The Case for Abolishing ICE

[Skynet]

John Kelly, a former Secretary of Homeland Security, put in the very policies to establish the ICE camps for juveniles. He did this on account that he before his role as Secretary he sat on the Board of Directors of Caliburn International, a company which helps construct and profit said prisons. The only ones in the country for immigrant children, in fact. After serving his time in office he then rejoined Caliburn on that very same board, effectively directing said policy to line his own pockets with money. All at the expense of said childrens' safety and welfare.

Source List.

[Kurogane]

John Kelly, a former Secretary of Homeland Security, put in the very policies to establish the ICE camps for juveniles. He did this on account that he before his role as Secretary he sat on the Board of Directors of Caliburn International, a company which helps construct and profit said prisons. The only ones in the country for immigrant children, in fact. After serving his time in office he then rejoined Caliburn on that very same board, effectively directing said policy to line his own pockets with money. All at the expense of said childrens' safety and welfare.

Source List.

I'm sorry, did you say Dick Cheney and Halliburton?

[Tolvo]

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/03/border-agency-secret-facebook-group-1569572

More on that Facebook group and how DHS has known about its existence for years and was aware of the content of fit.

[Skynet]

According to Wikipedia the CBP has around 60,000 employees. So even if say as few as 8,000 of their 9,500 Facebook membership belonged to the organization, that could be as few as 1 out of 8 or as much as 1 out of 6 CBP agents approving or tolerating this behavior.

In related news, a pediatrician shares what she's witnessed when allowed into a Border Patrol warehouse. Some harrowing excerpts:

At Ursula, however, the children Sevier examined—like the panting 2-year-old—were “totally fearful, but then entirely subdued,” she told me. She could read the fear in their faces, but they were perfectly submissive to her authority. “I can only explain it by trauma, because that is such an unusual behavior,” she said. Sevier had brought along Mickey Mouse toys to break the ice, and the kids seem to enjoy playing with them. Yet none resisted, she said, when she took them away at the end of the exam. “At some point,” Sevier mused, “you’re broken and you stop fighting.”

In related news, a law professor weighed in with similar educated opinions on how terrible the conditions were.


As bad as the Obama Administration was in various things, when family separations happened under his watch it was typically done when authorities suspected that the parent was abusive or violent towards said children and a few other reasons. Now the cruelty is the point.

Generally, a child and an adult who arrive together at the border can be separated when border officials cannot establish the custodial relationship; when they believe the custodian may be a threat to the child; or when the custodian is being detained for prosecution.

[Tolvo]

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/historians-holocaust-museum-migrant-detention-concentration-camp_n_5d1a9cd7e4b07f6ca58253ad

150 Historians who specialize in studying the Holocaust and who are experts on it are calling for the Holocaust Museum to retract its condemnation of use of the term Concentration Camp. As the original article that caused the condemnation mentions and this one, as well as what the historians mention, Concentration Camp is a term that does not only apply to the Holocaust. For another notable example of the term there is the putting of Asian Americans in concentration camps during World War 2. Death Camp is typically more attributed to the Holocaust and is more so a form of concentration camp.

[Oniya]

*nods*  The term 'concentration camp' was more of a euphemism back in the '40s.  'Oh, we're just moving them all to one place.' sort of thing.  After the Allies captured them, and revealed the true nature of the camps, the term took on additional connotation - but it all started out with 'just putting them all in one place'.  The Japanese internment camps were called that because obviously we couldn't be doing the same things as the Nazis!  (heavy sarcasm and eye-rolling)

The term is still applicable to what's going on in Texas.  And with the conditions there, and the unwillingness of those in charge to do anything about it, the later term might eventually be as well.

[Tolvo]

Yeah, a thing for people to keep in mind is these things don't just suddenly happen typically. They're gradual. People didn't wake up one day in Germany and go "Wow over night the Nazis took away all the many liberties and put people in camps." It's typically a gradual process, it's about fighting it every step of the way. Perhaps these concentration camps will never become death camps, perhaps they want to just do certain crimes against humanity but won't go to the point of turning them into full scale death camps, even though children are dying in them already. But why even take that chance, especially when what is already going on is unacceptable? Is there a number value people are waiting for? When 1,000 children die in these camps will people suddenly go "Well alright I was fine with 999 children dying but 1,000 is just too many!"

[Tolvo]

https://theintercept.com/2019/07/12/border-patrol-chief-carla-provost-was-a-member-of-secret-facebook-group/

The Intercept has now reported that the Border Patrol Chief who condemned the violently racist Facebook group was actually a member of it. Though her post they found was simply her defending her promotion, it shows she was a part of the group.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/12/politics/ocasio-cortez-tlaib-pressley-border-camp-visit/index.html

Alexandria Ocsio-Cortez has given a testimony under oath about the conditions at the camps. She talked about her experiences talking to the people in there and attested to the horrible conditions and life threatening and inhumane treatment.

[Skynet]

Protesters shut down ICE's main headquarters in Washington DC by blocking off the site's exit and entry points.

New York Times releases an Op-Ed of children reading testimonies given by children held in detainment.

[Oniya]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/31/politics/ig-report-border-patrol-camp/index.html

I had to look back through the thread to see if this had been posted before.  This is dated May 31 of this year, and includes an actual OIG report of the conditions in the camp.  Particularly disturbing is the photo on page 6 of the report, which shows a dumpster, filled with personal belongings

[Tolvo]

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-immigration-ohare-children-detained-20190718-zmd3663ndngvlj7n2frh3mpjxm-story.html

Regarding tactics used by branches of the government related to immigration and deportation, three children were held by Customs and Border Protection officers after their guardian was determined inadmissible(They were returning from a trip, the guardian was determined inadmissible when they arrived. When one arrives they don't know whether that will happen). CBP then held the children for 13 hours while asking for parents to come and pick them up, the mother was called but she was undocumented and was applying for legal citizenship. She wanted to go but was fearful they'd grab her and deport her and feared for the safety of her children. Thanks to many Chicago activists, the Mexican Consulate, Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot, and a congresswoman, Representative Jan Schakowsky, that a deal was struck that allowed the mother to pick up her children without being arrested and deported. Some claim that it was her fault they were just doing their jobs, but note that CBP had to be fought by an entire city and powerful people in the government to allow the mother to come with protection from being deported. CBP held these children hostage.

[Crennos]

That was a very well thought out and sourced argument to make for the abolishment of ICE but I feel that it could have been bolstered by some other facts regarding ICE and the issue of Border Security in general.

The first point I would contend is that ICE is not the end all, be all for border security. Customs and Border Patrol as well as the Coast Guard are the one designated for handling Border Security. In fact, ICE did not even exist until 2003 when it was created under the Homeland Security Act and it was part of a slew of agencies and policies passed by Bush of which most have come under fire for being overtly unconstitutional and in violation of a myriad of laws such as the NSA, the Patriot Act, Guantanamo Bay, etc. So it's a very tall tale to suggest that ICE is not only entirely unnecessary as the agencies to do what ICE does already existed to begin with but, given this response in reaction to 9/11 and how the other responses paired with this wound up, it's fairly easy to come to the conclusion this was very clearly meant to be an agency without oversight specifically intended to work in opposition of existing laws and the Constitution itself.

Another point that could have been made is the fact that ICE is currently facing trials, which have been allowed to proceed following investigations and the presentations of evidence from the thousands of plaintiffs, for which they are accused of taking illegal immigrant detainees and making them into slaves. Now this isn't just a case of ICE being just evil for the sake of being evil. As you will find with most things in this country, whether it is the private prison industry or the private military defense contractors and so on, this was done with a profit incentive as these alleged slaves were being made to work for the benefit of various corporations seeking to exploit cheap labor. And this is by no means anything beyond the norm but in fact IS the norm with these companies as it is common knowledge even that a wide range of these corporations have manufacturing facilities outside of the United States and oftentimes these are little more than sweat shops and slave camps for these corporations exploiting the either lax or non-existent labor laws of these countries with even companies like Nestle profiting from child labor.

Unfortunately wherever there is some form of human rights abuses and imprisonment and whatever there may be, there's usually some large corporation or multi-billionaire CEO pushing to make a few extra bucks from it and it's not even concealed nowadays in all honestly. They're doing in plain sight with convicts in our prisons, children overseas and now with illegal immigrants being detained for extended periods of time. Whether it is getting federal contracts to make a profit from 'rehousing' these immigrants or their children or outright throwing a pick in their hands and making them work the mines, metaphorically speaking, there is a substantial profit incentive for not only keeping agencies like ICE in place and pressing harsher sentences against these immigrants and putting them in these prison camps longer but also to encourage further abuses and putting more bodies behind bars. And I personally that also leads into a conservative argument as well because these offenses and activities ultimately hurt working class Americans. Why would a corporation hire someone, even at the current federal minimum wage, when they can just go have an entire work force for a year for what they would pay that American in a month? And even further in doing so basically be exempt of any established labor laws so they can force whatever hours and even brutalize these slave workers by proxy of those of the federal government who are imprisoning these slaves.

So while I do agree with the points that were made in your original argument and the sentiment behind leading to the same policy position that I support, I feel that while these are important things to discuss I think the broader picture is what is going to ultimately wind up changing minds and flipping support to that position. These things happening are atrocious and should be unacceptable period but you have to attack it on multiple levels because some of these things may not register to people as they are perceived as being focused on emotion and 'humanity', which I don't understand why the latter seems to be viewed with connotation from some conservatives, but you've also got to make arguments of pragmatism and the greater good for the American people. Things like bringing up the fact that ICE is a completely useless agency that 'does' what three to four agencies already do equating to conservative concerns of frivolous spending on pointless programs and such. The fact that they are currently facing charges of slavery by the federal court system of which there is massively established for and thousands of witnesses and victims providing evidence for said claims appealing to the Law and Order values of conservatives. And then the American worker being completely abandoned and undercut because of these detention centers, and even expanding that on a broader scale to job outsourcing for child labor and forced prison labor hurting American, appealing to their shared desire with the opposite side to 'Make America Great Again'. Well we can't be great if none of us have jobs or money because the illegal immigrants taking the jobs aren't the ones that managed to slip past the border, they're the ones that got caught and thrown behind bars and we're even paying for them to have those 'jobs' since we are funding these detention centers. And they're not even getting paid enough they could ever, conceivably contribute to the economy. In order to change minds and sway public opinion you have to slam these issues from every conceivable angle with a bombardment of arguments so that those that support these have nowhere to go but to re-evaluate their position. They can't make the case for humanity because that's being grossly violated. And then even the Constitutional argument for the abolishment of slavery being upheld and enforced. They can't make the case for punishment because we're the ones punished with them and we are native born citizens. They can't make the case for saving jobs detaining them because it's leeching away from them and giving corporations free or nearly free labor that replaces American workers. When all your beliefs are challenged on a issue you have to re-evaluate your position unless you feel capable of defeating the arguments being made on said issues but while this scandal is still in its early stage I feel that there is more than enough credible information to make these arguments reliably.

P.S. I don't know how to post the sources for my own arguments here, I imagine it's a member rank related issue.

[Oniya]

Links cannot be posted until you have at least 10 posts on the forum.  It helps render drive-by bot-spam ineffective.

[Crennos]

Links cannot be posted until you have at least 10 posts on the forum.  It helps render drive-by bot-spam ineffective.

Ah, fair enough.

[Tolvo]

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/active-duty-u-s-troops-are-now-just-feet-away-n1034416?cid=eml_nbn_20190725

US troops are now being used a manner that is dangerous close to acting as police and guards to migrant people who have been captured and detained by the USA. US Troops acting as police within the USA is against federal law.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/immigration/2019/07/24/no-shower-23-days-us-citizen-held-deportation-shares-like-immigrant

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/25/us/us-citizen-detained-texas/index.html

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/18-year-old-u-s-citizen-detained-by-border-officials-said-conditions-were-so-bad-he-lost-26-pounds-almost-self-deported/

A US citizen who was held by ICE for 3 weeks since they did not believe his birth certificate, State ID, and social security number were real, has talked about his time within ICE custody. He lost 26 pounds, wasn't allowed to shower, they were sick and bug infested, and described various horrors. He had been in ICE and CBP custody since June 27th. Many others are currently living in these conditions which are clearly inhumane and should be recognized as crimes against humanity.

https://fox17.com/news/local/immigrant-rights-group-demands-answers-from-city-following-new-ice-detention-attempt-video

An incident of ICE agents threatening in audio in footage to come for a man's family if he did not come with them when they did not have an appropriate warrant, while also threatening that the police would come for him.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2019/07/24/kansas-city-ice-arrest-father-facebook-livestream-orig-mss.cnn

An undocumented immigrant refused to leave his car to be arrested by ICE without seeing a warrant. His girlfriend livestreamed the exchange and rather than show an appropriate warrant, ICE broke the car window and pulled him out and arrested him. They called police to help but it was an ICE agent who actually broke the window on the livestream. Keep in mind two children were in the car when the ICE agent smashed the window.

[Tolvo]

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/07/cbp-chief-brian-hastings-family-separation-judiciary-hearing-not-mueller.html

On Thursday there were hearings to investigate the actions of ICE and CBP from the House Judiciary Committee. It was absolutely horrifying, the unwillingness to take any responsibility while standing by inhumane tactics are horrifying. They are so detached from it all, and speak about the families and children as less than animals. These are leaders of Border Patrol testifying and defending the indefensible without any sense of shame or self reflection. I know people hate the accurate comparisons, but if you've ever studied the questioning and studies of Nazis after World War 2 and their testimonies to what they did, these sound very similar. I would recommend listening to these and watching. The questions being asked are very clear and direct with specific examples cited and those of Border Patrol simply cannot answer any question straight and actually contradict previous testimonies they've given before congress.

First Video

https://youtu.be/H5DCuTX34CY

Third Video

I made two of the videos into links because the thumbnails were of the gallery and I cannot confirm the ages of everyone seated in the gallery.

[Skynet]

@Crennos: I realize I haven't posted in this thread for a while, and that this is a bit of a delayed response.

Regarding talking points I did not touch upon like CBP's culpability, I and other posters did do that in some responses later, like with the private Facebook group full of racist and sexist posts. Or the business associations with ICE I touched upon near the bottom of the first page. My original post was over 2,000 words and had 30 sources and felt was at a point that it could be concise as possible at its length.

Well we can't be great if none of us have jobs or money because the illegal immigrants taking the jobs aren't the ones that managed to slip past the border, they're the ones that got caught and thrown behind bars and we're even paying for them to have those 'jobs' since we are funding these detention centers. And they're not even getting paid enough they could ever, conceivably contribute to the economy. In order to change minds and sway public opinion you have to slam these issues from every conceivable angle with a bombardment of arguments so that those that support these have nowhere to go but to re-evaluate their position. They can't make the case for humanity because that's being grossly violated.

I'm not fond of gish galloping, even if factual, and runs the risk of going off-topic. We could talk about how a capitalist economic system encourages the pursuit of greed and wealth at the expense of everything else, but that is a greater discussion for its own thread. The focus of this thread was in how the current US government, through ICE specifically, is harmful to immigrants predominantly of color.

[Skynet]

A compilation of recent and not-so-recent news:

About a week ago an ICE employee by the name of Captain Thomas Woodworth drove a truck into a crowd of Jewish protesters outside a detention center. Several people were injured, but thankfully nobody was killed.

The driver has since resigned from his position.

The news is unclear if he's being charged with anything.

Back in August 7th, 680 undocumented immigrants  were arrested in a chicken processing plant during an ICE raid in Mississippi.  But surprising nobody no legal action has been taken against the employers who knowingly hired them (likely for below minimum wage work as the case usually is).

This Slate article goes into harrowing detail of how the families of said workers have been impacted, including children who returned home only to find their parents missing.

[Oniya]

DHS has blocked camp visits by the House Oversight Committee.

This comes after last week's visits revealed 'potentially serious ongoing problems'.

[Callie Del Noire]

DHS has blocked camp visits by the House Oversight Committee.

This comes after last week's visits revealed 'potentially serious ongoing problems'.

The more I hear about the detention centers the more depressed I get.

[Skynet]

DHS has blocked camp visits by the House Oversight Committee.

This comes after last week's visits revealed 'potentially serious ongoing problems'.

It's likely due to reasons such as this. A schizophrenic prisoner at a for-profit ICE prison committed suicide in his cell after being kept in solitary confinement for half a month (which the United Nations considers torture due to observable negative mental effects). What was even more harrowing was the fact that (near the end of the video) it reveals that the facility lacked basic medical equipment and an employee falsified the logs. Some other prisoners interviewed mentioned how the staff didn't care about obvious warning signs, like when he turned off the lights to his cell early.

I'll give obvious warnings considering that the video shows a post-suicide victim along with mental health issues.

[Skynet]

PS Apologies for forgetting, but there's also CW for discussion of sexual harassment as a subject on the part of the inmate.

[Tolvo]

https://www.latinorebels.com/2019/09/06/iceagentopensfire/

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/adolfoflores/ice-agents-shooting-immigrant-assault-tennessee

https://time.com/5669993/ice-agent-shot-truck-nashville/

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/05/us/ice-tennessee-shots-fired/index.html

An ICE agent fired in public at someone they were questioning with a gun. There is video footage but it is far away, we see the person who was shot by the ICE agent driving the vehicle away while being questioned by ICE who did not have a warrant and who demanded to see his ID. FBI are investigating the event and the ICE agent, the victim surrendered to the FBI but was not arrested or charged and was treated at a hospital. This is pretty terrifying and it is highlighting how even some other parts of the government seem kind of fed up with ICE.

[Skynet]

More people are listening. California, the US' most populous state, passed a bill which banned the for-profit motive for the prison-industrial complex. This would include ICE's largest camps in the state which are funded and operated by Geo Group, an international company which contracts with the federal government to run such facilities.

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/California-bill-bans-private-prisons-ICE-detention-14436403.php

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/sep/12/california-private-prison-ban-immigration-ice

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/mbm7a8/california-just-banned-private-prisons-including-ice-detention-facilities

[Skynet]

A week ago ICE created a "Letter to the American Public" in an attempt to clarify things. Several falsehoods were in said letter, including the claim that they do not need a warrant to make an arrest and that their detention centers are humane.

Correction: they do, especially in regards to entering private residences much like real police officers.

As this is not the first time ICE agents attempted to lie to civilians about the law, this should all be taken with a huge grain of salt. They've been known to pass off administrative warrants as such, when in fact a judicial warrant is what's needed.