins for showing bits that they didn't want to put on public display when the role absolutely called for physical intimacy.

Two seconds on Google found me a list of some current top-names that won't do nude scenes for a variety of reasons (some of whom have enlisted body-doubles), and when you've got Samuel L. Jackson on your side - well, you've got some serious backup.

[Jag]

Actors are paid to entertain us and bring to life a story. They are still people though. People with every right to say "No" as anyone else. Even if it was discussed prior, they have the right to change their mind. We don't know the state of someone's mind. What they were comfortable with during contract negotiations and what they care comfortable with weeks/months/years down the road are very different things. Ace or not, they have the right to change their mind. A contract cannot tell someone that they must be nude or partake in scenes of intimacy, no matter what anyone says. Their body is still their body. Perhaps they were okay with it when they read it because they did not realize just how graphic it would be, then when the time came they had a "Oh, this is too much for me" moment. It doesn't matter the reason. Performers are humans and they have the right to change their mind.

Yes, they are being paid and they agreed to it at first...but we don't own them and they don't owe us sex, nudity, or intimacy on camera. Like Oniya said, body doubles have been used for years. Sure, there are going to be plenty of people who pick a scene apart and can say "Oh! That's not them! They don't have that kind of dimple on their right ass cheek in real life!" but who cares so long as the show is enjoyable. Does knowing that there was a body double make the show less enjoyable? I don't think it should. Just because someone does not want to do intimate scenes doesn't mean they are not the best person for the part. I'd rather watch a body double than some actor who is clearly uncomfortable with the situation. Unless the entire show's storyline hinges on sex scenes, I don't think it should matter if the actor wants to do it or not.

I don't think it has much to do with being Ace. I feel like it's just comes down to allowing people to decide where the line is drawn on set. It's a job and it should be treated like any job. I am allowed to say no to things that make me uncomfortable at work, why can't they? Managers at my job are require to participate in certain activities to promote morale and recruitment, but I can still say no and not have my job at risk. I can say no to having water balloons of paint thrown at me or dressing up for a recruitment video, cause I can do something else instead. Why can't an actor have a body double or say no to nudity when they are clearly carrying other parts of the role just fine?

I do feel that actors should do the job they were hired to do, however, sex and nudity should not be held to that. It's one thing to say "You were hired to say these lines and jump over that crate" and it's another to say "Your comfort in showing your body to the world means nothing, now take off your pants". Consent is consent no matter the medium it is being portrayed in.

[Callie Del Noire]

Yeah. I’ve heard of actors using spouses as body doubles for intimate scenes and if I recall correctly even GoT used body doubles

[stormwyrm]

Emilia Clarke has herself spoken candidly about the experience of filming nudity on Game of Thrones:

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/nov/20/emilia-clarke-game-of-thrones-nude-scenes-were-terrifying
https://www.marieclaire.com/celebrity/a27580929/emilia-clarke-nudity-fifty-shades/

She doesn't owe her fans anything. If she ever does any more nude scenes in the future they'll be on her terms, and that is as it should be.

[AlizsahTheBard]

I don't think it has much to do with being Ace. I feel like it's just comes down to allowing people to decide where the line is drawn on set. It's a job and it should be treated like any job. I am allowed to say no to things that make me uncomfortable at work, why can't they? Managers at my job are require to participate in certain activities to promote morale and recruitment, but I can still say no and not have my job at risk. I can say no to having water balloons of paint thrown at me or dressing up for a recruitment video, cause I can do something else instead. Why can't an actor have a body double or say no to nudity when they are clearly carrying other parts of the role just fine?

Just to be clear here - was not solely implying that this is only Ace people. More so now people are more aware of this, I figured this will likely come up as a reason in future. I know actors should not be required to sex scenes or scenes or nudity. I do think as Ace identity become more common place this discussion will end up being a lot more common in the biz. So while yes this is not solely focused on Ace identity I see this as a catalyst, a watershed moment (no pun intended) for when Media industry will have to address this. They gotten away with it largely because people had few arguments against being forced into these scenes, but with growing inclusion and understanding Movie and TV Industry will be forced to address this.

I hope I made my point more clear <3.

Emilia Clarke has herself spoken candidly about the experience of filming nudity on Game of Thrones:

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/nov/20/emilia-clarke-game-of-thrones-nude-scenes-were-terrifying
https://www.marieclaire.com/celebrity/a27580929/emilia-clarke-nudity-fifty-shades/

She doesn't owe her fans anything. If she ever does any more nude scenes in the future they'll be on her terms, and that is as it should be.

Thank you for sharing this <3 - something definitely needs to change, TV and Movie Industry should not be able to force people into sex scenes or nudity scenes and if actors keep speaking up the reckoning may come a lot sooner than I predicted.

[RedRose]

I'm not ace, but I don't enjoy mindless scenes (and find most a turn off). In fact, when I did theater, I refused a few roles because of kissing.

[Jag]

Just to be clear here - was not solely implying that this is only Ace people. More so now people are more aware of this, I figured this will likely come up as a reason in future. I know actors should not be required to sex scenes or scenes or nudity. I do think as Ace identity become more common place this discussion will end up being a lot more common in the biz. So while yes this is not solely focused on Ace identity I see this as a catalyst, a watershed moment (no pun intended) for when Media industry will have to address this. They gotten away with it largely because people had few arguments against being forced into these scenes, but with growing inclusion and understanding Movie and TV Industry will be forced to address this.

I hope I made my point more clear <3.

Actors have had theses conversations loudly for years. As Oniya pointed out. A quick search about actors speaking out against sex and nudity and how sex scenes affected them will show dozens of articles going back many years. I disagree with asexuality having anything to do with it. The media has had to address it. They choose not to at this point. I have no issue with someone who is part of the ace spectrum advocating for better contracts regarding sex scenes and being part of the movement, I don’t see us as the catalyst for conversation that was already happening.

I do agree that those who identify as asexual have as much right as any other performer to set boundaries and be loud and clear about them on set. I do feel that they should speak up more about the situations they have been put into for a job and what they witnessed happening to others. But I disagree with the idea of us being a catalyst for this. It’s already started.

I'm not ace, but I don't enjoy mindless scenes (and find most a turn off). In fact, when I did theater, I refused a few roles because of kissing.

I’m indifferent to it. But I am more of a sex neutral ace, personally. Except kissing. That’s far too much intimacy for my liking. I’m more embarrassed and feel awkward about seeing kissing than I am at seeing sex on film/tv. >_< The fact that I know intimacy coordinator is an actual job on sets make sex scenes feel cold and robotic to me, so I largely just ignore them these days.

[Leon Weber]

This is another one of those things that I think is very heavily dependent on a variety of factors. Iniquitous brings up a good point that an actor stipulating they refuse to do sex scenes or nudity scenes after being made of aware that they will be a thing for the part they are playing and crucially after already agreeing to a contract there is a certain leg to stand on for letting that actor go rather than accepting a contract because you know its going to be a role that puts you on the map but later refusing to perform the parts of that role you knew from right out of the gate they were going to be expected to perform. Its like accepting a role that is going to give you a lot of screen time and you know its going to, but then refusing to play the character as the character is written entirely, not that actors dont add their own flairs to every role which they do but its one thing to read a script for a character thats loud, witty, and possibly even snarky and then deciding that you're not going to play them that way at all and instead go for a subdued, reserved, and overly polite mannerism when thats not how the character is supposed to be portrayed. At that point it seems like you mostly accepted the role for the screen time but don't want to actually play that particular character.

But actors do still have the right to set boundaries when discussing contracts and often accommodations should be made if the role of the character and that actors boundaries conflict, especially in the situation that the studio is approaching an actor/actress they think would suit a role really well. It is unfortunate that this is another part of society where power dynamics really do come into play. An actors/actresses talent, and desirability for a certain role is going to have an effect on their ability to negotiate a more favorable contract and set their own terms where as a lesser known actor/actress will have less negotiating power especially if they're not part of the actors union.

In the original GoT I do believe that they even went out of their way to hire several adult film actors/actresses for roles that were sex-heavy such as Tyrion's sex worker girlfriend which is a good strategy and she performed the role really well.

[Kuroneko]

As a theatre professional, I want to say that intimacy coordinators are absolutely vital to staging all forms of physical contact in the theatre and film making process. We've hired them in previous years at my university and we have them coming in for our productions this year as well. They're pretty standard in the industry now. An intimacy coordinator ensures that all intimate contact, from simple touch to simulated sex onstage and on screen is created in a safe environment, with the utmost respect and professionalism. Any film where characters hug, hold hands, or touch each other in any way likely has an intimacy coordinator. It's not just for sex scenes.

[Iniquitous]

Ok, so. Let me address this.

Do I think an actor can accept a contract that explicitly states there will be sex/nudity scenes and then realize that it is not going to work for them when it comes time to perform?  Absolutely.  I even agree that they can go into discussions with the producers and directors to change their contract - whether in the form of body doubles, changes to the scenes, etc.

However! If those discussions do not pan out for whatever reason, I have no issue with the producers and directors recasting the character because the actor changed their mind.

I do NOT agree with actors signing contracts to acting jobs that make clear sex scenes/nudity is part of the job and then just flat refuse to do the job or seek to resolve the issue.  As I stated before, I cannot take a job that I know for a fact requires me to do something I will not do then when it comes time for me to perform said job just flat refuse to do it and expect to keep that job.  I even understand that I can’t take such a job with the expectation of being able to work out some reasonable accommodation because that may not be possible.

Consent is everything. I agree with this. Consent can be removed at any point and time. I agree with this as well.  But that does not mean that the employer has to just suck it up and do what the actor wants.  The employer should try for reasonable accommodations and if that fails, the actor should accept that (s)he will be removed from the job so that someone else who can and will do the job as described can be hired.

This isn’t that hard (for me, at least) to understand and I am not sure if I am missing something. It really does boil down to the most basic building block of our society - and one we all fail at. Communication. 

                  Acting Job w/ Nude & Scenes
                                    |
                   Accept     ===           Decline
                      |
                   Yes   
                      |
                Realize Mistake
                      |
            Refuse to do job        ===            Communicate w/ Director
                      |                                                           |
             Fired/Replaced                                        Renegotiate
                                                                                  |
                                                                       Unable to resolve
                                                                                  |
                                                                              Resign   

[GloomCookie]

I have to include this just because it's gold.

https://youtu.be/8_FAs6muMl4

Anyway, as far as nude scenes I think this is one of those things that is unique to Hollywood but for a whole host of reasons. Even so, here's my opinion on the matter: If the work requires nudity or sex, and you sign your name on the dotted line, then you do it. If you don't want to do it, then you politely correct the mistake as early as possible so there are the fewest number of reshoots and bow out. Actors are supposed to be professionals and I completely understand not wanting to do a scene because you're uncomfortable with it.

Now I'll debunk my own argument. There are a lot of scenes where that very thing applies even without nudity/sex, such as the number of times actors have come away with legitimate PTSD from doing traumatic scenes. And sometimes you don't know that you're uncomfortable with the situation until it occurs. It might be that an actor previously did nude/sex scenes, and in this particular scene they have to strip naked, full frontal in front of the camera, and smear blood all over themselves in front of a group of people while they chant Satanic hymns, while the last nude scene they did they were alone in a dark room and you could only see their back. Those two scenes are in no way comparable.

It's not a black and white situation. I think if an actor/actress knows the scene is going to be there and exactly what it entails, then yes they are obligated. But if all they know is "There will be nudity" and then they have to do something crazy and they're uncomfortable, then yeah cut them a bit of slack.

[Thufir Hawat]

I am with Iniquitous and Jag here. Should actors be able to refuse sex scenes? Absolutely. Should they expect to keep the job? Only if the accommodation is possible. Is it related to whatever identity? No, of course not, every actor should have an equal right to do so!

One thing I want to be clear about, however, is that anyone raising hue and cry about the use of body doubles has no grounds to step on. I mean, would those people raise the same noise because a doll was thrown out the 5th story window instead of the actor playing the villain ?

[Oniya]

One thing I want to be clear about, however, is that anyone raising hue and cry about the use of body doubles has no grounds to step on. I mean, would those people raise the same noise because a doll was thrown out the 5th story window instead of the actor playing the villain ?

LOL - Of course, stunt doubles have been a thing for time immemorial.  Very few actors do their own stunts (Jackie Chan being a public and notable exception - and he can't get insurance!).  Even the Marvel movie actors (who are in fine physical condition) have someone to step in for certain scenes.

And why not consider simulated sex on the same level as any other stunt?

[TheGlyphstone]

And why not consider simulated sex on the same level as any other stunt?

Heck, forget the 'simulated'.  Actual porn sometimes uses "stunt cocks" in close-ups as substitutes for the main actor.

[Thufir Hawat]

LOL - Of course, stunt doubles have been a thing for time immemorial.  Very few actors do their own stunts (Jackie Chan being a public and notable exception - and he can't get insurance!).  Even the Marvel movie actors (who are in fine physical condition) have someone to step in for certain scenes.

And why not consider simulated sex on the same level as any other stunt?

Yeah, that was my suggestion as well. I can see why an actor might want to refuse making jumps at great heights, especially if he or she turns out to have a fear of heights. But I'd say that this might well mean the contract gets voided, especially if it was for the role of Super Mario: the Movie !

Heck, forget the 'simulated'.  Actual porn sometimes uses "stunt cocks" in close-ups as substitutes for the main actor.

...really? That surprises me, TBH. I mean, what's the point?

[TheGlyphstone]

...really? That surprises me, TBH. I mean, what's the point?

Endurance, primarily, from what I understand. Filming a (professional) pornographic movie is very much like a non-adult movie in a lot of ways, including the need for multiple takes, pauses to re-apply makeup, all sorts of things. Having a double to do the 'heavy lifting', so to speak, allows the lead to conserve stamina.