Impeachment, Take Two (and Other Trump News)

[TheVillain]

They may have left their guns in their cars because they figured it would look really bad to get anywhere near a Secret Service detail while carrying a platoon's-worth of rifles and ammo.  At least the one protecting the guy they liked.

I know this is a joke, but there are several recorded cases that this actually happening. Some of the rioters apparently really did think they could just load their cars full of guns, park somewhere past the security perimeter checkpoints beforehand, and they'd have an oppurtunity to go get the guns when shit started going down.

[Oniya]

I actually wasn't attempting to joke.  I was trying to come up with a plausible reason why they would have apparently 'forgotten' their guns.  The article I linked in my previous post mentions that

Trump knew people who showed up at his speech on Jan. 6 had weapons and was furious the [sic] many were being stopped by magnetometers

.

One of the gun charges mentioned in the other article, one Lonnie Leroy Coffman, involved what a federal judge described as 'a small armory' in his truck.

[gaggedLouise]

So... what do you think of yesterday's hearings? Specifically, the bit about Trump attacking his driver? Does this sound credible to you or not?

Oh, the incident with the presidential limo has enormous cinematic power,  and I'm sure it will go down in history. The Secret Service guy involved has contested that it happened like that, but he could be just another guy getting paid to protect Trump. Neither he nor Ms Hutchinson could ever be convicted of perjury (she didn't actually claim to have witnessed it first hand) so we may never know for sure, but I personally think it's quite credible. It's Trump seeing himself as the John Wayne cowboy mounting his horse and charging off to save the battle. :)

And from the other side, our side, of course, it's amazing and hilarious because he's acting like: "Get off me, punk - I'm gonna drive  this car, drive myself to my coup d'état!"

[Beorning]

But is it all true? Is this Hutchinson woman credible? Agh! Whom to believe, whom to believe... *brain fizzles*

[gaggedLouise]

But is it all true? Is this Hutchinson woman credible? Agh! Whom to believe, whom to believe... *brain fizzles*

I saw much of the testimony and I think she's very credible. She was careful about what she was saying, careful about getting ir tight, about details, and not bravado at all: she struck me as truthful. And as a key aide to Mark Meadows she had a good vantage point to see and hear whatr was happening, it was also part of her job to keep track of peopel and  act as a gatekeeper and collations girl to Meadows, Trump's right-hand man at the time.

[GloomCookie]

Oh, the incident with the presidential limo has enormous cinematic power,  and I'm sure it will go down in history. The Secret Service guy involved has contested that it happened like that, but he could be just another guy getting paid to protect Trump. Neither he nor Ms Hutchinson could ever be convicted of perjury (she didn't actually claim to have witnessed it first hand) so we may never know for sure, but I personally think it's quite credible. It's Trump seeing himself as the John Wayne cowboy mounting his horse and charging off to save the battle. :)

And from the other side, our side, of course, it's amazing and hilarious because he's acting like: "Get off me, punk - I'm gonna drive  this car, drive myself to my coup d'état!"

I'm torn because here's the thing. Secret Service knows things. Remember, they watch the President 24/7 the entire time he's in office and beyond. Every time he's in the bathroom, every time he's having intimate relations with his wife in and out of the bedroom. They know. They are also explicitly told to shut the hell up because while it's not said directly, their job is to protect the president and that includes the larger office of the presidency from being caught up in scandal, so they will never, ever tell.

That said, part of the reason I'm unsure is because why has it taken almost 1.5 years to come forward? Why now? What has changed? Was it that the Jan 6 committee only just now got to her and asked her questions? I dunno, I'm skeptical when something like this comes out because it's real easy to turn this into manipulation by one side or the other. Media bias is a thing, and while I'm not crazy enough to outright declare MSM to automatically be a left-leaning cover up for Democrats (trust me I'm crazy but not to that extent), I still question it.

[Oniya]

I'm torn because here's the thing. Secret Service knows things. Remember, they watch the President 24/7 the entire time he's in office and beyond. Every time he's in the bathroom, every time he's having intimate relations with his wife in and out of the bedroom. They know. They are also explicitly told to shut the hell up because while it's not said directly, their job is to protect the president and that includes the larger office of the presidency from being caught up in scandal, so they will never, ever tell.

Well, back in 1998, a federal judge had quite a different take.  Then, the Supreme Court backed that up.

[greenknight]

Ms. Hutchinson related a lot of explicitly second-hand information while clearly naming the source of her information. It will be fairly easy to check her receipts and anyone objecting to her accounts of their statements will likely come forward.

And her account also said Trump was in the backseat directly communicating with the driver. "The president reached up towards the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel." Colbert joked about this with AOC last night, claiming that it had been so long since he drove himself that he forgot he couldn't drive from the backseat. Politico reports that in closed door testimony, Engel is said to have told the committee that he and Trump spoke about the former president's desire to go to the Capitol on January 6 but "took different views on the topic" and went back to the White House instead. Exactly what happened in the limousine will likely have to go through decalssification before it can be publicly disclosed by witnesses.

[gaggedLouise]

Remember ASAP Rocky, the US rapper who was arrested and put on trial in Stockholm three years ago over a street brawl involving him, his roadies and some local guys (some of them semi-criminals)?

Now it turns out, according to Morgan Johansson, Swedish Secretary of Justice, and other SW-DOJ sources close to him, that Trump threatened punitive trade sanctions against Sweden if the court did not drop the charges against the guy. This intervention happened during a "surreal" video conference across the Atlantic, with Trump in the White House. Trump also offered, at an earlier point, to pay the bail himself to get the man back to the US (obviously he wanted to be able to cast himself as the President saving Americans from un-American bad cops...).

ASAP Rocky was ultimately found guilty of aggravated assault and sentenced to the exact same number of days he had spent in custody before the trial, in a move designed to discourage appeals - so he was released immediately after the sentencing.

He is currently on schedule for a new trial  in LA over a shooting incident in Hollywood last fall.

Source: https://www.dn.se/sverige/trumps-okanda-hot-ville-tvinga-sverige-att-slappa-asap-rocky/ (in Swedish, one of the leading Stockholm daily papers. Paywall, but I've read the article by subscription and it seems perfectly solid). We know from before that Trump was concerned with bringing ASAP out of jail.

[gaggedLouise]

Correction to the earlier post: ASAP was found guilty of normal-degree assault, not aggravated. A broken glass bottle had been used by someone on his side of the brawl to subdue one of the local guys, but it wasn't possible to detemine who had used it, so it was not counted in.

[Oniya]

My biggest problem with it is that it assumes Trump would be riding shotgun. He was still acting president at the time and under Secret Service protection, meaning they would have him riding around in The Beast in the back, with glass between him and the driver. I'm not saying it's impossible, but there's a lot of other statements that don't add up for me.

So, I've been keeping half an eye on this aspect, looking for someone to comment on a physical barrier, or the 'shotgun' scenario.  After following up one headline saying that Trump's 'girth' would have prevented the action, it turns out that there is not a full panel between the front and rear compartments.  In fact, the article mentions that

Agents are trained to move from the front into the back seats quickly in the event of a medical situation.

- but that you need to be a bit of a contortionist to do it.

I'm not seeing a possibility of being able to take control of the car, but lashing out at the driver and possibly interfering with the motion of the vehicle by grabbing at controls or body parts is fairly doable.

[gaggedLouise]

John Bolton has a funny argument about how to view Trump's goals: for it to count as an attempted coup d'état, there has to have been careful planning. Trump's plans were just too sloppy and improvised to count as a real coup attempt, "and I've helped planning coups d'état myself, so I know what I'm talking about here". No, not in the USA, he quickly adds - it's about coups abroad, you know... 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jul/13/john-bolton-planned-coups-donald-trump-january-6

[TheVillain]

They say every time John Bolton commits a War Crime, his mustache gets a little bushier. So he would know.

Also, lol at his attempt at arguing that it doesn't count as a coup because it was of such poor quality that it shouldn't count.

[Oniya]

Just to take it down a notch:  If I were to spike someone's Jell-O with antifreeze, but I was also too dumb to realize that antifreeze has a supremely bitter additive, it would still count as attempted murder.

[Azy]

Hell, if I just one day lose my temper and stab someone with a pair of scissors, that's zero pre planning, and yet would either be assault and battery or Murder 2. 

[Beorning]

Wait...

John Bolton draws such amazing vampire art

like this

*and* also plans coup d'etats? What a guy! 

[Oniya]

Er... Not the British John Bolton - the American John Bolton.

[stormwyrm]

So by that same reasoning, given how the Gunpowder Plot failed, they shouldn't have done anything to Guy Fawkes???

Miscarry, miscarry the sixth of January
The Capitol Treason and Plot
I can think of no reason
Why the Capitol Treason
Should ever be forgot...

The Elizabethan poet John Harington (not sure if he is related to Kit Harington of GoT fame; he did come from an ancient family) once wrote:

Treason doth never prosper? What's the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason.

But he now seems to be wrong these days. Even though it doth not prosper, still none dare call it treason! 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

[Beorning]

Er... Not the British John Bolton - the American John Bolton.

I was joking, obviously

Anyway, I looked at this guy's Wiki entry. He seems pretty awful...

Still, while his comment makes a good joke, it's not a good legal argument. Obviously, you don't judge criminal acts on the basis whether they were executed in a sensible matter...

[gaggedLouise]

I was joking, obviously

Anyway, I looked at this guy's Wiki entry. He seems pretty awful...

Still, while his comment makes a good joke, it's not a good legal argument. Obviously, you don't judge criminal acts on the basis whether they were executed in a sensible matter...

It's amazing that he openly admits to having helped plan some coups d'Etat, considering that he used to be the UN ambassador of the US (though he was quite abrasive on that post).

[Beorning]

Speaking more seriously, what's happening with the hearings currently? The last I checked, the commitee showed some materials on how people from Trump's circle were helping Proud Boys et al. to coordinate their preparations for January 6th?

[Oniya]

There's one more hearing scheduled for the 21st - supposedly going to be aired during prime-time - which is going to show the activity (and lack thereof) in/from the White House during the riot.  Basically, the focus is going to be on the fact that Pence was the person calling in support, while Trump did absolutely nothing in that regard.

[gaggedLouise]

So, Trump has officially announced he will be making a 2024 run. Personally I think he won't stand a chance, for all his chutzpah and angry audacity he is a spent force by now and loads of people will be lining up to vote just to keep him out of the White House at all costs. He's on a downhill slope, he risks being ordered to turn up in several courtrooms on serious charges (New York City soon - they postponed it a little due to the sudden death of his ex-wife). He has been looking tired and really out of focus ever since he left office, and the tide is against him.

I can't help wondering though, how many republicans are going to dare challenge him in the primaries? Trump surely expects the GOP to crown him without any open opposition and without any questions about what he wants the platform to be about.

[TheVillain]

Kind of hoping Trump and DeSantis eat each other.

Also been kind of amused how the Dems were going to get slaughtered in the Primaries and I still think they’ll come out the overall losers but each time the GOP opens it’s mouth it’s to hand the Dems a gift.

[gaggedLouise]

Neither Pence nor Cruz would dare to make a primary run when Trump is also going into the field, would they? Because it would cast them as "traitors" or "RINOs" in the eyes of so much of the party, its top brass and its media. Also, it would force those two men to make some clear statements of what they think about January 6 and the way Trump behaved.