Ignorance

[Azy]

This is a rant, but it concerns abortions, so I'm thinking it goes here.  Someone just told me that even though a good friend of mine had acclampsia (sp?) with her daughter, then was raped by her ex husband at got pregnant from that, she just had to deal with it.  It didn't matter.  I was using it as an example of why a woman should have a choice.  Very high and potentially fatal blood pressure like that, if it happened once, there was a good chance it could happen again.  She found out too late, and was just set up with a high risk pregnancy specialist.  But in that position, if she had found out early enough, she should've had a choice of weather or not to risk her life like that.  This woman says no.  She was raped, and if she had gotten pregnant from that rape she would have dealt with it.  She's seen stories of women getting abducted and found years later with kids, and they love those kids.  When bad shit happens, you just have to deal with it.  And if a baby is involved, you don't get to play god and commit murder. 

She doesn't argue against ectopic pregnancy because in that case the baby will never be viable before it kills the mother.  That is always fatal.  She claims that if a baby dies in the womb, removing it is not abortion.  Yes, yes it is.  She claims she worked in a maternity ward, and that is just considered miscarriage.  The death of the baby yes, but the procedure to remove it from the mother's body is an abortion. 

She believes the videos she has seen of barrels of dead babies sitting behind a Planned Parenthood building are real.  The videos of live babies being ripped apart in the womb just make her sick.  She will not listen to the truth.  If you don't want to have a baby, don't have sex.  People are entitled to their beliefs, but willful ignorance just drives me crazy.  She's had DNC's before for medical issues, and I tried to tell her that most abortions are exactly that.  Nope, I'm making that up.  Evil people just go in and kill fully formed babies against God's will. Grrrr.....       

[Beorning]

She doesn't argue against ectopic pregnancy because in that case the baby will never be viable before it kills the mother.  That is always fatal.  She claims that if a baby dies in the womb, removing it is not abortion.  Yes, yes it is.  She claims she worked in a maternity ward, and that is just considered miscarriage.  The death of the baby yes, but the procedure to remove it from the mother's body is an abortion. 

If I may add: people who make this kind of argument fail to understand how banning abortions affects such situations. And the fact is that, when you ban abortions, doctors are actually afraid to do what's necessary to save women's lives even when the pregnancy is hopeless and life-threatening. This is exactly what started happening here in Poland, ever since the near-total ban of abortions was imposed. In theory, the law here stikk allows for an abortion when a woman's life is threatened... but, in practice, the doctors know that they could be closely scrutinized for every such abortion. And they'd have to prove that a given pregnancy was directly and obviously life-threatening... otherwise, they could get prosecuted. The result? The doctors keep waiting until the last possible moment before aborting a pregnancy that's obviously life-threatening. We actually had at least one case when a woman died, because the doctors refused to abort an obviously hopeless pregnancy before the child died in the womb first... And it's not just Poland - the same things were happening in Ireland before they changed their anti-abortion laws.

So, yeah. If somebody says that banning abortions isn't a problem, because the doctors will still intervene in the case of "miscarriages", I call bullsh*t. Because in practice, the doctors do not intervene. They just wait and ponder whether the "miscarriage" is bad enough for them to abort the pregnancy without the risk of legal repercussions.

Not to mention, not all pregnancies are life-threatening. There are pregnancies that are "merely" health-threatening, i.e. carry the risk of a woman losing her eyesight etc...

[Azy]

If I may add: people who make this kind of argument fail to understand how banning abortions affects such situations. And the fact is that, when you ban abortions, doctors are actually afraid to do what's necessary to save women's lives even when the pregnancy is hopeless and life-threatening. This is exactly what started happening here in Poland, ever since the near-total ban of abortions was imposed. In theory, the law here stikk allows for an abortion when a woman's life is threatened... but, in practice, the doctors know that they could be closely scrutinized for every such abortion. And they'd have to prove that a given pregnancy was directly and obviously life-threatening... otherwise, they could get prosecuted. The result? The doctors keep waiting until the last possible moment before aborting a pregnancy that's obviously life-threatening. We actually had at least one case when a woman died, because the doctors refused to abort an obviously hopeless pregnancy before the child died in the womb first... And it's not just Poland - the same things were happening in Ireland before they changed their anti-abortion laws.

So, yeah. If somebody says that banning abortions isn't a problem, because the doctors will still intervene in the case of "miscarriages", I call bullsh*t. Because in practice, the doctors do not intervene. They just wait and ponder whether the "miscarriage" is bad enough for them to abort the pregnancy without the risk of legal repercussions.

Not to mention, not all pregnancies are life-threatening. There are pregnancies that are "merely" health-threatening, i.e. carry the risk of a woman losing her eyesight etc...

This is what frustrates the hell out of me.  I used to be against abortion.  Still kind of am.  However, when this type of information was presented to me, it got me to thinking and questioning things.  People who just bury their head further in the sand and think they are just saving lives drive me absolutely batty.  I learned that the reason Roe became law of the land in the US was because women who were desperate were dying from back alley abortions.  Banning things only creates a black market that has no oversight or safety. 

[Vekseid]

Eclampsia?

That sounds incredibly terrifying. I hope your friend got what care she needs.

[Azy]

Yeah, it was a while ago, but if I remember right she was put on bed rest for her third trimester and monitored closely.  She said part of the problem was the military hospital she had her daughter in was useless and the doctor was an idiot. 

[Iniquitous]

She claims she worked in a maternity ward, and that is just considered miscarriage.  The death of the baby yes, but the procedure to remove it from the mother's body is an abortion. 

She is correct. In the case of a miscarriage, the D and C done to remove the fetal remains is standard care. It just so happens that the procedure is also used for some abortions.  I've had a D and C yet never had an abortion.  You dont get to call the procedure an abortion just because it is used to perform some abortions.

[Azy]

She is correct. In the case of a miscarriage, the D and C done to remove the fetal remains is standard care. It just so happens that the procedure is also used for some abortions.  I've had a D and C yet never had an abortion.  You dont get to call the procedure an abortion just because it is used to perform some abortions.

When there is not a fetus involved, then no, it is not an abortion.  When there is...  What concerns me is that some of these laws being passed may make doctors reluctant to continue that standard of care. 

[Iniquitous]

When there is not a fetus involved, then no, it is not an abortion.  When there is...  What concerns me is that some of these laws being passed may make doctors reluctant to continue that standard of care.

It is your very belief that fuels doctors not wanting to do the procedure. It is NOT an abortion to medically remove the remains of a miscarriage. It is a D and C (dilation and curettage). It is only an abortion when the procedure ends the pregnancy that was still progressing.

Calling D and C an abortion in the case of a miscarriage is dangerous to women.

[TheGlyphstone]

The problem is that in a lot of the states passing these new laws,  the burden of proof is placed on the doctor to show it was a miscarriage and not an abortion. So its not an unreasonable fear that many such doctors might hesitate to perform such a procedure.

[RedRose]

If the baby isn't alive, it is not an abortion.

[Azy]

There is a lot of fear, and good reason for it. 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/22/us/gerson-fuentes-child-rape-abortion-indictment/index.html

That article goes mostly into the arrest of the man, but I was looking for a non political source.  The girl was 10 and had to cross state lines!  She was not only raped, but at an age where it was seriously dangerous for her to carry to term, and the state of Ohio said nope, you're passed 6 weeks.  No exception!  To me, that is seriously fucking insane!  Even someone attempting to rape you can cause PTSD, I unfortunately know from personal experience.  If the asshole who tried to force himself on me succeeded, and I had gotten pregnant from it, I was 16 and more able to carry to term.  Would it have been right to make me do so just because I was unfortunate enough to live in a state that had no exception for rape?  Some of these states who very quickly passed laws after the ruling don't have an exception. 

And as Glyphstone said, doctors now have to prove they were simply removing a non viable fetus.  In the case of ectopic pregnancies, the embryo is viable up to the point it ruptures and the mother's life is in serious danger from the internal bleeding.  You may say that well, it's common sense that that embryo must be removed ASAP because there is no possible to way to carry to term.  You would be right, that line of thought is reasonable. The problem is, reason has now gone right out the fucking window.   

Then there is this...   https://people.com/crime/pregnant-alabama-woman-shot-during-fight-charged-manslaughter-baby-dies/

That happened all the way back in 2019.  I'm usually not one to let myself be ruled by fear, but if a Grand Jury in Alabama in 2019 when Roe was still standing can make such a ruling, what's stopping this from happening more often now that Roe is gone?  What's stopping every miscarriage from being investigated as a potential DIY abortion and women getting charged with manslaughter?   

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/10/21/oklahoma-woman-convicted-of-manslaughter-miscarriage/6104281001/

In that case the argument is the mother was doing meth, the fetus had it in its body.  There was no law on the books at that time though, she was charged using another law about being responsible if a person dies while you commit a crime, even if you didn't mean for anyone to get hurt.  Again, what makes it scary was this was back in 2021, while Roe was still standing.  A prosecutor looked for a way to consider an unborn fetus as a human being with human rights. 

I could dive into Google and find cases where it has already happened all day.  Now that states are able to ban abortions, what really makes you think that what has already happened when abortion was legal won't be common place now that states can ban it?   

[Missy]

When bad shit happens, you just have to deal with it.  And if a baby is involved, you don't get to play god and commit murder. 

Fair enough, we're all playing god to some ideology or another after all; some of us just bear the conceit to pretend we're not doing so in the first place.

That article goes mostly into the arrest of the man, but I was looking for a non political source.  The girl was 10 and had to cross state lines!  She was not only raped, but at an age where it was seriously dangerous for her to carry to term, and the state of Ohio said nope, you're passed 6 weeks.  No exception! 

Ohio is one of those females are livestock states. they passed a law recently saying any female athlete suspected of being trans has to submit to an inspection of her genitals inside and out to prove she's cisgender, you literally have to just throw an accusation at someone and if she happens to be a child or teenager then she gets the opportunity of a traumatizing inspection in her formative years - and honestly would an adult woman really be completely at ease with such inspections either?

I get what you're saying, Ohio Republicans are turning their state into a cesspool of bigotry and conceit.

[Laughing Hyena]

Yep I had to hear about this from my own mother. Apparently she got it in her head that third trimester abortions involve dismemberment of the baby still in the mothers body. Her tone  basically made it sound like a very frivolous act rather than a life or death situation for the child bearer if that is being considered

I know for certain that such a procedure described above is a load of propaganda BS, as I had seen this ad on YouTube from time to time. But I'd have better luck convincing a turtle to walk on two legs than convincing her otherwise. I'm not shy on gore or medical but I'm no doctor. So how inaccurate is this third trimester "procedure"?

[Oniya]

There's actually very little information out there on third trimester abortions specifically.  I was able to find plenty of information about D&C (usually first trimester) and D&E (usually second trimester).  In both cases, the procedure is described as removing uterine contents with suction and/or surgical instruments, with suction being the preferred method according to the World Health Organization.

'Labor induced miscarriage' (sometimes called 'intact dilation and extraction') was banned in the US back in 2003, and was appealed in 2004, but the ban was ultimately upheld by the SCOTUS decision on Gonzales v. Carhart in 2006 as 'not impos[ing] an undue burden on the due process right of women to obtain an abortion'

[Azy]

Yeah, I've been told all about some undercover video of Planned Parenthood.  Her niece told her it was so upsetting to see all those barrels behind the facility.  They opened one up and it was full of dead babies.  They only opened the one, but of course what was in one spoke for the contents of the rest.  I said to her, you do know those are staged to provoke an emotional response, right?  Even if the baby killing argument is true, they'd still have to follow laws on bio hazard waste, not dump them in barrels out back. 

It makes me so angry.  Our local PP is basically open one day a week now, and they can't even perform abortions there.  State and federal laws have certain standards which small local clinics don't meet.  But when I did not have insurance and had lady parts issues I went there because they charged on an income based sliding scale.  For a while the exam was even completely free compliments of the state if you let them to a full STI check on you. 

I went once for a pregnancy test.  They gave me a paper where I had to check a box telling them what I wanted to do if the test was positive.  One of the options was parenthood.  Adoption was also on there.  I was told if I wanted an abortion they'd have to refer me to a larger clinic in Pittsburgh.  If I wanted to go the adoption route, they'd hook me up with some kind of advocate to guide me through the process.  No one tried to talk me into an abortion.  No one tried to talk me into anything, it was whatever I wanted to do, and they had tons of information on all three options.