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Author Topic: US Navy 1, pirates 0. Kidnapped US captain freed; snipers kill 3 pirates  (Read 5326 times)

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Offline Apple of Eris

Unless you run afoul of the islamic militias that are taking over a lot of the south. Then you run afoul of Sharia law. Which would take me all of five minutes.

Offline RubySlippers

I just want to point out that the Somoli pirates are the one stable group keeping radical Muslims at bay from much of the country. They have the guns, support of the people and frankly economic power to be oddly the best stable force there is. Eliminate them and we might lose the North of the country to radical Islamic elements and their brand of justice.

Is what they do so bad deaths are rare, a ransom is paid and the crew and cargo is released and they do take decent care of their hostages by all accounts once in their areas of control.

Offline Apple of Eris

They're kidnapping innocent people and threatening their lives and you're asking if that's bad? Are you serious?

Offline Inkidu

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They're kidnapping innocent people and threatening their lives and you're asking if that's bad? Are you serious?
I feel a lesser of two evils argument coming on...

Offline RubySlippers

They're kidnapping innocent people and threatening their lives and you're asking if that's bad? Are you serious?

Yes the lesser of two evils. If we eliminate the pirates we are likely going to end up with a nation with far less civilized people to deal with. How many hostages were actually killed by pirates or raped or other atrocities as far as I can tell its very low. I think this particular case was aggrevated by the American ships. They just had to pay off the ransom and that the company could have done easily.

Ever think that maybe if these ships had decent armed men and women, suited to the size of the vessel that they would not be targets?

Offline Sho

Frankly, I'm with The Overlord on this one. Congrats to the SEALS, and...wow, what impressive shots. The bastard pirates got what they deserved...hopefully they'll think twice about looking at, let alone touching our ships again. Thanks, Overlord, for posting this! I didn't even know about this 'til I read it.

Offline Schwarzepard

Good job by the SEALs, l look forward to many more.

As a solution I recommend Q ships: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-ship


Offline Mnemaxa

The problem with this is legitimizing the potential for untoward activitites.  Say you have a company that won't pay the ransom.....

What then?  The pirates can't feed the prisoners - that's why they're doing this in the first place.  They can just dump them off....in a arid, deserted land, where they have no chance of surviving, being mindless sheep from First World countries....

Ah, but there is another option. 

The reason people pay the ransoms is to prevent the people from being sold into slavery. 

Because, really, what other options would the pirates have?

And if you doubt it would happen....think hard on it.  Name other options....and you come back to the one that makes money.

Offline RubySlippers

I pointe dout the simple solution have proper armed and trained security forces on the ships, some 50mm machine guns in key locations and seaoned ex-military ready for action. Pirates as I can tell will not attack ships that are able to fight back with good resistence at least by reports. It should be each companies job to provide such security or take the risk of traveling and getting captured.

Like I said its these pirates or armed Muslim nutcases taking over the entire nation, I would worry about American ships have the government either have escort convoys or have companies arm their vessels for their security. Let other nations worry about their citizens.

KUDO to our Navy Seals great shooting and all at least they had the right the Captain was an American but I blame the company for putting them out there with no defense to prevent the attack from hapoening.

Offline Zakharra

Yes the lesser of two evils. If we eliminate the pirates we are likely going to end up with a nation with far less civilized people to deal with. How many hostages were actually killed by pirates or raped or other atrocities as far as I can tell its very low. I think this particular case was aggrevated by the American ships. They just had to pay off the ransom and that the company could have done easily.

Ever think that maybe if these ships had decent armed men and women, suited to the size of the vessel that they would not be targets?

 By allowing it to happen, we would be accepting the price of hijacked ships. It would not take long for other groups to catch on and start doing the same thing. It also sets a real bad precedent that lets criminals be rewarded for bad behaviours because people are afraid of the consequences.


 Scenario:
 Pirates: Stop, we are boarding  and will hold your ship until your company pays into the Somali Pirates Children Fund. Your money goes to feed our families and keeps the radical Islamists from taking over completely. Praise Allah! *chambers a round, muzzle at the crew member's head* 


Offline HairyHeretic

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As a solution I recommend Q ships: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-ship

Funny, I was just wondering if that would be a viable option myself.

Offline The OverlordTopic starter


Blowing up pirates isn't alleviating the core root of the problem. The problem is you have a country that has broken down, with no real control at all, a poor and hungry popluace that has little hope or options other than war/crime because they have no stability.

And since you have large ships passing relatively close by, and owned by companies that have millions of dollars, and having shown that you can get millions of dollars by commiting the crime... It's a no brainer really.

It's just like the drug trade, as long as theres a chance to make a hell of a lot of money, you're going to find someone desperate or crazy enough to try it. The difference here is that you have no military/police force able to control the ports these pirates use. Till that happens, better get used to a lot of piracy based out of the horn.


Somalia has been spiraling for years; it's the African edition of Haiti, with regimes or powers that come and go with the support of groups and influences both foreign and domestic.

Fixing Somalia would be great, and settle a lot of problems, no doubts there. Even in a best case scenario of firm international cooperation and effort, fixing Somalia would be a very long term project. Problem is, there's been no genuine international interest or effort in lifting Somalia out of the commode it's been floating in for many years now, and a drastically improved Somalia isn't even on the horizon at this point.

In the meantime, the piracy coming from Somalian shores is delivering an immediate and potentially lethal threat to international shipping and crews. These days you can't even sail a peaceful cruise ship past African coastlines without risk of being shot at and boarded. The point has been made that nothing that can sail through those waters is immune to at least an attempted attack.

Something has to be done about the pirate threat...right now, not twelve months or five years from now. letting them go about with their business will only embolden a faction in Somalia that is already cocksure of itself and long overdue for a humiliating drag through the mud at the point of American guns, or by any other nation with a vested interest and desire in seeing this stop.

What will stopping piracy off the coast of Africa do to help Somalia? Very little unfortunately, but pirates are like any other predator; at the end of the day the law of jungle prevails. The United States roared loudest and struck hard this weekend, and is likely going to have to take the offensive from here. Predators hunt for easier prey, and they don't do it in sight of even bigger predators that prove they'll kill to hold their ground.


Yes, you won’t likely remove the desire from Somalia to commit acts of piracy, but you can deprive them of their means. Taking out all potential pirates would likely involve killing far more Somalians than the international community would be willing or even able to do, but no pirate ever took a ship by swimming out to sea. You kill their fleet of ships and the means to organize them, such as bases of operation, and the threat is removed.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 05:47:32 AM by The Overlord »

Offline Inkidu

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I think if Somalia keeps acting up we need to let those poor fly boys on the carriers have a couple of shots.

Offline Schwarzepard

I pointe dout the simple solution have proper armed and trained security forces on the ships, some 50mm machine guns in key locations and seaoned ex-military ready for action.

I would like to see these 50mm machineguns!

Here are the issues I see with this:

A security force of any size would significantly increase the crew of the ship, which would make living conditions shit.  They would need to be paid well or they would leave the job, or just suck at it.  They would be subject to the laws controlling the use of force, where pirates wouldn't.  All it would take is for the families of dead pirates to cry to the media about how innocent fishermen were killed by evil ship security people.  These costs would make everything that comes by sea cost more.  Pirates often attack in groups of 50 more armed with machineguns and RPGs.  It's no joke and would require a comparable security force on each ship.

I suggest slaughtering them wherever we find them and when the Islamists that they are supposedly preventing from taking over take over, slaughtering them too.  They can hold ship crews hostage?  We can hold that whole country hostage.  The weakness, of course, is in political will.

We could watch by satellite or UAV or something, see where the pirate ships come to land and blow the hell out of it.

If poor innocent fishermen complain, they can start the tradition of "Somalian Kick a Pirate's Ass Day", in which poor innocent fishermen beat the shit out of pirates in their communities for bringing shame on their good name and foreign bombs on their homes.


Offline RubySlippers

Or the calssic convoy have many ships with a few warships escorting, I suspect one larger warship or submarine per then vessels would be enough to scare off a pirate attack.

And again what do do when we take out the pirates and end up with blood thirsty jihadists who are right now checked by pirates and people that clearly support them. Pirates still seem to be honorable a bloodthirsty screaming Muslim nutcase is not. I think the US though should escort OUR ships through those waters with proper convoys and let other countries protect their people if they care to.


Offline Inkidu

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Or the calssic convoy have many ships with a few warships escorting, I suspect one larger warship or submarine per then vessels would be enough to scare off a pirate attack.

And again what do do when we take out the pirates and end up with blood thirsty jihadists who are right now checked by pirates and people that clearly support them. Pirates still seem to be honorable a bloodthirsty screaming Muslim nutcase is not. I think the US though should escort OUR ships through those waters with proper convoys and let other countries protect their people if they care to.
What a romantic notion.

Offline RubySlippers

Why romantic? Ships under our flag at sea or carrying goods to the United States have a right to our naval protection and convoys do work just look at WW II. All one needs is one decent warship showing the flag and with orders to sink any vessel showing hostile intent to the convoy and deal with it. Let other nations protect their ships. Its also a better use of our ships one ship could defend ten large cargo vessels if the ship has attack helicopters it would be even a better visible threat to any such attackers. Right now there are just not enough ships for the ocean that must be covered so this makes excellent sense.

And if we decide to attack the pirate base towns we will just end up making this worse, attacking the pirates under our Rules of Engagement will not effective. My option is the best one defend our own and use whatever force is needed just be clear there is a zone around the convoy that is a clear fire zone to pirates.

Offline Inkidu

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To think what the pirates are doing is honorable.

Offline Zakharra

And if we decide to attack the pirate base towns we will just end up making this worse, attacking the pirates under our Rules of Engagement will not effective. My option is the best one defend our own and use whatever force is needed just be clear there is a zone around the convoy that is a clear fire zone to pirates.

 It's the best one you see, not necessarily the best one others see. The problem needs to be dealt with at the sourece, and that means eventualy taking out the pirates bases. Motherships at first, then (hopefully) specifically targeted strikes on the ports that let them operate in them.

Offline Vekseid


Offline Zeitgeist

For a completely different take on the Somalian pirate problem

So, we are to believe that at the same time Europeans are dumping their nuclear and mercury waste offshore from Somalia, those same Europeans are gobbling up all the sources of seafood, presumably in the same waters?

Don't make a lick o' sense to me.

Offline Inkidu

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So, we are to believe that at the same time Europeans are dumping their nuclear and mercury waste offshore from Somalia, those same Europeans are gobbling up all the sources of seafood, presumably in the same waters?

Don't make a lick o' sense to me.
That tends to not go over well on sushi night...

Offline Zeitgeist

For a completely different take on the Somalian pirate problem

So I did a bit of searching on the UN website for this fella named Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, who is the UN representative to Somalia and quoted in the above article, charging that Europeans are dumping nuclear waster and stealing seafood from Somalia's waters.

Well, the two links below are some of the more recent hits on this fellow and 'pirates'.

It seems, when given the opportunity, he chose not to mention said grievances. The articles are a little more than a year old, so they are not terribly recent but I see no mention of the grievances or anything more immediately recent.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=25164&Cr=somalia&Cr1=

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2007/sc9203.doc.htm

Perhaps he's a fraud, perhaps the author of the article is a fraud, perhaps they both are.

...but ah hah! Here is something much more recent, April 9th, 2009.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=30447&Cr=somalia&Cr1=piracy

“Their proliferation is an insult to international legality but also an invitation to the international community to bring an appropriate and new support to the Somali authorities to help them address effectively the root causes of piracy,” said Mr. Ould-Abdallah.

The author of that article, Johann Hari is most assuredly a fraud.

..and yet, here are two articles that in fact back up the author's story:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article418665.ece

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2008/10/2008109174223218644.html
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 08:54:05 PM by Zamdrist of Zeitgeist »

Offline Zakharra

 Hah!  ;D  The Europeans can't blame the US for this mess. It's all their fault.

Offline Destiny Ascension

That's the America I know! Hoo-rah! Good thing they didn't use the Marines.

Yeah, we would have made the pirates shit themselves before we gave them a stern ass kicking.

Normally, I don't think much of squids, but SEALs damn hardcore. Hooyah!