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Author Topic: The problem with MMORPGS part II  (Read 2891 times)

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Online InkiduTopic starter

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The problem with MMORPGS part II
« on: March 19, 2009, 10:33:02 AM »
I've done a bit more research and while I'm a solitary gamer by nature. I never use followers in Fallout 3, or I play alone with the lights off. I don't deny that gaming can be a social function. I don't think that's what any online game is though. Not really. Yeah there's chat but never any communication. Unless you join a guild, and it has to be exceptional.

I literally can't believe a person would actually play money for an MMORPG. I've tested quite a few of the free ones (Because I'm not paying for it.) and they're all the same. They're all cookie-cutter, cut-and-paste formats. You can literally play Shaiya like you could WoW or Cabal. I see no point in paying for a "Daily Grind Simulator".

No MMORPG as far as I have researched never brings anything new to the table. They have there formula and they pull in subscriptions and premium dollars. It's gamer harvesting.
How are people not bored to tears?

Offline Oniya

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Re: The problem with MMORPGS part II
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2009, 10:53:52 AM »
Considering it usually takes me months to get through a regular offline RPG (I'll admit being queen of the grind at times), I'm right with you.  I'd be wanting to complete all the sidequests, and so I'd probably hold any party back - give me my console for RPGs.  I pay once, and by the time I'm done, it's actually worth it.

Online InkiduTopic starter

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Re: The problem with MMORPGS part II
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2009, 10:59:12 AM »
Well I hate to sound like an egomaniac but console RPGs make you (your character) more important. With MMORPGS. You're nothing more than a blip. It's annoying and I find very unsatisfying. The sad part is more and more games are becoming like this. Just "Grind Farms" for money harvesting.

Offline Oniya

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Re: The problem with MMORPGS part II
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2009, 11:05:03 AM »
Well I hate to sound like an egomaniac but console RPGs make you (your character) more important.

I like feeling important. :)  I'd rather be Frodo than 'random Hobbit #237345.'

Online InkiduTopic starter

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Re: The problem with MMORPGS part II
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2009, 11:06:48 AM »
It's really insignificant. You're doing the exact same quest everyone else is, and it's not even that good. "Go kill ten rabbits" God start me out on go save the princess please.

Online HairyHeretic

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Re: The problem with MMORPGS part II
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2009, 11:13:01 AM »
Have you experienced PvP / RvR as part of an MMO, and does that influence your opinion at all?

Online InkiduTopic starter

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Re: The problem with MMORPGS part II
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2009, 11:18:17 AM »
PvR? Not familiar

but all my PVP experiences have always been against more experienced, elitists who like "Pwning Teh Noobs" by using tricks they divined to gain unfair advantages over everyone else who doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning. I've always run into bullies like that.   

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Re: The problem with MMORPGS part II
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2009, 11:23:08 AM »
RvR is Realm versus Realm. Think PvP on a bigger scale, where your PvP action counts in the grand scheme of things by taking territory or what have you.

My only experience of PvP/RvR has been in WAR, and I'm generally happy with it. Generally you're acting alongside a warband in the PvP areas (I play on a Core server, where PvP is limited to particular regions). They've a nice mechanic in whereby if you're lower level, it automatically boosts your level a bit in the PvP zones, and if you're too powerful for the zone you're turned into a chicken.

It keeps it reasonably balanced, though weight of numbers does also help.

Online InkiduTopic starter

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Re: The problem with MMORPGS part II
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2009, 11:26:30 AM »
I still wouldn't pay for it.

Seriously though. You always get the jackasses (and there are a lot of them) who've reached level cap and then use ever glitch or bug or bit of obscure knowledge and just totally rape the new people and just tell them to "LTP".

Another thing is I've never felt a great sense of completion from an MMORPG. There's a story but who cares? Right? The story is always a backdrop to justify the grind.

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Re: The problem with MMORPGS part II
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2009, 11:39:06 AM »
Well, I can only speak for the games I've experienced, but that's not the way it works in WAR. There are 4 tiers of play, each set for a range of 10 levels. Once you get above those levels, the chicken mechanic kicks in. You simply cannot go munch on the newbies. The system doesn't let you.

Plus with the PvP only being in certain areas, it's your own choice to enter those. Personally I enjoy the PvP, even if I do probably die more than I kill :)

Same on Planetside, though thats a pure PvP / RvR MMOFPS. In that everyone has the same hitpoints and gear, so its down to skill for the main. Higher level characters just get to access more stuff at once, but since you can recert at any time, that's not that big a deal.

Getting into a battle with a few hundred other players, infantry, armour, aircraft .. it's a lot of fun. Me, I'm not a good close range fighter, but I have over 3000 sniper kills.

There's no story really in PS though .. it's just constant ongoing fighting.

Online InkiduTopic starter

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Re: The problem with MMORPGS part II
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2009, 11:41:30 AM »
We're not talking MMFPS love those, or MMORTS (find one that isn't cliche fantasy and free) we're talking MMORPGs. WoW or whatever. It is literally a painstaking grind, and I just don't understand how people put up with it. There is no real redeeming game play as far as I can see.

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Re: The problem with MMORPGS part II
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2009, 11:52:50 AM »
Everyone is going to find things they like and dislike in a game. I enjoy WAR as much for the setting as the game, but then I've been playing the tabletop game for over 20 years. The chance to create effectively my alter ego's from the table top, and run them around .. yeah, that's fun for me.

I also do more PvP / RvR than mission quests. Actually you can level up entirely by PvP in WAR.

Offline Aestas

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Re: The problem with MMORPGS part II
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2009, 12:04:22 PM »
I don't really think that free games give you a suitable base to judge the pay to play games.  They are entirely different animals.  I have played several pay to play games starting with Asheron's Call back in 98-99, EverQuest, AC2, DAoC, and more recently a stunt on WoW.  While some of the basics may be the same, games like WoW actually alleviate the need to Grind with constantly changing quests.  Not only that but daily updates that generally add more content to the game (as opposed to free games who's daily down time is only used to fix problems, or create more problems, either way.)

Now mind you, I agree with HH there that you are going to find things you dislike (or like) with every game.  For me playing an MMO was ALWAYS about the social aspects.  helping newbs run dungeons.  Chatting with my guild.  Helping SoNSo get their epic gear.. *shrugs*  Even sitting in a dungeon grinding is pretty fun when you got a great group of people to chat at while doing it.

But that's just me, the way you play sounds completely different than myself. *laughs*

Offline Samael

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Re: The problem with MMORPGS part II
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2009, 12:25:33 PM »
I've been in a similar position to Inkidu at first. The only true brush with an MMO I had was Ultima Online, and then it were free shards, where you didn't have to pay anything. I spend a good time trying out random MMOs to see how they are, the free variant, and often found myself disgusted by terrible engrish and a grind that makes you loose your faith in humanity.

Cue WoW. I tried the 10 days because a friend asked me to come play with them. I was -determined- to hate it. Hate it. So, I went with negative expectations into it, rolled an Orc Hunter (because I was always partial to the Monster races), played him up a little... at first it seemed your standard game. Fetch 10 of those, kill 15 of these, but it was kept interesting. Not only through lore, and stories, which you get a lot, but also due to the fact you get new skills pretty much every 2 to 4 levels, and you level -quickly- in WoW. You can go from 1 to 10 in two-three hours, easily.

It also helps that you move between zones. You are not confined to one for like 4 months, before you are -strong enough!- to get somewhere else. Within the first 15 levels or so you move from the starter town, to a larger one, up to the very capital of your race, with a lot of different things to do and to see. Professions keep things shaken up a little, so you can gain nice extras that way. The journey itself is very enjoyable, as I learned, surprisingly, and I loved every second of it.

The Game keeps the grind itself very low simply because they want to get you to the end game as quickly as possible, which -can- involve grinding, for fraction reputation and such so you can get new enchants and gear, but those things are done in a way that you can simply take an afternoon now and then and get it done. In fact, often it's not even all that bad. PvP is... interesting. Usually you only fight in your own level bracket (if you are level 44, then all your opponents will be level 40-49), if you go into battlegrounds. If you don't want to do any PvP outside of that, just keep yourself on PvE servers and non flagged, and keep out of designated pvp zones. You will not have to deal with it until you want to.

WoW is an incredibly, incredibly polished game. Sure, there are some bugs now and then, but levelling and playing goes so very very smoothly. It's nearly scary. Plus, there is a seriously neat reward system build into that game. Next to every quest you do is worth it. Be it for Xp, rep, or items you get in reward. They are mostly always upgrades, so you never really feel like you did it for nothing. I'd suggest you try the 10 day trial and check it out.

It is totally not comparable to Free to Play games, where they try to keep you in the grind so you play longer, and buy XP potions from the shops (RL money) for enhanced XP gaining, etc.

Online InkiduTopic starter

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Re: The problem with MMORPGS part II
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2009, 01:50:54 PM »
MMORPGS do not equal social interaction by any stretch of the imagination. Besides I'm not going to pay to keep playing a freaking game. Oh instead of paying once for a game lets make them pay every freaking month. No, I'm in fact disgusted by downloadable content because it's just an excuse to get more money. Just like Nintendo's peripheral whoring. It's pure and simple greed and it's sad.

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Re: The problem with MMORPGS part II
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2009, 03:03:25 PM »
You're paying every month because it takes money to run the infrastructure, fund further development and so on. The way I look at it, I pay the same for a months MMO access as I do for 2-3 hours in the cinema. Seems to me I'm getting my moneys worth where entertainment is concerned.

Offline Amberghylles

Re: The problem with MMORPGS part II
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2009, 03:06:50 PM »
MMORPGS do not equal social interaction by any stretch of the imagination.

I won't argue the pay per month or not aspect.  That's entirely a matter of what you place value on and what you can afford.

But I am going to respond to this statement because you state your opinion as fact and it's not.

MMORPGs can and do have social interaction.  I have seen it and done it.  It's not a given, and it doesn't just happen automatically.  But a person can play with friends, and even make new ones while playing.

It's really the only thing they have to make them better then console games for me, since I don't enjoy PvP.  But I do like getting on and talking to a friend that lives states away on voice chat while we kill pixels together.

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Re: The problem with MMORPGS part II
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2009, 03:11:36 PM »
I've never seen anything closely resembling manners. Manners are a requirement for social interaction. Internet gaming is far too anonymous. How many people are actually acting like they would in real life? It's fake. People insult one another just because they can. 

EDIT: Yes it's opinion, and know I wasn't passing it off as fact I was passing it off as personal experience. Maybe I've had a bad run in with MMORPG denizens but it's obviously going to sway my opinion. 
« Last Edit: March 19, 2009, 03:15:37 PM by Inkidu »

Offline Amberghylles

Re: The problem with MMORPGS part II
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2009, 03:23:06 PM »
*shrugs*

Oh there's piles of jerks it's true.  Just like any other place on the internet that's open to the public. 

But I have friends who play, and I play with them.  I have a standing online date night with my long distance girlfriend since we're not close enough to go out in person and we both enjoy playing.

And I've seen quite a few people with manners while playing, not as many as the jerks but they're out there.

Now, I will admit, the core of my friends that I play with are people I went in with knowing them from elsewhere.  So, maybe it's not for you, but you shouldn't discount that some of us can and do have enjoyable social interactions via MMORPGs.

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Re: The problem with MMORPGS part II
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2009, 03:27:06 PM »
This is a digression but my main problem with the MMORPG to be waste of a game.

What you get don't get with MMORPGS:

1. An engaging battle system that breaks away from the mold of turn for turn fighting Nope turn based stat combat.

2. An engaging story that matters! No, how about shameless justification for a game?

3. A sense of accomplishment beyond the next level or piece of swag! Yeah good luck your more insignificant than the Star War Christmas special.

4. A free-roam environment that lets you explore it fully and at your own leisure!  Except jumping, climbing, swimming are irrelevant or not even included.

MMORPGs are stone aged equivalents of modern gaming and honestly, I just don't see the appeal. Having a ton of people to do it with doesn't make up for it.

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Re: The problem with MMORPGS part II
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2009, 05:12:12 PM »
*just blinks*

I guess all that this proves is that MMO gaming is what you make it.  I really don't see the point of arguing the points you've tried, unsuccessfully, to refute above.  I mean, it's your opinion and you're completely welcome to it. 

But it all comes down to what you put in is what you get out.  I enjoy interacting with people online, and no not all of them are gems, but I've found that a great number of them are.

The stories are engaging, if you allow yourself to be engaged.  If you're not into that type of thing, that's fine too.  *shrugs* 

I've enjoyed my experiences.  I was very sad when my last MMO home began to go into decline (DAoC) I might even still be playing it if it hadn't.  :)

And once again I need to stress that your experiences on FtP games really don't count as an adequate reference for games like WoW.  *shrugs*
« Last Edit: March 19, 2009, 05:32:12 PM by Aestas »

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Re: The problem with MMORPGS part II
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2009, 05:31:13 PM »
This is a digression but my main problem with the MMORPG to be waste of a game.

What you get don't get with MMORPGS:

1. An engaging battle system that breaks away from the mold of turn for turn fighting Nope turn based stat combat.

I'm not sure what games you've played, but turn based makes no sense to me here. The action is live in an MMO. You decide what powers to attack with, what targets to go for, what tactics to use with your team (if you're in one).

2. An engaging story that matters! No, how about shameless justification for a game?

There is progression within the games I've seen. Events are played out. New stuff is opened up. New character types. New gear. New zones. I play CoH, WAR and Planetside. The stuff that is introduced in those is covered by my monthly fee.

3. A sense of accomplishment beyond the next level or piece of swag! Yeah good luck your more insignificant than the Star War Christmas special.

As opposed to what? What does a non MMO give you in this regard?

4. A free-roam environment that lets you explore it fully and at your own leisure!  Except jumping, climbing, swimming are irrelevant or not even included.

Jumping - yes
Swimming - Yes
How about flying?
Teleporting?

I can do those too.

MMORPGs are stone aged equivalents of modern gaming and honestly, I just don't see the appeal. Having a ton of people to do it with doesn't make up for it.

Because you don't see the appeal doesn't mean that no one else does. And frankly, the sheer numbers that do play MMOs on a monthly basis would indicate that there are plenty of people who do.

At the end of the day, the game is what you make of it.

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Re: The problem with MMORPGS part II
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2009, 05:36:53 PM »
*Blinks softly while reading the responses*
Uhm.. about the place not being important in a social way?
You may wish to read this study, for example, which states that WoW is emerging as the new 'third place'.

    With about 12 million people playing World of Warcraft alone, MMOGs have become a new "third place" like "Cheers," where everyone knows your name and all that, Steinkuehler said.

    Players "hang out and engage with one another in informal social ways," she said. "Most people go for the game and stay for the people."

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13846_3-10161861-62.html

Which says the game has become very important for a lot of people -because- of the social aspects of it, and I would find myself in agreement.

Once more I must *stress* the difference between a Free to Play MMO and one that costs a few bucks per month, like WoW. I have played a -ton- of free MMOs, from Domo, to Silkroad, to bloodymare, to 2moon, to everything remotely looking nice and good, and it is a HUGE difference. The free to play games totally turned me off MMOs, WoW, with how consistent it is, with how well developed (and it's ongoing narrative, which is actually a selling point) is definitely different.

For example, as one of the Horde, you start out in a desertlike place, and later move into the 'barrens', which is a bit like the plains of africa, with lions, and such, and here, you learn about a strange danger in the south. During the next 40 levels or so, while you move from zone to zone, it unveils itself more, you learn what is going on there, what produces an abundance of huge insects (silithids) until, on the last zone, you encounter an ancient insect civilisation and its huge, forgotten city.

There are a ton of storylines running alongside you levelling, as well as more intimate ones, where you are sent out to find the lost wife of a farmer, only to learn she had been killed by some wild beasts, and the NPC cries as you bring something from her clothes back. Or you are sent out to retrieve a ring for a forsaken (The undead race), from his long dead wife. The NPC confides into you, as you return it, that he wishes that he could still feel, because then he would cry for his wife.

Interaction with others? I played Wow from March 2008 til December 2009. I've been in a few guilds, and while there can be drama, I also had a damn fine time there. Laughed, joked, had fun with other guildies, got together to go beating huge dragons in the old world, or fought alongside the great world events, to gear each other up with nice stuff. Once again, I never ever found an environment like that in one of the free MMOs, but in WoW? Abundance.

Btw, there are also several territories in the game where jumping and swimming comes useful, allows you to reach distant shores, and secretly hidden away islands, etc.

Although, that said, it is pretty much a personal thing. If one wants to pay for it monthly or not. If they consider it -worth- it, or not, and so on. To some it -is- worth it, and they do enjoy their time in the game(s), to others it is not. That is the neat thing with it being a totally optional thing. Different people have different priorities, and that is perfectly fine :)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2009, 05:40:50 PM by Samael »

Online InkiduTopic starter

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Re: The problem with MMORPGS part II
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2009, 05:39:38 PM »
Whatever is marked out is what a non MMO is.

The point was. Whenever had you really had to climb something. Actually jump? Most movement in an MMORPG can be done in walking and running.

For the last time I'm not talking about MMO's in general I'm talking about the MMORPG. They're turn based or ATB.

A sense of accomplishment? How good does it really feel beating the last boss of the game if fifteen people do it all around you ever second. (Exaggeration obviously.)

I know someone else might find the appeal but I won't understand why. You're basically saying my opinion is wrong. 

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Re: The problem with MMORPGS part II
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2009, 05:41:11 PM »
*Blinks softly while reading the responses*
Uhm.. about the place not being important in a social way?
You may wish to read this study, for example, which states that WoW is emerging as the new 'third place'.

    With about 12 million people playing World of Warcraft alone, MMOGs have become a new "third place" like "Cheers," where everyone knows your name and all that, Steinkuehler said.

    Players "hang out and engage with one another in informal social ways," she said. "Most people go for the game and stay for the people."

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13846_3-10161861-62.html

Which says the game has become very important for a lot of people -because- of the social aspects of it, and I would find myself in agreement.

Once more I must *stress* the difference between a Free to Play MMO and one that costs a few bucks per month, like WoW. I have played a -ton- of free MMOs, from Domo, to Silkroad, to bloodymare, to 2moon, to everything remotely looking nice and good, and it is a HUGE difference. The free to play games totally turned me off MMOs, WoW, with how consistent it is, with how well developed (and it's ongoing narrative, which is actually a selling point) is definitely different.

For example, as one of the Horde, you start out in a desertlike place, and later move into the 'barrens', which is a bit like the plains of africa, with lions, and such, and here, you learn about a strange danger in the south. During the next 40 levels or so, while you move from zone to zone, it unveils itself more, you learn what is going on there, what produces an abundance of huge insects (silithids) until, on the last zone, you encounter an ancient insect civilisation and its huge, forgotten city.

There are a ton of storylines running alongside you levelling, as well as more intimate ones, where you are sent out to find the lost wife of a farmer, only to learn she had been killed by some wild beasts, and the NPC cries as you bring something from her clothes back. Or you are sent out to retrieve a ring for a forsaken (The undead race), from his long dead wife. The NPC confides into you, as you return it, that he wishes that he could still feel, because then he would cry for his wife.

Interaction with others? I played Wow from March 2008 til December 2009. I've been in a few guilds, and while there can be drama, I also had a damn fine time there. Laughed, joked, had fun with other guildies, got together to go beating huge dragons in the old world, or fought alongside the great world events, to gear each other up with nice stuff. Once again, I never ever found an environment like that in one of the free MMOs, but in WoW? Abundance.

Btw, there are also several territories in the game where jumping and swimming comes useful, allows you to reach distant shores, and secretly hidden away islands, etc.

Although, that said, it is pretty much a personal thing. If one wants to pay for it monthly or not. If they consider it -worth- it, or not, and so on. To some it -is- worth it, and they do enjoy their time in the game(s), to others it is not. That is the neat thing with it being a totally optional thing. Different people have different priorities, and that is perfectly fine :)
Look I admit okay its social I'm saying as a game, they hold no appeal. Am I wrong for putting up my beliefs in that?