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Author Topic: A little philosophy...  (Read 3340 times)

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Offline Inkidu

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Re: A little philosophy...
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2009, 07:36:32 AM »
I don't get what the problem is if anillegal act does take place that could happen anywhere couldn't it?

Say you go to Carneval in Rio and get raped that doesn't mean they should stop Carnevalle.

And what if a woman really likes rough sex with strangers and doesn't mind getting raped since its not really rape in her case.

As a libertarian if they are warned what could happen, they are adults, enter voluntarily and are aware of the risks let them, the government has no right to protect people who are adults like parents for personal choices outside the public venue.
You're comparing an illegal, non-consensual  act with one that would theoretically be legal. They're not going to shut down Carneval because it's not about rape. They will shut down Murderland. it's legalizing murder. That's perverse. The ad for Carneval doesn't say, "Come to Carneval, get raped!" It will hopefully never be legal to have murderland and the world would be a sadder place if there was. Just because people can consensually enter into a murder agreement doesn't mean they're smart.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: A little philosophy...
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2009, 10:45:04 AM »
I think its stupid and insane but if they go in thinking they are likely to have bad things happen why is that suddenly wrong, if they are all at least eighteen.

I compare this simply its a free choice of an adult to take part in potentially risky behavior, smoking pot could be risky and its illegal now but I would defend an adults right to smoke it. I treat this as potential suicide over murder when the party enteringit may just want to die its their right to do so. Of course the government can regulate clubs and the like they could use that to regulate it such as demanding extensive cameras hidden inside and consent forms.

I find it despicable but I also find other things that so its not fair to foist my values on other persons even if they are being fools.

Offline Oniya

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Re: A little philosophy...
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2009, 10:57:43 AM »
I don't get what the problem is if anillegal act does take place that could happen anywhere couldn't it?

Say you go to Carneval in Rio and get raped that doesn't mean they should stop Carnevalle.

The difference here is that Carneval is not set up in a way where rape is permissible - as far as I know.

Quote
And what if a woman really likes rough sex with strangers and doesn't mind getting raped since its not really rape in her case.

This actually brings to mind an interesting thought-experiment that I came up with last night:  Suppose three people go into 'Murder Park': One with a clear intent of wanting to murder (M), one with a clear intent of committing rape (R), and one with a clear intent of wanting to be raped, but also a clear intent of not wanting to be killed (V).  Ideally, R and V would get together, and M would find someone else.  But suppose M finds V (or R!) first?  Has the park failed them?  Is it 'too bad, so sad'?

Offline consortium11

Re: A little philosophy...
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2009, 11:06:16 AM »
The park hasn't failed in any way at all.

The park has clearly stated that there are no limits for what will occur inside and all of the participants have agreed to this.

V may want to be raped and not murdered, but the park has said that either can happen without consequence. By entering the park she has accepted and consented to the fact that her being killed by m is entirely possible. If she was unwilling to risk getting murdered then she should not have entered the park and if she did anyway then it would not be fully informed consent.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: A little philosophy...
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2009, 11:10:11 AM »
Its actually a interesting Libertarian Philosophical point is an adult by their nature free to make choices if informed properly to engage in risky behaviour. I would say yes they have that free choice and right be that doing Cocaine or entering Murderpark, if they are properly informed of all the risks.

Offline DizziedTopic starter

Re: A little philosophy...
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2009, 12:08:34 PM »
1: If it involves the death of someone, then yes. Otherwise many mafia murders would be legal since you have entered into a contract that you failed to live up to (however you ended up failing them either from stealing from them, failure to live up to the conditions of the contract or simply being 'retired'). The idea of a Murder Park opens the gateway to sanctioned murder and other henious crimes.

 2: It's the intent and the fact you are an accomplice in the act that gets you in trouble. The fact the park owners would be providing an arena for people to murder and rape or worse, others puts them directly at fault as aiding and abbeting a crime.

3If you want to kill yourself, stick a gun in your mouth and pull the trigger or step in front of a train, the moment you ask someone else to do it, it becomes murder. Do you want people getting used to the fact thay can snuff a life so easily? Or become a 'criminal' so easily and not get caught? A place like that cheapens life far to much for my tastes.

 4And we let those people rule over us by electing the Congressmen and President that appoints these people to their post for life. By that fact alone, we consent to it.

1.The mafia killings are different- they don't consent to being killed.  They might make elaborate agreements and schemes, but I haven't ever seen a mobster movie where any of them actually agreed to die if he got caught squealing or something. 

2.I can kind of see what you mean about creating an environment for these 'heinous' crimes to occur, but I still don't think they are crimes if the people consent to it.  It's like opening a bondage club or a fight club.  If everyone inside is happy to be there, then I don't see why it ought to be illegal.

3.  Hunting deer or even squashing a cockroach is all akin to snuffing out life.  Human life may be a bit different, but I still fail to see why responsible adults should not be allowed to agree to an assisted suicide pact.  If Mr. Hannibal enjoys killing and eating people, and I don't want my corpse to go to waste, and I'm gonna die in 6 months anyway...well, whats wrong with letting Mr. Hannibal have his way?  He'll be less likely to exercise his desires on someone who isn't consenting, I think.  Thats good, right?

4.  I don't know about you, but I didn't vote for any of those cats in DC.  I didn't ask any of them to rule over me.  Sure, they got elected by a majority, but tyranny by majority is still tyranny.  They're restricting my freedoms without my consent.  Murder park sounds way more respective of my rights than that.

Quote
What if you change your mind when you're inside? You're no longer agreeing to be killed; does that mean you have to be allowed out immediately? If you're killed after you change your mind, is that murder? I'd think so. Most contracts have some sort of clause for renegotiation/escape. A contract that's enforced on pain of death is essentially indentured servitude.

Here's a variation described by Larry Niven in the story "Cloak of Anarchy." What if the park has robot drones that prevent anyone from actually causing physical harm to anyone else? Anything else is allowed, but no direct violence. Is this allowable? Preferable? A good model for a society?

You're a real idiot if you go in there without being sure that you wanna stay...but just like signing a contract, you can't really back out once you've done it.  I can see the danger involved with this, but I still think the park could be a respectable institution. 

As for the robots...well, now your just taking the fun out of it.   ;D


Offline MHaji

Re: A little philosophy...
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2009, 12:18:00 PM »
Quote
You're a real idiot if you go in there without being sure that you wanna stay...but just like signing a contract, you can't really back out once you've done it.

Stupidity does not cancel out basic human rights, and one can break a contract - it's just that there are financial or legal consequences for that. Contracts do not say "IF YOU CHANGE YOUR MIND, YOU DIE." That's not how they work in a sane society.

In other words, the park intended to be a place of absolute freedom turns out to be the opposite, a place of absolute tyranny, simply because once entering, one critical freedom is sacrificed: the freedom to leave alive.

It really is similar to the Mafia case. There's no explicit statement of agreement to die if you squeal after joining the Mafia, but it's definitely understood that in entering, you agree to that term. "Once you're in, you never get out." Likewise, the outlawed practice of indentured servitude resembles it, too.

Offline Greenthorn

Re: A little philosophy...
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2009, 12:27:32 PM »
Typo.  I mean to say, "I don't see why suicide should be illegal."  My bad.

Zakharra, what I'm really wondering here is why these things are illegal if people want to subject themselves to it.  What gives government the right to take away a person's rights like this?  If they want to do it, how does government have legitimate authority to stop them?

Would you allow a 3 year old child to drink Clorox...or a 12 year old child to huff butane...or your 22 year old friend to drink themselves to death?  *shrugs* Someone has to think logically for those who do not!

Offline Zakharra

Re: A little philosophy...
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2009, 02:20:09 PM »
 
Quote
1.The mafia killings are different- they don't consent to being killed.  They might make elaborate agreements and schemes, but I haven't ever seen a mobster movie where any of them actually agreed to die if he got caught squealing or something.

 By joining them you accept the penalties that they can use to enforce their laws/contracts.

 
Quote
2.I can kind of see what you mean about creating an environment for these 'heinous' crimes to occur, but I still don't think they are crimes if the people consent to it.  It's like opening a bondage club or a fight club.  If everyone inside is happy to be there, then I don't see why it ought to be illegal.

 The difference is in those clubs, people are not consenting to being tortured and killed. In those clubs who consents? Do they just grab anyone they want in the clubs and tie them up to play with? Or does the person have to consent in there?  I highly doubt that the patrons of the club do not have a choice while in the club to participate or just watch.

 The murder park scenario you put forth is very limited in that once you enter, you 'agree' to have anything done to you. What if somone just wants to beat someone up? Not kill? It removes all freedoms.

 
Quote
3.  Hunting deer or even squashing a cockroach is all akin to snuffing out life.  Human life may be a bit different, but I still fail to see why responsible adults should not be allowed to agree to an assisted suicide pact.  If Mr. Hannibal enjoys killing and eating people, and I don't want my corpse to go to waste, and I'm gonna die in 6 months anyway...well, whats wrong with letting Mr. Hannibal have his way?  He'll be less likely to exercise his desires on someone who isn't consenting, I think.  Thats good, right?

 I do not equate the life of a bug or deer close to being near a human life. If someone wants to kill themselves, there are ways to do it without involving others in the process. Tie rocks to your legs and jump in a lake. OD on pills. Step in front of a train, shoot yourself in the head.
 
 The Hannibal example doesn't work. A person might like eating people, but he looked at people as a food source. Like deer or cattle, to be herded and killed when necessary for food. I would not want to foster that sort of attitude in people by having places that cater to that behaviour.

 
Quote
4.  I don't know about you, but I didn't vote for any of those cats in DC.  I didn't ask any of them to rule over me.  Sure, they got elected by a majority, but tyranny by majority is still tyranny.  They're restricting my freedoms without my consent.  Murder park sounds way more respective of my rights than that.

 If you live in the US, you agree to be governed by them. The freedoms you want would lead to complete anarchy. We have freedoms, yes, but within reason to allow for a civilized society.  You also called it a tryanny, what makes it a tryanny? Because they make laws that do not let you do anything you want? You CAN take your own life if you want. The fact you live here means you GIVE consent to it. Don't like it? Leave.

 If not a tyranny of  the majority, what about a tyranny of the minority? If the majority cannot make the rules and a minority can, what's to prevent them from becoming a tyranny that does not take the view of what is good  for the majority into consideration. Would you see that a good thing?

« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 04:37:47 PM by Zakharra »

Offline Oniya

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Re: A little philosophy...
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2009, 02:32:30 PM »
4.  I don't know about you, but I didn't vote for any of those cats in DC.  I didn't ask any of them to rule over me.  Sure, they got elected by a majority, but tyranny by majority is still tyranny.  They're restricting my freedoms without my consent.  Murder park sounds way more respective of my rights than that.

Did you at least vote against them?

If someone wants to kill themselves, there are ways to do it without involving others in the process. Tie rocks to your legs and jump in a lake. OD on pills. Step in front of a train, shoot yourself in the head.

I'd leave the train out of that list.  I've heard the kind of trauma that can inflict on the poor engineer that sees a person on the tracks and knows that there's no way to stop the train in time.  *shudder*  (It takes over a mile for the average train to come to a stop, even on full brakes which risks derailing the train and killing those aboard as well.)

Offline Inkidu

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Re: A little philosophy...
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2009, 04:23:42 PM »
Quote
4.  I don't know about you, but I didn't vote for any of those cats in DC.  I didn't ask any of them to rule over me.  Sure, they got elected by a majority, but tyranny by majority is still tyranny.  They're restricting my freedoms without my consent.  Murder park sounds way more respective of my rights than that.

First off. If you just didn't vote. You still have to abide, you abstained you're saying, "I don't want to be a participant." If you can't vote there are issues elsewhere. However, by your philosophy any person of legal majority should be able to walk into a place and risk murder. Yet you're not willing to abide by a nation who has decide to elect it's political officials by vote; calling it tyranny?