Coronavirus: Discussion and Information

[Twisted Crow]

I have not (yet) been vaccinated.  So, this makes me wonder which one I might be on this "if you aren't vaxxed, yet -- then you must be stupid" whole line of reasoning.   

William of Ockham called, and he wants his razor back... 

Anyway, I say this because I feel that we should be positively pushing (as a society) against this pandemic while considering the creature of humanity as an array of variables. There is more to the equation than what is being presented. And I find some such statements to be a little uncomfortable to read.

You see, aside from a loud (and obnoxious) 'anti-vax' crowd, I have spoken with numerous other folks around the world (in my new... um... "career" that I don't want to get into on the public side of Elliquiy) over several months that are still legit afraid that the vaccines don't work, or "only one type does and another doesn't". Or one type maybe works and another just makes you more vulnerable. There is brewing fear of things like the Delta variant and conflicting reports and sources on whether or not the vaccine is effective against it. All I am saying is, there are more variables. This experience tells me that there is still a lot of misinformation.

My point is that wholesale calling people morons when they could either very well be just that or perhaps genuinely afraid and confused isn't going to help us curve this problem. It's only going to further entrench people where they stand, be it ignorance and/or fear.

Consider this... People aren't likely going to consider the point of view of someone that is being an asshole. It doesn't even matter if that asshole happens to be correct about the points they could be making. They are just going to be thinking about what an asshole they were and write off whatever merit their argument had to begin with.

[Blythe]

...In case my post wasn't clear, I am specifically talking about people where I live, Dallas. Not 'everyone in general' who isn't vaccinated.

The type of people that call it "The biden shot" and talk about vaccines shedding viral loads in my area. The types of people who actively think that it's fine to let people die because they think they are somehow part of the 'strong' who will outlive people who catch coronavirus.

So...yes, I think people that think like that are stupid. And unbelievably cruel on top of that. The sorts of people who are looking at the death counts we have and see this as acceptable? They weren't going to change their mind, and they aren't going to. They've seen the death tolls and accept this as a cost they are more than happy to let other people pay. I do not have words other than stupid and cruel to describe those mindsets, and those mindsets are prevalent where I live. They are literally the dominant mindsets in my area.

My post did not talk about people who are otherwise reasonable who are unvaccinated, like the ones who will wear masks and social distance, who do not take issue with others being vaccinated. Besides, there are also immunocompromised people who can't be vaccinated, and I also respect they can't. Half the reason I got vaccinated was to help try to protect people that literally cannot get the vaccine. Those folks? I got no problem with them provided they still take the pandemic seriously.

[Twisted Crow]

Oh, I wasn't so much referring to your post, Bly. I felt like you were providing sufficient context.

As I was updating myself on the posts that I have been behind on, I felt that I would give a bit of nudge for everyone participating in this conversation that we should consider more variables than (what appeared to me) this thread seemed to be going, direction-wise.

[Oniya]

I read an article the other day about the antivax culture around the Lake of the Ozarks:

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/07/27/ozarks-lake-covid-unvaccinated-500784

When someone there did die after contracting COVID, the talk around the area was that 'something else must have been wrong with him.'

[Iniquitous]

I have not (yet) been vaccinated.  So, this makes me wonder which one I might be on this "if you aren't vaxxed, yet -- then you must be stupid" whole line of reasoning.   

William of Ockham called, and he wants his razor back... 

Anyway, I say this because I feel that we should be positively pushing (as a society) against this pandemic while considering the creature of humanity as an array of variables. There is more to the equation than what is being presented. And I find some such statements to be a little uncomfortable to read.

You see, aside from a loud (and obnoxious) 'anti-vax' crowd, I have spoken with numerous other folks around the world (in my new... um... "career" that I don't want to get into on the public side of Elliquiy) over several months that are still legit afraid that the vaccines don't work, or "only one type does and another doesn't". Or one type maybe works and another just makes you more vulnerable. There is brewing fear of things like the Delta variant and conflicting reports and sources on whether or not the vaccine is effective against it. All I am saying is, there are more variables. This experience tells me that there is still a lot of misinformation.

My point is that wholesale calling people morons when they could either very well be just that or perhaps genuinely afraid and confused isn't going to help us curve this problem. It's only going to further entrench people where they stand, be it ignorance and/or fear.

Consider this... People aren't likely going to consider the point of view of someone that is being an asshole. It doesn't even matter if that asshole happens to be correct about the points they could be making. They are just going to be thinking about what an asshole they were and write off whatever merit their argument had to begin with.

Here's my thing, and you can consider me an asshole if you want - I am totally okay with that.  Science has said, without a doubt, that the vaccines help.  They have been upfront and said it is not 100%.  They have said, over and over, this doesn't keep you from getting covid - it makes it so that you are not going to get so sick as to need a hospital and/or die.  They have said, over and over, that these vaccines will help to slow the spread.

What more do you and those who are 'scared' need? A writ from a deity telling you it is okay? Because at this point, I have absolutely NO sympathy or empathy for anyone who can take the vaccine and doesn't.  People who are holding out are dying and their last words are "I wish I had gotten the vaccine"  ( https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/07/31/unvaccinated-las-vegas-man-died-regretting-not-getting-vaccine-fiance/5442240001/ ) ( https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/unvaccinated-hospitalized-patients-say-they-regret-not-getting-shot-n1273342 ) ( https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/08/02/over-over-same-refrain-people-sick-with-covid-i-wish-id-gotten-vaccine/ )

My son didn't get the vaccine ( "I'm not a guinea pig" ) and got covid for a SECOND TIME.  My response? "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Get the damn vaccine as soon as you are cleared to."  Yeah, I called and checked on him and his fiancee to make sure they were doing okay.  Yeah, I worried.  But it was their idiotic choice to not get it that landed them sick.  And he was military so I KNOW his ass was shot full of vaccines.

A friend of mine didn't get the vaccine ( "I'm a stubborn asshole" ) and got covid recently.  My response? "Did you get the vaccine?" When he said no and why, I told him he is a fool. He whined I was being mean and I reminded him I don't sugarcoat anything.  He's getting the vaccine as soon as he is cleared to.

At this point you really have no logical reason to not get the vaccine.  If you are old enough and able to get it and you don't, you are a fool and you are contributing to the problem. 

[Chantarelle]

We’re treating the vaccine as a one size fits all and the only legit answer when we all know that vaccines will always be a trigger and non starter for many people who do not and will never trust big pharma or the government. There is no reason why we can’t tackle covid in more than one way, for example using prophylactics and/or just getting healthier in general. Obesity is a huge contributing factor to deaths (in general let alone covid). I’d like to know why their is no government outreach or campaign urging people to lose weight and the lack of such an easy outreach program probably also contributes to the mistrust in all honestly.

[Oniya]

We’re treating the vaccine as a one size fits all and the only legit answer when we all know that vaccines will always be a trigger and non starter for many people who do not and will never trust big pharma or the government. There is no reason why we can’t tackle covid in more than one way, for example using prophylactics and/or just getting healthier in general. Obesity is a huge contributing factor to deaths (in general let alone covid). I’d like to know why their is no government outreach or campaign urging people to lose weight and the lack of such an easy outreach program probably also contributes to the mistrust in all honestly.

You mean like this one?:  https://letsmove.obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/

[Chantarelle]

You mean like this one?:  https://letsmove.obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/

No. I mean like one that’s as in your face mainstream and culturally talked about and lauded as the body positivity movement. I want to turn on the news and see Fauci talking about obesity and health and it’s risks concerning covid just as much as I see him talking about vaccines.

[TheGlyphstone]

You think the people who won't listen to the experts on vaccines will start listening to then about something else? The lack of trust is the disease, not the symptom; they turn to quack solutions like hydroxocloriquine and ilvermectin and colloidal silver because they aren't endorsed by 'big pharma' and the government, and they look to blame other causes of death because it allows them to lessen the perceived severity of the virus. Put Fauci on TV esposing healthy diets as a way to reduce Covid risk and they'll start scarfing down double cheeseburgers every meal because the Gubmint said it so it must be wrong.

They can't be reached at this point, the only thing we can do is protect the people who might still be salvageable.

[Oniya]

Well, for one thing, it would look really weird for an immunologist to be giving dietary information.  Not his field of expertise and all that.  However, the USDA Food and Nutrition Services Department has a number of healthy eating campaigns.  Useful stuff, even if you aren't on the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program.

But, back to COVID.

My local area has six counties that are now in the substantial spread category.  Despite this, the governor and county leaders are not reimposing a mask mandate, although certain businesses are. 

https://www.health.pa.gov/topics/disease/coronavirus/Pages/Cases.aspx

You can see on this page the 'hotspots' (dark red counties) and the places where folks have gotten even partially vaccinated (blue-scale map below that)  The pictures are rather telling when you compare what counties have the highest per-capita number of cases versus the ones with the highest per-capita rate of vaccination.

[Chantarelle]

You think the people who won't listen to the experts on vaccines will start listening to then about something else? The lack of trust is the disease, not the symptom; they turn to quack solutions like hydroxocloriquine and ilvermectin and colloidal silver because they aren't endorsed by 'big pharma' and the government, and they look to blame other causes of death because it allows them to lessen the perceived severity of the virus. Put Fauci on TV esposing healthy diets as a way to reduce Covid risk and they'll start scarfing down double cheeseburgers every meal because the Gubmint said it so it must be wrong.

They can't be reached at this point, the only thing we can do is protect the people who might still be salvageable.

Yes, I think that we need to employ every option, alternative and tactic.

Yes, I think that being told realistically that we live in an era of viral pandemics and so in order to combat that reality as a human being that we will need to be less fat and healthier in general would yes, be a smaller pill to swallow than telling a population skeptical of government (and with good reason) that they will have to inject a substance (made up of ingredients that the average person will not look into) created by big pharma. Yes, I think (in my opinion) it is beyond a necessary and moral thing to do.

Well, for one thing, it would look really weird for an immunologist to be giving dietary information.  Not his field of expertise and all that.  However, the USDA Food and Nutrition Services Department has a number of healthy eating campaigns.  Useful stuff, even if you aren't on the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program.

But, back to COVID.

My local area has six counties that are now in the substantial spread category.  Despite this, the governor and county leaders are not reimposing a mask mandate, although certain businesses are. 

https://www.health.pa.gov/topics/disease/coronavirus/Pages/Cases.aspx

You can see on this page the 'hotspots' (dark red counties) and the places where folks have gotten even partially vaccinated (blue-scale map below that)  The pictures are rather telling when you compare what counties have the highest per-capita number of cases versus the ones with the highest per-capita rate of vaccination.

Placing the fact aside that I don’t believe that it would look weird at all for any human being to tell other human beings that it’s best to be healthy in general (less obese), I don’t think that I have deviated from the topic of covid.

[stormwyrm]

The lack of trust is the disease, not the symptom; they turn to quack solutions like hydroxocloriquine and ilvermectin and colloidal silver because they aren't endorsed by 'big pharma' and the government...

Umm, who do they think makes hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, and colloidal silver? Do these people imagine that these grow on trees or something? The big pharma companies operate huge chemical plants to make these things. The raw materials for making most of these drugs would be stuff the average person would not understand.

..telling a population skeptical of government (and with good reason) that they will have to inject a substance (made up of ingredients that the average person will not look into) created by big pharma.

"A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works."

[Dhi]

Yes, I think that we need to employ every option, alternative and tactic.

What you're asking for already exists. State health organizations back health initiatives relentlessly, within the means and authority afforded by state government. Ultimately, even if all of that functions as intended, it's not easy for people to lose weight and get in shape. It takes time.

I don't think this is easier than putting pressure on those whose gut feelings are telling them not to get vaccinated. Thankfully we don't have to choose.

[Chantarelle]

What you're asking for already exists. State health organizations back health initiatives relentlessly, within the means and authority afforded by state government. Ultimately, even if all of that functions as intended, it's not easy for people to lose weight and get in shape. It takes time.

I don't think this is easier than putting pressure on those whose gut feelings are telling them not to get vaccinated. Thankfully we don't have to choose.

What do you mean “thankfully we don’t have to choose”?

But you are correct, as callous as some are being to those who’s conscientious risk assessment just can’t allow them to get the vaccine, ppl could be just as callous to those who are obese but in either case it generally isn’t appreciated and so maybe just maybe we should try being kind and patient to each other as human beings. Vaccinating is not an easy choice for everyone just like losing weight isn’t an easy thing to do for everyone and so we need to be empathetic to each other and patient and fortunately we have and some of us do use the freedom we have to choose not to be empathetic to others and that is their right just as it is the right of others (like myself) to be empathetic to everyone regardless of tribe or circumstance.

[TheGlyphstone]

The only sort of 'conscientious risk assessment' that legitimately could keep someone from being vaccinated is consultation with an accredited medical professional. Anything else is simple selfishness or ignorance, and I see nothing immoral about lacking empathy for a person who is deliberately and willfully putting other peoples lives at risk because they watched some YouTube video or read a Facebook post that says vaccines are bad. I'm not going to wish death on them or anything, but I am certainly not going to pretend their beliefs are valid or justified.

[Chantarelle]

The only sort of 'conscientious risk assessment' that legitimately could keep someone from being vaccinated is consultation with an accredited medical professional. Anything else is simple selfishness or ignorance, and I see nothing immoral about lacking empathy for a person who is deliberately and willfully putting other peoples lives at risk because they watched some YouTube video or read a Facebook post that says vaccines are bad. I'm not going to wish death on them or anything, but I am certainly not going to pretend their beliefs are valid or justified.

“The only sort of 'conscientious risk assessment' that legitimately could keep someone from being vaccinated is consultation with an accredited medical professional.”

In your opinion, as I’m sure not every “medical professional” is above political bias and is a virologist (is what an “anti-Vaxxer” would say).

“Anything else is simple selfishness or ignorance, and I see nothing immoral about lacking empathy for a person who is deliberately and willfully putting other peoples lives at risk because they watched some YouTube video or read a Facebook post that says vaccines are bad.”

In your opinion.

Even if it is a Facebook post or YouTube video, it is what it is but it still is and it will go against what you and/or the “mainstream” deem to be the correct way to go and it is this discrepancy that is and always will be the freedom to choose, like it or not. Now, we could take away that freedom and I imagine that we (society/government) will try to do just that but that of course, will ultimately set a precedent that everyone will have to live with for the better or for the worse and this precedent itself will be a slippery slope and this is merely stating a fact.

Also, in saying all this I am playing into the detouring if my actual point which honestly I should not be doing at all which was to say that there should not be a “one size fits all”, “vaccine or bust” answer, rather there should be various answers, prophylactics or diet/health for starters. The only wrong answer (in, not just my opinion being) defaulting to tribalism, us against (pro-vax, mainstream) vs. (anti-vax, “fringe”) thought paradigms which honestly is what whoever “they” would want us to do.

[Blythe]

Even if it is a Facebook post or YouTube video, it is what it is but it still is and it will go against what you and/or the “mainstream” deem to be the correct way to go and it is this discrepancy that is and always will be the freedom to choose, like it or not. Now, we could take away that freedom and I imagine that we (society/government) will try to do just that but that of course, will ultimately set a precedent that everyone will have to live with for the better or for the worse and this precedent itself will be a slippery slope and this is merely stating a fact.

That precedent was set a long time ago in 1905 because of smallpox. Vaccine mandates or requirements are a huge part in USA history in dealing with pandemics or plagues. There's no 'slippery slope' as you describe because it's been long understood and enshrined as constitutional that individual freedoms do not trump the right of the collective good in the case of a health crisis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts

We do not have the freedom to choose the way you think we do, and we have not for over one hundred years.

And society has been better for it, because less people died of completely avoidable illnesses.

[Twisted Crow]

*sigh*

I'm opting out of this discussion. I am kinda done with people improperly transposing what I say and/or putting words in my mouth.

You folks have at it. 

[Oniya]

For the sake of conversation, the discussion about the Coronavirus and obesity has been split to its own thread here.

Please remember the rules about misinformation as well as those about civility.

[Chantarelle]

Wait. What? Why? Pretend I’m stupid, which may or may not be a far fetched way to judge me upon viewing me from a certain angle. But could you pls explain why you mention misinformation and civility to me since I don’t see how I’ve expressed or disseminated any misinformation or been uncivil in any way? Or why my topic of general health concerning discussion or information on covid has to be placed in a different thread altogether?

[Chantarelle]

For the record and to clarify, I’m fine with a new thread I’m just curious as to the reasoning for it is all.

[Blythe]

I would guess it's because obesity and health is actually a pretty big topic that would be hard to keep to just being about it's effects regarding covid-19. Obesity is a risk factor for numerous illnesses, and it's pretty much undisputed amongst healthcare professionals that healthy diet and weight control are generally excellent things to do in regards to helping fight off illness or avoiding contracting illness. Like...it's not even an opinion a person needs to have; it's a more of an accepted medical fact that obesity is a factor in health and that weight loss in a healthy manner has beneficial effects.

And because earlier your stance was less about people being unvaccinated due to medical exemptions and was due to discussing people's fear of big pharma--fear-mongering against vaccines or trying to justify or support why others do it has never really been my thread's intent or purpose.

People who have a specific medical exemption to avoid vaccination (such as being immunocompromised) need to talk to their doctors about that they need to do to protect their health during the pandemic, but the majority of responsible doctors are telling them to mask up, social distance, and even quarantine again if in a high-risk area (red or orange on the maps indicating new covid cases).

It's not really that folks don't want to engage you on your point, I would imagine, it's that you're veering into a very broad topic that is going to touch on far more than just coronavirus so it probably would need its own thread.

[Oniya]

Wait. What? Why? Pretend I’m stupid, which may or may not be a far fetched way to judge me upon viewing me from a certain angle. But could you pls explain why you mention misinformation and civility to me since I don’t see how I’ve expressed or disseminated any misinformation or been uncivil in any way? Or why my topic of general health concerning discussion or information on covid has to be placed in a different thread altogether?

I mentioned it to everyone.  It is a topic that is likely to get heated, and so a reminder of the PROC rules is in order.

[Azuresun]

There is no reason why we can’t tackle covid in more than one way, for example using prophylactics and/or just getting healthier in general.

But you are correct, as callous as some are being to those who’s conscientious risk assessment just can’t allow them to get the vaccine

“The only sort of 'conscientious risk assessment' that legitimately could keep someone from being vaccinated is consultation with an accredited medical professional.”

In your opinion, as I’m sure not every “medical professional” is above political bias and is a virologist (is what an “anti-Vaxxer” would say).

Even if it is a Facebook post or YouTube video, it is what it is but it still is and it will go against what you and/or the “mainstream” deem to be the correct way to go

Just use diet and exercise. It's actually possible to make a "conscientious risk assessment" and not get the vaccine. Doctors are biased. "Mainstream" as a perjorative.

Your posts have a lot of common anti-vaxxer dog whistles in them.

[Chantarelle]

Just use diet and exercise. It's actually possible to make a "conscientious risk assessment" and not get the vaccine. Doctors are biased. "Mainstream" as a perjorative.

Your posts have a lot of common anti-vaxxer dog whistles in them.

Feel free to label my genuine and honest just thinking allowed anyway you’d like, I don’t mind.