Coronavirus and Obesity

[Chantarelle]

That precedent was set a long time ago in 1905 because of smallpox. Vaccine mandates or requirements are a huge part in USA history in dealing with pandemics or plagues. There's no 'slippery slope' as you describe because it's been long understood and enshrined as constitutional that individual freedoms do not trump the right of the collective good in the case of a health crisis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts

We do not have the freedom to choose the way you think we do, and we have not for over one hundred years.

And society has been better for it, because less people died of completely avoidable illnesses.

“That precedent has been set a long time ago”, “And society has been better for it”.

Then there’s no problem here. Everyone move along?

Not sure that bird flies the way some would like.

Could we address my main point for the sake of conversation then, please? I’d like to know everyone’s opinion on alternatives to vaccines and the question of obesity and general health being a factor.

Those who can’t be vaccinated per doctor advice for example would benefit most from losing weight if they are overweight. Even those who have gotten vaccinated and who are still at risk for catching covid I’m sure would benefit from being of normal weight, no?

[Annaamarth]

On obesity and general health vs. the threat of COVID:

Obesity is a health concern, yes - but COVID may be worse.

Consider, from the US NCHS, Mortality in the United States, 2019, page 4.  The leading causes of death are, far and away, heart disease and cancer.  Deaths are provided in per-capita numbers, but the top ten causes of death are stated to be 73.4% of deaths, so we can convert to percentages.

Heart disease resulted in roughly 22.7% of deaths, cancer 20.5%.  Unintentional injuries sit at 3rd with 6.9%, chronic lower respiratory disease at 5.4%, and the numbers for strokes, Alzheimers, diabetes, kidney disease, influenza, pneumonia and suicide go down from there.

Many of these are affected by obesity, certainly, but obesity doesn't account for all those deaths - many of them just came by old age, mental health, drunk driving, assault, what-have-you.

2020 had an excess death rate - across all causes - of about 20%.  That's not just deaths by COVID, but all the secondary effects as well - surgeries put off by impacted medical systems resulting in deaths, increased rate of suicide, what-have-you, as our partially-vaccinated population allows the virus to bounce around and increasingly spread forcing a repeating series of shutdowns resulting in depression, lost health care, etc.

NCoV-19 has significant impact beyond COVID, with an apparent impact equal to all of cancer again.

From a ruthless, capitalist perspective - we had a functioning economy with rampant obesity.  COVID has been worse, and would have been worse if we hadn't taken lockdown measures.  It would have been better if we had taken lockdown measures sooner and longer, but ... what could have been.

From a practical perspective, the prophylactic measures for COVID - stay home when possible, wear a mask around others, don't hug, don't lick eyeballs, and keep sex inside your close polycule - are relatively simple restrictions compared to most other measures.

Alternatives to vaccination:

It's true, some people cannot safely be vaccinated - they are rare, but they exist.

However, the incident rate of allergic reactions, clotting and niche-events such as Guillain-Barré syndrome are significantly lower than the severe hospitalization rate for COVID - getting vaccinated is safer.
If your doctor cannot say for certain that you should not get vaccinated, then you should get vaccinated, specifically to protect the people who can not.  This is the purpose of herd immunity.

Regardless, whether discussing vaccinations or dieting, I recommend consulting your doctor.

On the duty to vaccinate:

Putting aside Jacobson v. Mass., You are from the USA - I suggest to you the following:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

I take special note of provide for the common defence.  Someone might read that and say, quite rightly, that herd immunity is the constitutional duty of the patriot.  Perhaps this is why, when George Washington mandated smallpox vaccination, the consensus was "Okay."  Perhaps this is why, during World War 2, when the country said "black out your homes, turn off the lights, drive slowly and save gas," the country, by and large, did.  The country pulled together in the face of a greater threat.

On the benefits of healthy living

Those who can’t be vaccinated per doctor advice for example would benefit most from losing weight if they are overweight. Even those who have gotten vaccinated and who are still at risk for catching covid I’m sure would benefit from being of normal weight, no?

Certainly, there is benefit from maintaining a healthy weight, exercising and proper diet.  These are not a substitute for vaccination and provide limited protection from disease - and anyone can get cancer.

tl;dr - Obesity and sedentarism (which is much less frequently mentioned but arguably worse) are not good.  Being in prime physical condition is not a substitute for vaccination and does not contribute to herd immunity in most cases.

Not a doctor or lawyer.  My background is technical, not medical or academic.  I am not an expert - I've done a certain amount of research, some of which is here, and engaged the conversation.

[Hades]

While obesity is a complication for many other sorts of diseases and complications, in the case of covid being fit is less of a protective measure than it would be against other diseases.   And the reason for that is because, this is an entirely new virus for which we have no natural immunity towards.  There may be some pre-existing mutations in individuals that make them more immune to the virus than the population at large but even if that is the case the rate of that mutation is too small to rely on when it comes to fostering herd immunity.  Vaccines still remain the best method to push the virus into dormancy for the immediate future and possibly eradication in the model of smallpox and polio within a generation or two.

[Chantarelle]

Since I wasn’t the one who actually started this thread (it was started for me for reasons I still do not quite understand but I will leave be), this is actually a continuation from a previous discussion in the “Coronavirus: Discussion and Information” and I’d like to include some previous information that I had originally brought up since I cannot edit a post that I did not myself create (or otherwise)...

I had begun the conversation this way…

“We’re treating the vaccine as a one size fits all and the only legit answer when we all know that vaccines will always be a trigger and non starter for many people who do not and will never trust big pharma or the government. There is no reason why we can’t tackle covid in more than one way, for example using prophylactics and/or just getting healthier in general. Obesity is a huge contributing factor to deaths (in general let alone covid). I’d like to know why their is no government outreach or campaign urging people to lose weight and the lack of such an easy outreach program probably also contributes to the mistrust in all honestly.”

That was my original thought and in addition I mentioned that I would like to see some sort of government initiative (local government and federal) promoting health. One “that’s as in your face mainstream and culturally talked about and lauded as the body positivity movement. I want to turn on the news and see Fauci talking about obesity and health and it’s risks concerning covid just as much as I see him talking about vaccines.”

Additionally, I opined that “I think that we need to employ every option, alternative and tactic.” That, “I think that being told realistically that we live in an era of viral pandemics and so in order to combat that reality as a human being that we will need to be less fat and healthier in general would yes, be a smaller pill to swallow than telling a population skeptical of government (and with good reason) that they will have to inject a substance (made up of ingredients that the average person will not look into) created by big pharma. Yes, I think (in my opinion) it is beyond a necessary and moral thing to do.”

An interesting study pertaining to health/obesity/exercise and Covid/our current pandemic…

This is a study that found that exercise is protective for SARS coV-2. It involves 100,000 subjects that had been tracked for the last 5 years from February of 2015 to July of 2020. Researchers in South Korea found that exercise was linked with a reduced likelihood of being infected with SARS coV-2. This is published in the BMJ (British Medical Journal). It found that a minimum of 150 minutes of moderate to heavy physical activity (muscle strengthening and aerobics) a week offered the best benefits. This is the first time that exercise has been associated with a reduced likelihood of contracting the virus.

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/07/21/bjsports-2021-104203

In part, the introduction states as follows…

“It is well established that regular and sustained participation in physical activity is beneficial for almost every facet of health, and the supporting evidence continues to grow. Moreover, previous studies have suggested that physical activity has a protective effect against infectivity and severity of respiratory infection due to its immunological benefits….

During the ongoing pandemic, measures taken by governments globally to control the transmission of COVID-19 include ‘lock downs’ and social distancing. This has substantially decreased people’s daily behaviours, routine and population levels of physical activity, which may lead to an unhealthy lifestyle. Previous studies had investigated the potential association between physical activity and COVID-19 with inconsistent results; no association with SARS-CoV-2 infectivity and COVID-19 severity, and beneficial association with COVID-19 severity have been found by various studies. Thus, the impact of physical activity on COVID-19 infectivity and clinical outcomes remains unclear.
Previous studies had described the health benefits of physical activity including those on the immune system. We established the hypothesis that this association will also apply to COVID-19, an infectious respiratory disease. Therefore, the aim of this study was to investigate the hypothesis that sufficient physical activity may reduce the risk of COVID-19 infectivity, severity and its related mortality among patients who underwent SARS-CoV-2 testing or decrease the length of hospital stay among patients confirmed with COVID-19. We used a large-scale, population-based, nationwide claim-based cohort data that included all patients who underwent laboratory testing for SARS-CoV-2 in South Korea.”

Key messages (from the linked study)…

What are the findings?

* Our results indicated that those who engaged in both aerobic and muscle strengthening activity according to 2018 exercise guidelines had a lower risk of SARS-CoV-2 infection (adjusted relative risk (aRR), 0.85; 95% CI 0.72 to 0.96), severe COVID-19 illness (aRR 0.42; 95% CI 0.19 to 0.91) and COVID-19 related death (aRR, 0.24; 95% CI 0.05 to 0.99) than those who did not.

* Our findings reported that the recommended key target range of metabolic equivalent task (MET; 500-1000 MET min/week) was associated with the maximum beneficial effect size for reduced the risk of SARS-CoV-2 infection (aRR 0.78; 95% CI 0.66 to 0.92), severe COVID-19 illness (aRR 0.62; 95% CI 0.43 to 0.90) and COVID-19 related death (aRR 0.17; 95% CI 0.07 to 0.98). The length of stay in hospital was shortened about approximately 2 days in patients with both aerobic and muscle strengthening or with 500-1000 MET min/week.

How might it impact on clinical practice in the future?

* The findings of the study suggest that public health policies and strategies to increase physical activity at the population level may reduce the risk of SARS-CoV-2 infection and minimise adverse consequences in patients with COVID-19.

* Encouraging individuals to have active level of physical activity during the COVID-19 pandemic should be promptly and actively considered at the public health level.

Other studies I will include here…

Physical Inactivity is associated with a higher risk for severe COVID 19 outcomes:
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/04/07/bjsports-2021-104080

Underlying Medical Conditions and Severe Illness Among 540,667 Adults Hospitalized with Covid-19, March 2020-March 2021
https://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2021/21_0123.htm

Elite Athletes with COVID-19 - Predictors of the Course of Disease
https://www.jsams.org/article/S1440-2440(21)00179-1/fulltext

My question is and will continue to be why aren’t we talking about this, why isn’t the MSM discussing or reporting on this, why isn’t Fauci and the CDC screaming this information from their pulpits? Why are we closing gyms? Why aren’t we incentivizing exercise? If we are serious about saving lives this should be front page news and on the lips of every politician and public health official in the same breath they use to talk about vaccines.

[Iniquitous]

My question is and will continue to be why aren’t we talking about this, why isn’t the MSM discussing or reporting on this, why isn’t Fauci and the CDC screaming this information from their pulpits? Why are we closing gyms? Why aren’t we incentivizing exercise? If we are serious about saving lives this should be front page news and on the lips of every politician and public health official in the same breath they use to talk about vaccines.

You do know this is a respiratory disease right? Putting people in close proximity of each other all breathing hard from exercise is going to infect everyone in the gym. Doing exercise is not enough to stop the spread no matter what you think. And the idea of making them all wear masks while working out? Please. We can't get people to wear masks while shopping.

My point is simple. Yes, healthy living is the best way to fight off illnesses but it is not going to stop a global pandemic when more than half the population of a country is overweight and living on processed foods. A sudden switch to clean eating and exercise mid pandemic is NOT going to reverse this course.  It takes time to lose weight and to become 'healthy'.  And that is assuming you can convince the population that exercising and dropping the junk from their diet is going to save them.  Not to mention the actual cost of buying healthy foods.  When it costs more to buy a salad than it does a box of cheap frozen pizzas, you are going to continue seeing people buy the frozen pizzas.

Now on to my next point.

We never reached herd immunity on smallpox. Or polio. Why?  Because we created a vaccine that eradicated them. Vaccines are not bad. They arent the devil and they are quite beneficial to keeping people from suffering horribly and dying.  Eating healthy and exercising was not going to stop smallpox or polio ( we as Americans were far more healthy in those times ) and it is not going to stop Covid-19,

Take the damn vaccine.  You can still advocate healthy living but don't dare spread misinformation that just eating healthy and exercising will keep you from getting Covid. That is some Majorie Taylor Greene bullshit.

[Hawkwood]

Take the damn vaccine.  You can still advocate healthy living but don't dare spread misinformation that just eating healthy and exercising will keep you from getting Covid. That is some Majorie Taylor Greene bullshit.

The only slight nuance I'd add to this is "if you are able". There are some legitimate reasons not to take one of the vaccines, namely:
1) I'm not to what extent the vaccines have been tested in pregnant mothers. UK sources advise against pregnant women getting vaccinated, but out of caution rather than out of any actual risk signal.
2) If you're allergic to any of the ingredients.
3) You have another indication.

But the whole idea of healthy diet and activity will safeguard you from COVID is utter garbage. I refer you to COVID cases amongst Olympic athletes. Now, if good diet and healthy living were going to safe ANYONE, it'd be Olympians.

[Chantarelle]

You do know this is a respiratory disease right? Putting people in close proximity of each other all breathing hard from exercise is going to infect everyone in the gym. Doing exercise is not enough to stop the spread no matter what you think. And the idea of making them all wear masks while working out? Please. We can't get people to wear masks while shopping.

My point is simple. Yes, healthy living is the best way to fight off illnesses but it is not going to stop a global pandemic when more than half the population of a country is overweight and living on processed foods. A sudden switch to clean eating and exercise mid pandemic is NOT going to reverse this course.  It takes time to lose weight and to become 'healthy'.  And that is assuming you can convince the population that exercising and dropping the junk from their diet is going to save them.  Not to mention the actual cost of buying healthy foods.  When it costs more to buy a salad than it does a box of cheap frozen pizzas, you are going to continue seeing people buy the frozen pizzas.

Now on to my next point.

We never reached herd immunity on smallpox. Or polio. Why?  Because we created a vaccine that eradicated them. Vaccines are not bad. They arent the devil and they are quite beneficial to keeping people from suffering horribly and dying.  Eating healthy and exercising was not going to stop smallpox or polio ( we as Americans were far more healthy in those times ) and it is not going to stop Covid-19,

Take the damn vaccine.  You can still advocate healthy living but don't dare spread misinformation that just eating healthy and exercising will keep you from getting Covid. That is some Majorie Taylor Greene bullshit.

Iniquitous, pertaining to gyms specifically, we can limit gyms indoor intake if we’d like and perhaps even inspire the necessary concept of “outdoor gyms” since being outdoors is a lot healthier than being indoors as you’ve mentioned which is one reason lockdowns can cause (other) problems. Our society leans far too heavily on quick fixes which I’m not saying you should not freely take advantage of, I’m just saying that we need more than one tool and a naturally healthier population in general is a good thing. No, change won’t happen over night but it also won’t happen at all ever if we don’t start now. It starts with schools, it starts with employers, it starts with doctors, influencers, local government officials. It starts somewhere. And what’s different today that even 2 years ago? The pandemic and threats of future pandemics I believe is a good motivator in fostering change that before was slow-moving. One of my big points that I stated was that trying to sell people on health and weight loss with incentives and knew insights is a much easier pill to swallow than convincing them to inject what many see as an untrustworthy “big pharma solution” into their bodies. I think that you can scream “just take the damn vaccine” until you are blue in the face but the results of that would not be as significant as many would like, it would more than likely and has had the opposite effect.

Also, studies published in reputable medical journals aren’t misinformation, they are important bits of pertinent information that people need to be discussing and building on.

The only slight nuance I'd add to this is "if you are able". There are some legitimate reasons not to take one of the vaccines, namely:
1) I'm not to what extent the vaccines have been tested in pregnant mothers. UK sources advise against pregnant women getting vaccinated, but out of caution rather than out of any actual risk signal.
2) If you're allergic to any of the ingredients.
3) You have another indication.

But the whole idea of healthy diet and activity will safeguard you from COVID is utter garbage. I refer you to COVID cases amongst Olympic athletes. Now, if good diet and healthy living were going to safe ANYONE, it'd be Olympians.

Hawkwood, no ones saying that healthy people (Olympians included) can’t get Covid, of course they can as even already moderately healthy and vaccinated people get covid but how many are hospitalized and how many die? I’m not saying don’t get vaccinated, do what you want as from what I’m seeing the vaccine has done what it has set out to do (placing side effects aside for sake of my point) it’s reduced death, I’m simply saying that we need to tackle this problem on multiple fronts because like it or not not everyone will willingly get these vaccines and if physical exercise and a healthy weight can reduce hospitalizations and death and as the BMJ study suggests, protects from getting infected in the first place, wonderful, let’s go towards that as well. Love it.

[Hawkwood]

I think that this is ultimately a question of relative gains v risk v cost. Basically:

"Infection v Individual Harm v Economic Loss"

First of all, what's the unit of harm-reduction from COVID symptoms? Probably excess deaths. Maybe days lost due to sickness. That's not clear to me.

Secondly, what's the relative "risk of covid being less harmful" compared to "risk of contracting covid"? Again, to make a proper analysis we need to understand both measures.

Thirdly, we have yet another consideration - impact on the economy.

Without being able to quantify ANY of these impact, my suspicions about various interventions are as follows:

Vaccines:
Dramatic reduction in risk
Very low side-effect chance
Economically neutral

Masks:
Large reduction in risk
Zero side effect chance
Economically neutral

Social distancing:
Large reduction in risk
Zero side effect chance
Makes shopping and cinemas and restaurants harder to turn a profit

Hand-washing
Large reduction in risk
Zero side effect chance
No impact

Increase in cardio-vascular activity / weight-loss
Small reduction in risk
Non-zero risk of contagion
economic impact

Lockdown / Isolation
Reduction in risk
Increase in mental health issues
Damage to economy

I think that we could all stand to eat better and live better. But the reason is because we're just healthier when we're... er... healthier. So in the grand scheme of things:

1) Get a vaccination
2) Wear a mask
3) Keep a safe distance
4) Wash hands

To my mind at least, exercise isn't an effective substitute for any of the above; it doesn't change infection rates (merely severity of infection), doesn't do it significantly more than any of the other measures, and also has a much higher risk of contagion.

[Tolvo]

Chantarelle could you post the sources you've been reading about these doctors you mention or your statements on vaccines? What are these studies you mention can we see them too?

[Chantarelle]

Vaccines:
Dramatic reduction in risk
Very low side-effect chance
Economically neutral

Masks:
Large reduction in risk
Zero side effect chance
Economically neutral

Social distancing:
Large reduction in risk
Zero side effect chance
Makes shopping and cinemas and restaurants harder to turn a profit

Hand-washing
Large reduction in risk
Zero side effect chance
No impact

Increase in cardio-vascular activity / weight-loss
Small reduction in risk
Non-zero risk of contagion
economic impact

Lockdown / Isolation
Reduction in risk
Increase in mental health issues
Damage to economy

I think that we could all stand to eat better and live better. But the reason is because we're just healthier when we're... er... healthier. So in the grand scheme of things:

1) Get a vaccination
2) Wear a mask
3) Keep a safe distance
4) Wash hands

To my mind at least, exercise isn't an effective substitute for any of the above; it doesn't change infection rates (merely severity of infection), doesn't do it significantly more than any of the other measures, and also has a much higher risk of contagion.

That’s how you would assess the risks. That is fine. Other people’s assessments do vary.

Chantarelle could you post the sources you've been reading about these doctors you mention or your statements on vaccines? What are these studies you mention can we see them too?

Sorry, I’m not sure what you are talking about. I posted links to four studies, the rest of my opinion was based on the gathering of information I’ve absorbed up til now.

[Fox Lokison]

My point is simple. Yes, healthy living is the best way to fight off illnesses but it is not going to stop a global pandemic when more than half the population of a country is overweight and living on processed foods. A sudden switch to clean eating and exercise mid pandemic is NOT going to reverse this course.  It takes time to lose weight and to become 'healthy'.  And that is assuming you can convince the population that exercising and dropping the junk from their diet is going to save them.  Not to mention the actual cost of buying healthy foods.  When it costs more to buy a salad than it does a box of cheap frozen pizzas, you are going to continue seeing people buy the frozen pizzas.

I apologize for any and all weird wording, I am using voice to text at the moment. I do not always pick up the errors it makes

If I may tack onto this as well, fixing the health of a population in a country where Healthcare is prohibitively expensive is a much bigger ask than taking a vaccine. And as a disabled person, I would really like to point out that the logic that's being pushed about making a healthier population is not accessible to people like me. No matter how well I eat or how much I exercise, I will never be healthy. This will always impact my ability to fight off a virus. I have had covid at least once, possibly twice. I can tell you right now, even having gotten the more mild version, that someone not much more ill than me would not be okay. There was no magic bullet that would make them more able to fight off a virus. The only thing that would help them is a vaccine.

What strikes me as somewhat ridiculous about this conversation is this idea that General Wellness has not been tried. And I find it even more ridiculous that this is a conversation we are having about a country that can't even get itself together enough to provide basic Universal Health Care. It cost a ridiculous amount of money to go see a doctor, to get healthy food, to access medical care that is necessary. That's not to say that we should not combat obesity, and that's not to say that we should not strive to improve General Health and Healthcare. But to put those things in front of a vaccine strikes me as one of the more foolish arguments to make.

This country is not equipped to do what is being suggested. Point Blank. The thing it is equipped to do, is to continue with social distancing, masking, and vaccinations. We do not have an ideal situation and we can not strive for idealistic goals. This is a pandemic. I personally do not feel like putting other people's lives on the line just to pursue a long-term project that may not even be possible, when the issue is right here, right now, and getting worse. These are all absolutely great long-term goals to strive for, and in fact have been worked on for a very long time. But unless we can fix the capitalist system that affects our food distribution, accessibility to healthy food, prices of it, access to healthcare, ability to even get exercise safely, and a myriad of other things, I don't see why that's a solution for a crisis.

There's no guarantee that a fitter and healthier Society is going to fight off a virus more effectively than a vaccinated population. Because a virus does not care about how fit you are. It does not care how well you eat. Those things may reduce your risk for other issues, but I'm sorry, whether you're healthy or not, something like covid can still happen to you. Vaccines work. Vaccines save populations and save lives.

[Tolvo]

I asked because none of what you linked mentioned that vaccines are not useful, one mentions them offhand at the very start but that's about it. One which uses only examples from living candidates with two sample sizes around 900 and 1200 in size in South Korea following their health guidelines as a base line focusing almost purely on data analysis which does fit as most of the names on the study are data analysts with 2 being Epidemiologists(Which is the really relevant field here) and for some reason a decent portion being pediatricians which is a bit odd for a study focusing on people age 20 and up. Each source linked discusses how being overweight can increase complications relating to Covid(Duh) with one claiming that being overweight actually influences how likely one is to transmit or catch Covid(Which is a bizarre claim but seems to be them just looking at numbers without analyzing why that could be as they don't say how this could be just claim it). None of these really seem to account for what level of healthcare each individual received, especially in the case of the athletes focused one(No shit people with a lot of money and fame with amazing healthcare fare better than people who at the time couldn't even afford to be tested or get treatment). One claims among hypertension, obesity, heart disease, and diabetes, that anxiety disorders were another common factor among those who died. As one of the leading comorbidities above diabetes. When reading these they say nothing about vaccines being ineffective and do not claim that, only claiming that weight and physical activity have an impact though often they mention the impact being worth less than 1% of their risk factor analysis.

[Hawkwood]

What this discussions needs more of is data!

Play around with this risk estimator or the Oxford University qCOVID tool, or the one from JHU.

These will give you a much clearer picture of the sort of risks you're talking about. Remember that obesity is not the opposite of exercise. It is entirely possible to be non-obese and do no exercise. When reading comorbidities, obese merely means obese rather than obese-and-not-exercising.

The first thing to point out is the type of study the Korean paper involves; it is a non-interventional cohort study. Not terrible, not great. As the paper notes:

Few studies on physical activity and risk of respiratory infectious diseases have shown inconsistent results: beneficial association in USA (n=78 062)11 and Poland (n=1028)13 and no association in Denmark (n=5368),30 Sweden (n=2038)31 and USA (n=83 165).32 Furthermore, several intervention trials conducted in the USA, Brazil, Canada, Portugal, Spain and Turkey have produced non-conclusive and inconsistent results

Now, the big daddy of medical research is the Cochran review meta-analysis:
Vitamin D supplementation for COVID.
Quarantine
Blocking international travel


Firstly, here's the UK regulator "yellow card" reporting system. It'll tell you the number, type, and severity of each vaccine. In the UK as of May 2021:

35 million people vaccinated
51 died directly from blood clots, which were observed in 262. Which is 10.9 per million
129,618 people have died in the UK within 28 days of receiving a vaccine. This will include people who were hit by a bus.

Now, looking at their efficacy is a bit more complicated. Here's a good summary. These are generally expressed as Relative Risk Reductions, meaning 1 - RR of a given intervention. A 95% reduction in the risk of getting covid is HUGE.

Wearing a mask reduces your risk by 60-100%:
Source 1
Source 2

Other sanitary measures are also relevant, but their effect varies.
Source 1


Now, turning to exercise. It's not new to science that exercise reduces risk of infection (good summary), but the evidence base is currently not great.

CDC recommends "150 minutes of moderate-intensity aerobic activity, 75 minutes of vigorous-intensity aerobic activity, or an equivalent mix of the two each week".

[Chantarelle]

I’m thinking I need to clarify the point I was trying to make with my ORIGINAL original post while making note beforehand that no measure is going to be 100% effective.

The problem I was trying to combat is that it is simply a reality that not everyone will be on board with a vaccine for so many reasons it would just get messy and argumentative to even mention and so I’m just stating that fact and letting it be. That said and the point that was made by me was that we need more than one solution (again, knowing that no one solution will be 100% effective for everyone). General Wellness has been tried… has it been tried lately, backed up by the new incentive of you could increase your risk of death if you catch covid? People can lose weight if they are motivated and driven to but has the allure of the body positivity and fat acceptance movement made that message of a healthy weight, of diet and exercise, harder to get across to a younger generation? I dunno, it’s a question. I have a feeling it hasn’t helped.

I’m glad your not saying that we shouldn’t try combating obesity and striving to improve health in general, Fox. Most people don’t need universal healthcare to do that. They do that everyday, they find the motivation and inspiration to lose weight and get healthier every day without going broke buying diet food or needing their hand held by a doctor (not directing that at you at all). No one has to put health in front of the vaccine if they think that’s foolish but again, my point was made about those who dont want and will never be convinced to get the vaccine and additionally, for those who are vaccinated (who are still getting sick) I can only see good coming from using multiple tools to reduce the severity of the illness.

I might say that for ppl to expect everyone to get vaccinated is in itself striving for an ideal situation and idealistic goals, I think expecting everyone to get vaccinated by the methods being suggested by the MSM and public health/government officials is a battle that will lead to nothing good and continually falling back on the “them against us” mentality is leading to a bleak future and we are lodging the figurative stick into our own bicycle wheels by doing so. I haven’t said no one should push the vaccine but at the same time we need more talk about other methods of preventative care. We need to not poo-poo away these studies and what they are showing us unless we really do want unrest and more harm to society because the hostility and the resentment I’ve seen happening not only on these E forums but in society in general is a recipe for again, nothing good. So, people can call me an anti-vaxxer (not directed at you) all they want (because I know it’s not true) and you can call my opinion and the conversations I’d like to engage in ridiculous or stupid but it does nothing but hurt our community’s/society’s discourse and make people who actually think the way I do and wonder the same things that I do just go quiet but it does not make them quit thinking or wondering these things.

As for your last paragraph, Fox, there is no guarantee in anything we do. We are talking about weighing risks and considering thoughtfully new research that shows the opposite of what you express. 

Tolvo, I never made the argument that vaccines weren’t useful. Also, you say “duh” like everyone knows that obesity increases complications due to covid but are you entirely sure on that because I have spoken to many people, friends and neighbors and it’s shocking how many people do not know this because their news and authority figures are not telling them this, especially the vaccinated ones I talk to because they felt as if they were good to go now that they’d gotten the vaccine.

[Fox Lokison]

I'm sorry. Chanterelle, but the risk of death and massive spread without a vaccine is enormously higher than with. If you want to weight risks, here's the risks. We do not do our due diligence by using a tested and true method that has stopped pandemics that started in Ancient Greece, and this pandemic grows significantly worse, with higher death tolls than we've seen already. You talk about weighing risk as if nobody has ever considered whether or not eating good food and being fit could be a solution. We have a tool at our disposal that has saved humanity many times over.

Your own studies do not back up the points you are making - Tolvo noted just about everything I've concluded after reading them as well, so I have nothing else to add there.

I don't particularly care that not everyone will get on board with a vaccine - because it doesn't matter. Public health campaigns have been pushed by multiple parties and groups with extensive funding, for as long as we've been a country. Yet none of them dented a plague or pandemic. People can argue and complain about vaccines all they want, but I will not entertain a group of people whose beliefs put the larger society at risk. "We need more than one solution" simply doesn't matter. We do not have more than one solution. Unless you have a way to squash COVID in your back pocket, vaccines are the only thing we've got.

"Has general wellness been tried in this context" is a pointless question as well. You're arguing that people, who when told they could die from COVID without a vaccine, won't take it. You think telling them to overhaul their life will? Why? What is your reasoning behind that?

Onto not needing universal healthcare to lose weight. Allow me to break it down. If you are financing health insurance, you are paying a large amount of money that could be going elsewhere, for a service that barely helps you. In addition, what we know as "traditional weight loss" options are rarely ever one size fits all. Most people gain the weight back, or simply cannot maintain the lifestyle that allows them to lose weight. They have to work. They don't have time to cook. The perishables they'd eat expire too fast. Exercise is a chunk of their time they cannot spare. And these are all IF you are a person who can lose weight simply through a change of diet and exercise. Universal healthcare does not just let you see a doctor. It's a weight off your wallet, and it allows access to dietitians and other specialists that can help you on that journey.

Moving on. Again, the issue is not that you are suggesting general wellness. The issue is, you're suggesting it as an alternative to a vaccine. Kinda like saying "well I can fight off this bear with a rocket launcher or a slingshot, but some folks dont like rocket launchers, so..." One tool is wildly more effective than the other. One tool has a much higher success rate. It's irresponsible at best to suggest an alternative to vaccination as if it could be comparable. Exercise all you want. Lose weight all you want. Be in peak health. But there's a reason smallpox took out thousands of soldiers first in ancient Greece, and theres a reason Covid attacks the strong and healthy today.

Pandemics don't care. They're not a cold or bug. They will eat you alive, and they don't care if you've been eating kale or hamburgers. While your symptoms may change depending on weight and health, as well as your long term effects, what you're missing is that those are for SURVIVORS.

Vaccines are so people do survive in the first place. Being healthy might help you live a better life after Covid, if you catch it. It won't stop you from getting it.

I have no problem hurting the discourse if the discourse is around people who refuse to take a vaccine and slow or even stop a pandemic's spread. We have a civic responsibility to one another. Those who shirk that responsibility and endanger those around them do not deserve to have their hands held. We live in an era of information, where learning about what happens when we don't take pandemics seriously is easy to do. I have no empathy towards a stance of ignorance with that in mind. Their choice not to get a vaccine is an uneducated, ill-informed, and dangerous one for everyone around them. Vaccines only work well if the majority of the society gets them. These people are not gambling with their own lives, but everyone's.

You do not combat the issue of a hole in the hull of your ship by suggesting that the sailors simply move their bunks to a higher deck. You patch the hole and stop the ship from sinking. Temporary measures to slightly improve an individual's situation do not stop the ship from sinking.

Those who are wiser than all of us weighed the risks. They come from a long profession of weighing the risks. Here's the answer. Get a vaccine. Because anything else is simply insufficient for both the individual and the collective.

[Tolvo]

You spoke about how in your view fighting obesity should get just as much attention as vaccination, as well as the body positivity movement(Which is confusing as that is nothing relating to the government or healthcare and is a political movement) and equated exercise and diet with the effectiveness of vaccines and as an alternative to them which is not backed up by any data I've seen. I am also a little confused how you are encountering so many people who view weight and/or exercise as not having an impact on health when that is brow beat into American media constantly and we often see for many unrelated medical conditions doctors require weight loss. Hell I'm trans and overweight meaning doctors are less likely to allow me to transition unless I lose weight. Despite it not being related. Hatred of fat people is rampant in the USA and fat people are treated rather poorly in the medical field with many issues being dismissed and often overlooked(Especially in women, BIPOC, and trans people) and instead get it blamed on weight by their healthcare provider.

[Iniquitous]

I am gonna tackle a thing or two while cooking dinner so this may be a convoluted mess.

One. Body Positivity.  I am sick to death of hearing people disregard/dismiss or otherwise bash body positivity.  Yeah, being fat is unhealthy but being able to love yourself even if you are overweight and accept your body as it is is a damn good thing.  It is a necessary thing.  And it is not just about those that are overweight.  It is for everyone.  I have had to learn to accept that I have a flat ass. It's genetic. My mom has a flat ass, my grandmother had a flat ass. Sure, I could get butt implants but I'd really rather not. And no amount of squats is gonna give me a Kardashian ass. Not in my genetic wheelhouse.  My cousin is bone thin.  As in looks almost anorexic thin. Can't gain weight for the life of her and has to exercise because of high cholesterol.  She has had to accept and learn to love her body despite the fact she has no curves and no breasts.  THAT is body positivity.

Fat acceptance. You know what?  Stop shaming people for being overweight.  There are millions of things worse than being fat.  You don't know why someone is overweight and it is not always a case of fat = lazy or fat = junk food eater. Just... stop.  Concern yourself with... yourself.  Nothing wrong with being gung-ho about a healthy lifestyle but don't shove it down people's throats.

Live and let live.

[Chantarelle]

I linked studies, everything else was opinion but I guess the problem is I don’t want to argue, I want to find common ground and I thought speaking on a topic like health was a safe place to start doing that. This world needs to be able to find common ground or else things are going to get scarier and scarier.

Again, I have not once said don’t get the vaccine. Hell, I’ll do one better: Go! Get the vaccine everyone! For the love of all that is holy get the vaccine! Better? *shrugs*

I was merely looking at things realistically when I say there will be people who will never get the vaccine and we’re going to just have to deal with that and do as much as we can given the reality of that fact but…anyways, these forums for me are not productive and it’s my bad for trying to participate in them. So, I’ll do everyone a solid, including myself and stick to storytelling.

Also, for the record, I lost 100 lbs this last year. It’s the second time I’ve done it and I’m allowed to have whatever opinion I’d like on the fat acceptance movement and my opinion is that I don’t like it, I think being morbidly obese (unhealthy) when (and if) you can help it is not beautiful (no matter what Lizzo and Tess Holliday say). If you’re an advocate then you’re an advocate. I am not.

Good night and I truly do wish you all healthy, peaceful lives.

[CopperLily]

It is entirely possible to be non-obese and do no exercise. When reading comorbidities, obese merely means obese rather than obese-and-not-exercising.

Saying this for the folks in the back. They are *weak* correlates at best.