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Author Topic: Trump + Putin Images Thread  (Read 653 times)

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Offline RedPhoenixTopic starter

Trump + Putin Images Thread
« on: July 25, 2018, 08:02:08 AM »
A nice little writeup on the rising prevalence of homophobia in anti-Trump protests.

You Can Mock Trump’s Relationship With Putin Without Resorting to Homophobia

"These signs and these “jokes” don’t hurt Trump and Putin. They do hurt people, especially young people, who are actually gay or queer. Because you cannot deride homosexuality without deriding gay people, even if the jokes are meant to be at the expense of someone’s ego. They still reinforce the idea that there is something funny about same-sex attraction.

That idea is especially pervasive when it comes to male same-sex relationships, perpetuating the idea that homosexuality undermines a person’s masculinity. Again, even if the point is ostensibly to mock men like Trump and Putin for having those views, the mockery still reinforces the bigotry. You cannot laugh at the idea of two specific men being gay without reinforcing the idea that there is something laughable about being gay itself.

As with the fat shaming that many Trump detractors have relied on, the homophobic protest signs are lazy forms of mockery at best and, at worst, cause real damage to innocent people whose identities are being used as the punchline to your joke."

And another:

An image of Putin and Trump kissing isn’t funny. It’s homophobic
"This ‘joke’ sends the message that being gay is something to be ashamed of, with horrible effects for actual queer people"

"As societies around the world roll back queer protections, it is more important than ever to ensure we don’t reinforce the view that homosexuality (or any part of the rainbow) is something shameful. Stop making it acceptable to laugh at queer people, no matter who they are.

Trump and Putin aren’t damaged by this mockery, but real queer people are. The young queer person sitting at home watching the news, wondering how they are going to tell their religious parents that they are “that way”. The homeless LGBTQ person walking down a street in New York seeing a depiction of Putin or Trump as gay and hating themselves a little more because of it. That’s who you’re hurting, not two world leaders who don’t care what you put on your posters.

Stonewall reports that the percentage of LGBT people experiencing hate crimes because of their sexual orientation rose from 9% in 2013 to 16% in 2017. It believes four out of five attacks go unreported. It’s not just direct abuse that affects the lives of queer people. Casual homophobia in our society means one in 10 have been discriminated against when looking for somewhere to live, one in six when going out for meal or a drink, one in three when trying to worship and one in 10 at a sporting event.

Everywhere queer people go, they face the very real consequences of a society that treats being queer as the punchline to a joke. To you it’s funny. To us it’s our lives."

Offline Vekseid

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2018, 11:16:11 AM »
I like how the writer of the pieces RedPhoenix linked couldn't be arsed to look up what these picture are referencing. If one of the two was female, we would be seeing the same sorts of images, and hearing the same sorts of jokes.

But then it'd magically be sexist, rather than magically homophobic.

It is neither of these things.

The genders are irrelevant, the kiss remains all the same.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2018, 11:20:32 AM »
I like how the writer of the pieces RedPhoenix linked couldn't be arsed to look up what these picture are referencing. If one of the two was female, we would be seeing the same sorts of images, and hearing the same sorts of jokes.

But then it'd magically be sexist, rather than magically homophobic.

It is neither of these things.

The genders are irrelevant, the kiss remains all the same.

I don't think that makes RP's greater point wrong, though - less specifically on the kiss, and more on the casual homophobia inherent in 'Putin+Trump=Gay'.

Offline RedPhoenixTopic starter

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2018, 11:41:46 AM »
I like how the writer of the pieces RedPhoenix linked couldn't be arsed to look up what these picture are referencing. If one of the two was female, we would be seeing the same sorts of images, and hearing the same sorts of jokes.

But then it'd magically be sexist, rather than magically homophobic.

It is neither of these things.

The genders are irrelevant, the kiss remains all the same.

Uh huh. And confederate flags are about state's rights. Lame excuses to justify hatred ring hollow no matter who makes them. You don't see any other references to obscure socialist customs from thirty years ago in these protest signs. But somehow, only the homophobic one.

Those images are implying that two men kissing is a bad thing. Period. You can't hand wave homophobia because you find it politically convenient. You also can't dismiss the very real and harmful effects this imagery has with some "Well actually" nonsense out of the cold war.

Even if you do buy this lame excuse (and I really doubt anyone does) - it falls apart by asking the simple question what means more - scoring political points with a reference to old socialism or not causing social harm to the LGBT community? If you value dinging Trump and don't care who you trample on the way, you're making the exact point the authors of the articles are making.

Also, sexism and homophobia do not appear by magic. They are real things. Implying otherwise is pretty telling. There's nothing subtle or magical about the message being sent by "two men kissing is bad." You have people in this very thread talking about Trump sucking Putin's cock. Strangely no one is referencing obscure socialist customs. Because that's not what those images mean. That's the effect these images have. It emboldens hate speech and otherizes queer folks. Don't try to justify it.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2018, 01:31:52 PM »
I don't think that makes RP's greater point wrong, though - less specifically on the kiss, and more on the casual homophobia inherent in 'Putin+Trump=Gay'.

If what you think of when you see an image of Putin and Trump kissing is 'gay=bad', then I don't think the problem is on the end of the person presenting that image.

By all means, if someone presents it that way or tries to warp it that way, call it out. Personally I feel pretending this is homophobic is the homophobic stance. Putin and Trump have a relationship that is at best troubling to any patriotic American. How would you depict this in an instant, if not via a means susceptible to this sort of outrage culture?

Uh huh. And confederate flags are about state's rights.

The state's right to define the status of black people as being subservient. Not the other way around, of course. Couldn't lose Tennessee.

But that's off topic and completely irrelevant.

Lame excuses to justify hatred ring hollow no matter who makes them. You don't see any other references to obscure socialist customs from thirty years ago in these protest signs.

The author of your article has disavowed the specific image that got chosen for it, at least. So there is that.

Your definition of obscure is rather curious, we've seen quite a lot of references. I know I've seen plenty of equally obscure ones. I don't particularly care, because

Quote
But somehow, only the homophobic one.

Those images are implying that two men kissing is a bad thing. Period. You can't hand wave homophobia because you find it politically convenient. You also can't dismiss the very real and harmful effects this imagery has with some "Well actually" nonsense out of the cold war.

We're experiencing the real and harmful effects outrage culture like these articles have on the world right now.

Call everything fascist, fascism becomes okay.

Call everything racist, racism becomes okay.

Call everything sexist, sexism becomes okay.



If there is no line to be drawn, then there will be no shame in crossing it.

These articles don't convince people a given act is homophobic. They give refuge. "See!? The left are the real homophobes! We just want what is best for them with these camps."

Offline RedPhoenixTopic starter

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2018, 03:27:31 PM »
That's a last resort argument and an equally lame one to pretending gender and sexuality have nothing to do with it.

You act like there's no other way to symbolize a close relationship? How about handing each other money (which would actually demonstrate corruption rather than just political closeness which is something they've never denied)? Shaking hands? This isn't difficult - and many protests manage it just fine. Again the point is very simple - you can do it without being homophobic. Why is that such a problem for you to agree with?

You haven't addressed at all the language that comes with this imagery - it's all homophobia - Trump is sucking Putin's cock, Trump bend over for Putin, etc. etc. Just go on any social media or hell read this thread and you'll see it. This is enabled by the acceptance of that imagery. You haven't even bothered trying to deny that, but you can't just ignore that point and hope it goes away.

You're probably ignoring that though because it completely undermines your attempt to blame this on "outrage culture."  Which is once again you minimizing, denying, and talking around the real harm that this blatant homophobia causes because you find it politically inconvenient to acknowledge the truth of. This is not "outrage culture" this is about a group of people that are consistently attacked not just outraged online, actually attacked physically - much moreso since 2016 than in years before -  and demeaned for their existence.

But to you, first homophobia came out of nowhere magically, now it's just outrage culture. You're trying to sweep bigotry and its damaging effects on the world we live in under the rug here. And I think that's pretty transparent to anyone reading this.

I'm not going to bother with the old 4chan meme about "the people who point out bigotry are the real bigots." That's just sad you would try to say that.

The only point made was "you can criticize Trump without being homophobic."

You instantly rallied against that.

Hopefully people see what a huge problem it is thanks to your responses here. In a weird way that someone is willing to fight me so hard on this probably makes the point better than any number of articles or hate crime stats ever could.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2018, 05:19:17 PM »
That's a last resort argument and an equally lame one to pretending gender and sexuality have nothing to do with it.

This is raw projection. You have no argument against mine. You claim that descriptions of two people, once they suggest romanticism or sexual innuendo, must either be sexist and/or homophobic.

That is blatantly false on its face.

It is concern trolling.

It gets mocked and rightly so.

Quote
You act like there's no other way to symbolize a close relationship? How about handing each other money (which would actually demonstrate corruption rather than just political closeness which is something they've never denied)?

White House deletes Putin's support for Trump from official video, transcript.

Handing money and handshakes are also professional transactions.

Quote
Shaking hands? This isn't difficult - and many protests manage it just fine. Again the point is very simple - you can do it without being homophobic. Why is that such a problem for you to agree with?

I clearly agree that you can protest Trump without being homophobic.

I also state unequivocally that the Trump-Putin kissing images you've linked are not homophobic.

Quote
You haven't addressed at all the language that comes with this imagery - it's all homophobia - Trump is sucking Putin's cock, Trump bend over for Putin, etc. etc. Just go on any social media or hell read this thread and you'll see it.

What is homophobic about these statements? Because they both happen to be male?

Maybe there is an issue with these being seen as servile acts. That might be a worthy cause to fight, but it is more ancient and pervasive than Christendom.

These acts weren't equated with homosexuality then. Most people using it aren't doing so now. Certainly not regarding Trump, a man who we now have tape recordings of committing a felony in order to cover up his impropriety with a woman not his wife. To the surprise of no one.

Quote
This is enabled by the acceptance of that imagery. You haven't even bothered trying to deny that, but you can't just ignore that point and hope it goes away.

You're probably ignoring that though because it completely undermines your attempt to blame this on "outrage culture."  Which is once again you minimizing, denying, and talking around the real harm that this blatant homophobia causes because you find it politically inconvenient to acknowledge the truth of. This is not "outrage culture"

Yes it is.

You are perpetuating myths, equating this imagery and this language with homosexuality. And linking it from there to homophobia.

You help no one by promoting these equations.

Quote
this is about a group of people that are consistently attacked not just outraged online, actually attacked physically - much moreso since 2016 than in years before -  and demeaned for their existence.

But to you, first homophobia came out of nowhere magically, now it's just outrage culture. You're trying to sweep bigotry and its damaging effects on the world we live in under the rug here. And I think that's pretty transparent to anyone reading this.

You are twisting my words.

I am saying that referring to these images and phrases as homophobic comes out of nowhere. Well we know where this argument began, out of /pol/, /r/the_donald, and Twitter bots when Colbert made his "Putin's personal cockholster" comment. But still.

Quote
I'm not going to bother with the old 4chan meme about "the people who point out bigotry are the real bigots." That's just sad you would try to say that.

Which isn't what I said.

If you are bothered by the image of two men kissing, because of their gender, that homophobia is yours. Their gender isn't relevant to the image at all. Their gender isn't relevant to the language used to demean Trump in his relationship with Putin at all.

One of them could be a robot, and people would use the same language, show the same imagery.

Quote
The only point made was "you can criticize Trump without being homophobic."

Which would be a fine point if you had some examples of homophobia. Instead you equate certain acts with homosexuality and from there it must be homophobia.

This is a fallacy, it does not follow.

Quote
You instantly rallied against that.

Again, I rallied against calling these things homophobic. Which ought to be pretty clear in my previous post. But if anyone has any doubts.

Quote
Hopefully people see what a huge problem it is thanks to your responses here. In a weird way that someone is willing to fight me so hard on this probably makes the point better than any number of articles or hate crime stats ever could.

We have several dozen lurkers who don't even bother signing up, they just read. So hey, you do have an audience.

Offline Lyron

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2018, 05:39:08 PM »
Honestly? Maybe this is naivete on my part, and because I'm well past the point of being a teen, but I interpret the Trump and Putin kissing images in the same way I would if Trump or Putin were a woman: our president being "in bed" with our enemy. I don't think either original point, about it being homophobic or about it being a nod to a socialist custom, are wrong. Art, however loosely you want to apply that term, is going to be interpreted in different ways. Not to say that there aren't better forms of rhetoric, of course.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2018, 06:17:46 PM »
Honestly? Maybe this is naivete on my part, and because I'm well past the point of being a teen, but I interpret the Trump and Putin kissing images in the same way I would if Trump or Putin were a woman: our president being "in bed" with our enemy. I don't think either original point, about it being homophobic or about it being a nod to a socialist custom, are wrong. Art, however loosely you want to apply that term, is going to be interpreted in different ways. Not to say that there aren't better forms of rhetoric, of course.

It's also that in many of those spoof pictures - especially the photoshopped ones - Trump is clearly placed in the role of the woman: he is wearing a long skirt and long hair, he's giving an aroused/admiring smile and letting himself be held or lifted up by the stronger man, he is waiting for his turn to speak after Putin or some other man, and so on.

Offline Lyron

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2018, 06:34:19 PM »
It's also that in many of those spoof pictures - especially the photoshopped ones - Trump is clearly placed in the role of the woman: he is wearing a long skirt and long hair, he's giving an aroused/admiring smile and letting himself be held or lifted up by the stronger man, he is waiting for his turn to speak after Putin or some other man, and so on.

Sorry, I was primarily commenting on the images in the links that RedPhoenix posted. :-) Yes, the images in which Trump is depicted as a woman are more harmful in their rhetoric.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2018, 06:44:51 PM »
Sorry, I was primarily commenting on the images in the links that RedPhoenix posted. :-) Yes, the images in which Trump is depicted as a woman are more harmful in their rhetoric.

I'll admit that I couldn't help an irreverent giggle at some of those - especially the one where Trump, shown as an aged and lovestruck woman in a blue shift, is lifted up and embraced by a clearly much stronger and younger Kim Jong-un, and giving him a big enamoured smile. :)

Sometimes satire does make use of the dodgy and shameless, or of our "guilty pleasures"...

Offline Vekseid

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2018, 07:04:47 PM »
It's also that in many of those spoof pictures - especially the photoshopped ones - Trump is clearly placed in the role of the woman: he is wearing a long skirt and long hair, he's giving an aroused/admiring smile and letting himself be held or lifted up by the stronger man, he is waiting for his turn to speak after Putin or some other man, and so on.

These are more in line with the language Red was complaining about, rather than the images linked. That a certain sort of role is inherently subservient and lesser. Especially receiving anal sex.

The thing is, this viewpoint dates back before Alexander the Great and possibly earlier. It is old in the same way we use the shape of an extinct plant's seed as a symbol for love is old. Engaging in these acts were not inherently viewed as being homosexual, but if you were the 'receiver' or the one who knelt, it was seen as accepting the inferior role.



In news, more Orwellian phrases from Trump. "What you're seeing and reading isn't what's happening." In which he politicizes more events that were not previously political.


Offline RedPhoenixTopic starter

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2018, 07:17:50 PM »
Okay, you're hung up on one image. It's not just one image, even though I don't buy for a minute any of the excuses for that image either. Here's a bunch of stuff that will take you to all the homophobic media you'd ever not want.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-putin-new-york-times_us_5b4cc235e4b0e7c958fde970 <- "Joking that Trump and Putin Are Gay is Homophobia" The Huffington Post, one of the most maligned publications by alt right trolls in existence.

"We saw it in “protest art” in the months after the election. The internet enjoyed a period of Photoshopping suggestive photos of the pair together. Late-night hosts found themselves in hot water for jokes of their own about a Trump/Putin romance. Many writers explained then just how corrosive the conceit was."

That article lists tons of examples - pictures of Putin fondling a pregnant Trump, for instance. They are repulsive I'm not going to go down the list. It's a pervasive problem that is consistently documented by the exact opposite of the alt-right sources your'e trying to blame it on.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/trump-putin-new-york-times-homophobia-relationship-a8451151.html < - "Depicting Trump and Putin in a romantic relationship isn’t funny – it just makes you a homophobe" The independent. Another source that details many repulsive examples.

"The New York Times is the latest culprit, this week taking aim at Donald Trump and his Helsinki summit with Vladimir Putin by depicting the two heterosexual world leaders as gay lovers.

In the latest episode of the publication’s “Trump Bites” series, a feminised caricature of Trump eagerly prepares for a date with a hypermasculine, topless Putin. The pair embark on their date, hold hands, ride a flying unicorn in their underwear – because unicorns are gay, obviously – before Trump tweaks Putin’s nipples while they engage in a deep and passionate kiss."

Go on explain how that's not homophobic.

https://www.elle.com/culture/career-politics/a22163743/homophobia-trump-putin/ <- "Gay Jokes About Trump and Putin Aren't Funny. They're Hate." Elle. Elle is a woman's magazine that's been around for decades for those who don't know. It's again the complete opposite of an internet troll den.

"To attempt to mock Trump for having feelings of attraction for Putin is to attempt to incite a gay panic in the two men and in their followers and acolytes. It is willfully violent, not to mention careless, lazy, reductive, and, frankly, boring. It makes Putin and Trump's jobs easier by reinforcing a world that is hostile to LGBTQ people to the point of death. If that's the objective of these so-called jokes, fine. Just don't call it comedy; call it what it is: hate."


Well put - inciting a gay panic is the goal here. Blatant homophobia. No amount of excuses or denial will change that.

This is a point echoed and agreed with by socially responsible left wing organizations. "Call those who voice concern the real bigots" is the alt-right response, and it has been since before they were called the alt-right.

It's also that in many of those spoof pictures - especially the photoshopped ones - Trump is clearly placed in the role of the woman: he is wearing a long skirt and long hair, he's giving an aroused/admiring smile and letting himself be held or lifted up by the stronger man, he is waiting for his turn to speak after Putin or some other man, and so on.

Yes, equating being gay with being weak with being feminine is a whole host of issues in and of itself, some of which overlap what I'm discussing. None of it is funny and the only thing it accomplishes is alienating, otherizing, and enabling the rising levels of hate crimes against LGBT folks.

It's not a joke to those of us who have to live with the consequences of it.

Honestly? Maybe this is naivete on my part, and because I'm well past the point of being a teen, but I interpret the Trump and Putin kissing images in the same way I would if Trump or Putin were a woman: our president being "in bed" with our enemy. I don't think either original point, about it being homophobic or about it being a nod to a socialist custom, are wrong. Art, however loosely you want to apply that term, is going to be interpreted in different ways. Not to say that there aren't better forms of rhetoric, of course.

When you're making art with the specific intent of arousing political flames you not only obviously have thought about the social ramifications of what you've done, you completely support it. Yes, these people completely have the right to make whatever art they want. And when they make homophobic art I have the right to call it that and point out the harm that acceptance of this art within a supposedly progressive and open minded political movement does.

Read the articles I linked above, see how this is a pervasive trend in the form of protest. It's not just one picture here or there. It's a consistent that needs to be addressed and corrected not have its existence denied.

Again, when I pointed this out in the first place the response to "You can criticize Trump without being homophobic" could have been "Yes, you're right." Or no response at all if anyone thought the point was so obvious it didn't merit a discussion. Instead, well, you see what happened.


The thing is, this viewpoint dates back before Alexander the Great and possibly earlier.

As does sexism, racism, rape culture, violence, religious persecution, and almost everything else inherently wrong with humanity. "That's the way it's always been" isn't an excuse.

Moving past all of that is where we got the progress in progressive from.

Accepting it is the complete opposite.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2018, 07:45:27 PM »
Okay, my two cents on this - and I am not saying this to defend any one particular picture, since we've clearly all seen different arrays of pics:

-These pictures are not meant to be taken literally, not even by a long shot. No one seriously thinks Putin or Trump would be closet gay. The spoof gay sex or romantic straight sex/dating imagery is mostly a way of sending up the ultra-macho public images of these two men, and of indicating issues of dependence, weakness, giving in and so on without having to bring in lots of text.

-Humour does make heavy use of stereotypes. If you outlaw the use of stereotypes and spoofs of well-known attitudes, even outdated attitudes, you'll largely kill off humour. Also, most innovative humour wants to have an element of surprise or it will just begin to feel dull.

-Satire has to have the right to sometimes use unpleasant, controversial, weird and goofy images and subtexts. Trying to weed out every picture element that might be provocative or in bad taste for some people - even for most people, if it stood on its own - is a surefire way to strangle the range of satire. Is that really what we want?


Offline RedPhoenixTopic starter

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2018, 08:06:49 PM »
Okay, my two cents on this - and I am not saying this to defend any one particular picture, since we've clearly all seen different arrays of pics:

-These pictures are not meant to be taken literally, not even by a long shot. No one seriously thinks Putin or Trump would be closet gay. The spoof gay sex or romantic straight sex/dating imagery is mostly a way of sending up the ultra-macho public images of these two men, and of indicating issues of dependence, weakness, giving in and so on without having to bring in lots of text.

That's exactly the point and why it's a problem. They are using the suggestion of homosexuality as an insult. That "gay" equates to "weakness, dependence" etc is the problem.

I'm not sure why you think that saying it's intended as an insult is supposed to make things better here. It doesn't. At all.

Quote
-Humour does make heavy use of stereotypes. If you outlaw the use of stereotypes and spoofs of well-known attitudes, even outdated attitudes, you'll largely kill off humour. Also, most innovative humour wants to have an element of surprise or it will just begin to feel dull.

But the treatment of LGBT people in this country and especially in Russia isn't funny. You can't even find reliable statistics for hate crimes in Russia. Look at what is happening Chechnya. So why make a joke out of it unless you are willing to consciously disregard what making a joke out of it means, and what it enables? These aren't posters that show the results of such treatment - the sobering images of children locked in cages for example. Nobody made a joke out of that (well, no liberals anyway). Why are gay rights treated like such a joke?

It's not so funny when you're the joke. The joke here isn't Trump, it isn't Putin, it's being gay.

Nobody even breathed a word about outlawing anything. I want people to choose to have a modicum of socially responsibility. Apparently that's asking too much.

Quote
-Satire has to have the right to sometimes use unpleasant, controversial, weird and goofy images and subtexts. Trying to weed out every picture element that might be provocative or in bad taste for some people - even for most people, if it stood on its own - is a surefire way to strangle the range of satire. Is that really what we want?

This isn't Satire. Satire is witty. Satire is the covers of the Economist that show Trump using a Klan hood as a megaphone.

This isn't "Bad Taste." Bad taste is the posters that show Trump farting out his tweets.

This is hostile, otherizing, alienating, enabling and symptomatic of a rise of hate crimes. It serves no purpose at all, the message that Trump and Putin are cronies  can be sent much more effectively in other ways, and the message is not at all diluted by removing the homophobia.

What part of an anti-Trump statement requires homophobia? What possible message do you need to send to him that requires that you can't do much better some other way?

Offline RedPhoenixTopic starter

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2018, 08:12:06 PM »
And to further, there's nothing surprising or innovative about using gay as a slur. As Vekseid pointed out, that's literally bronze age material.

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Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2018, 08:58:43 PM »
Sorry RedPhoenix, you're reading these cartoons (the ones you've seen) in a much too literal way. To most people, by far the most people, the point about those pics isn't about humiliating gay men or trying to celebrate outdated gender roles (women should be meek housewives and softly submissive etc), and it's not about really suspecting Trump and Putin of being in bed with each other either. The joke is about Trump and Putin as politicians and crowdpleasers, I'm 100% sure that's what most people take away from this sort of pictures and that's why they are getting widely circulated, too.

You're trying to cannonade this field of pictures with a claim that they're in such offensive bad taste that they shouldn't be tolerated, at least not in any group where people want to be seen as intelligent, cool and socially responsible (yes, you can effectively censor stuff, discourage it and shout it down even without getting it forbidden by a legal injunction)

Quote from: RedPhoenix
It's not so funny when you're the joke. The joke here isn't Trump, it isn't Putin, it's being gay.

Nobody even breathed a word about outlawing anything. I want people to choose to have a modicum of socially responsibility. Apparently that's asking too much.

And moreover, everyone who is with "the lefties" against Trump, and who doesn't call out the use of these images seems to get rolled into the same blanket (your earlier posts). If they don't protest against these caricatures then they're stained by the same anti-LGBT stance. Really?  ::)

Okay, I'll offer an example to support my claim that satire or political spoofing doesn't have to look like a selection of the very finest and most prestigious caricatures, stuff out of the Economist, the New Yorker or the Guardian. It's a much wider field than that, and it has to be. Have a look at this one. Yeah, you've all seen a few of these "Hitler rants at..." videos, but this one's different. First because the joke isn't so much about the ranting itself, but rather the story being told (and with a very good script) and then because of the way Hitler comes face to face with Donald Trump at an iconic moment. :)  I'm not sure the video is trying to say anything very precise about Trump, but it does use Hitler and Trump as mirror images in a way: both of them trying to stage-manage their political scenes (notice the point when Trump tells Hitler, "You're fake news").

Is this clip trying to say that the media questioning Trump are like Nazis? No, of course not.

Is it offensive because it picks up a scene from the end of WW2 and uses it to frame a joke on Donald Trump? No, I don't think it is; like it or not, Hitler is one of the most stereotyped characters of the modern world. Everyone recognizes him.

Is it anti-German? No, not so much. :) It is what it is.






Offline Oniya

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2018, 09:03:14 PM »
The thing is, it's perfectly possible to convey the inappropriate subservience that Trump is showing towards [insert dictator here] without any sexually charged imagery at all.  I can't draw worth a damn, so picture this:

Trump dressed in full colonial man-servant garb, including the wig, carrying a silver platter on which is a box labelled 'U.S. Elections'.  Putin, dressed as a man of stature, looking gravely down at the tray and saying 'Very good, Donny.  Send Assange in on your way out.'

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2018, 09:26:55 PM »
The thing is, it's perfectly possible to convey the inappropriate subservience that Trump is showing towards [insert dictator here] without any sexually charged imagery at all.  I can't draw worth a damn, so picture this:

Trump dressed in full colonial man-servant garb, including the wig, carrying a silver platter on which is a box labelled 'U.S. Elections'.  Putin, dressed as a man of stature, looking gravely down at the tray and saying 'Very good, Donny.  Send Assange in on your way out.'

Many colonial man-servants were coloured, and today that's part of the cliché. Suppose Trump in that picture had a tone of yellow or brown in his face: wouldn't it get some angry complaints: "Hey, this is blackfacing!!"

Routine blackfacing in the theatre is one thing, and today it's become rare, but if even a drawn caricature sketch involving a politician can't use some "race marker" if the cartoonist wants to - use it to bring out what the figure is meant to show, and the function of that character, without being called borderline racist, then I think it is getting a bit eggshelly.

Also, I'm excusing myself from further debate with RedPhoenix in this thread, since they seem to be just too emotionally caught up on the idea that this sort of Trump/Putin imagery is in itself a slap in the face of LGBT people. It's completely plain to me that we're talking past each other here.

Offline Oniya

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2018, 09:47:11 PM »
Many colonial man-servants were coloured, and today that's part of the cliché. Suppose Trump in that picture had a tone of yellow or brown in his face: wouldn't it get some angry complaints: "Hey, this is blackfacing!!"

Hardly a requirement, though.  Done in a simple 'op-ed' black and white line-cartoon, there would be no doubt as to Trump's ethnicity.

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Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2018, 09:57:43 PM »
Hardly a requirement, though.  Done in a simple 'op-ed' black and white line-cartoon, there would be no doubt as to Trump's ethnicity.

I know, but my wider point is that we really don't want it to become the norm that everyone who appears in a cartoon (or an adventure comic-book or an advert or...) must be shown either just as they were in real life or in a thin, simplified and nondescript fashion, so that there's nothing left that might cause offence to anybody. And neither must they say anything, or make any gestures that could seem disturbing to anybody. At least I don't think that's where the future of humour and picture stories is, don't know about you...  :-X

Some people are able to be offended by just about anything. "You're laughing at the wrong stuff, I'm so offended, stop laughing immediately!" No, no, no.

Offline RedPhoenixTopic starter

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2018, 10:01:51 PM »
Sorry RedPhoenix, you're reading these cartoons (the ones you've seen) in a much too literal way. To most people, by far the most people, the point about those pics isn't about humiliating gay men or trying to celebrate outdated gender roles (women should be meek housewives and softly submissive etc), and it's not about really suspecting Trump and Putin of being in bed with each other either. The joke is about Trump and Putin as politicians and crowdpleasers, I'm 100% sure that's what most people take away from this sort of pictures and that's why they are getting widely circulated, too.

"The Majority agrees with me" is probably the least persuasive thing you could possibly say. "Look everyone's laughing" is not an argument you want to be in the company of.

In your previous posts you've admitted that the point of them is to humiliate for someone for being gay, weak, and feminine interchangeably. You've already conceded the point here.

You think that's okay, I don't. I've got better reasons besides "they're funny and I don't like Trump." You haven't responded to them.

Read the links I've posted. Many people have pointed out that these are harmful to them. The hate crime stats show how that harm manifests. Don't dismiss them just because you don't feel it yourself, or even if the majority doesn't feel it.

The thing is, it's perfectly possible to convey the inappropriate subservience that Trump is showing towards [insert dictator here] without any sexually charged imagery at all.  I can't draw worth a damn, so picture this:

Trump dressed in full colonial man-servant garb, including the wig, carrying a silver platter on which is a box labelled 'U.S. Elections'.  Putin, dressed as a man of stature, looking gravely down at the tray and saying 'Very good, Donny.  Send Assange in on your way out.'

See how easy it is. It's so easy not to be homophobic. It requires so very little effort. It's certainly a lot easier than picking a fight over it.

So why is there so much resistance to it?

(That's a rhetorical question in case it wasn't obvious).

Many colonial man-servants were coloured, and today that's part of the cliché. Suppose Trump in that picture had a tone of yellow or brown in his face: wouldn't it get some angry complaints: "Hey, this is blackfacing!!"

Routine blackfacing in the theatre is one thing, and today it's become rare, but if even a drawn caricature sketch involving a politician can't use some "race marker" if the cartoonist wants to - use it to bring out what the figure is meant to show, and the function of that character, without being called borderline racist, then I think it is getting a bit eggshelly.

Also, I'm excusing myself from further debate with RedPhoenix in this thread, since they seem to be just too emotionally caught up on the idea that this sort of Trump/Putin imagery is in itself a slap in the face of LGBT people. It's completely plain to me that we're talking past each other here.

I thought fleeing the argument before hearing a response and with a parting insult was frowned on in this forum.

Blaming my emotions (which are entirely in your head) for your lack of empathy, insight, and unwillingness to read any of the links I've posted is just petty. That you'd rather do this than re-consider your views or extend any sympathy for fellow human beings shows how deep-seeded your beliefs are and proves as a demonstration of what we're struggling with when we try to point out the problems of a people that get so consistently marginalized they're the butt of a joke from the ideology that is supposed to be on their side.

When you've run out of arguments you should start considering that you're wrong, not flee the conversation.

I know, but my wider point is that we really don't want it to become the norm that everyone who appears in a cartoon (or an adventure comic-book or an advert or...) must be shown either just as they were in real life or in a thin, simplified and nondescript fashion, so that there's nothing left that might cause offence to anybody. And neither must they say anything, or make any gestures that could seem disturbing to anybody. At least I don't think that's where the future of humour and picture stories is, don't know about you...  :-X

Some people are able to be offended by just about anything. "You're laughing at the wrong stuff, I'm so offended, stop laughing immediately!" No, no, no.

Lame strawman. Nobody has said anything of the sort is required. It's already been pointed out that it can be done in many ways that are humorous but not homophobic. You can't keep falling back on this.

But you keep arguing the point, despite saying you won't argue the point. Which again I thought was frowned on here.

Offline Iniquitous

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Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2018, 10:15:47 PM »
Just my two cents....

I do not think gay=bad when I see those kinds of pictures.  I think Trump is in love with/admires Putin/Kim Jung Un.  I have never looked at those kinds of pictures and thought homosexuality.

I may be in the minority in viewing those kinds of images that way. *shrugs*

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2018, 10:18:58 PM »
When you've run out of arguments you should start considering that you're wrong, not flee the conversation.

Lame strawman. Nobody has said anything of the sort is required. It's already been pointed out that it can be done in many ways that are humorous but not homophobic. You can't keep falling back on this.

But you keep arguing the point, despite saying you won't argue the point. Which again I thought was frowned on here.

I preferred not to repeat the arguments Vekseid had brought against you (and that also panned the articles you were linking to). I would agree with most of what he said and felt it had been established in the thread.

No, there's no rule on this forum that one has to keep debating with someone who is heaping up "if you're not with me then you're accepting slurs on all LGBT people" and that sort of emotional overkill. I made my points but you're basically not listening to anyone who doesn't buy into your peculiar view of this whole range of cartoons and drawings.

I continued replying to Oniya, not to you. That's because I know her to be a calm and reasonable person; also, the points I've been discussing with her were not the same as the ones I argued with you. :)

Offline Oniya

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2018, 10:28:35 PM »
I'm also going to point out that depicting Trump as Trump and Putin as Putin in my example is going to show two white guys.  I could theoretically produce some really bad Photoshopping (I told you, I can't draw) using images taken from other political cartoons of these men, and you would still see two white guys.  Not 'one white guy being depicted in blackface'.

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Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2018, 10:55:48 PM »
I'm also going to point out that depicting Trump as Trump and Putin as Putin in my example is going to show two white guys.  I could theoretically produce some really bad Photoshopping (I told you, I can't draw) using images taken from other political cartoons of these men, and you would still see two white guys.  Not 'one white guy being depicted in blackface'.

Point taken, but I think we have to allow cartoonists the freedom to cast the politicians and celebs they're drawing in various roles (or combined with other characters, named or unnamed: priest, preacher, medieval knight, virgin in trouble, Roman emperor, Jesus, cowboys, hobos, etc), and those roles are not always going to be realistic or historically accurate.

 Imagine if someone drew Paris Hilton as Marie Antoinette, looking blasé and saying something about going to the Oscars, and next you're getting a storm of angry Frenchmen shouting that it's a slur on their queen and their history to compare her to a styleless US parvenue girl. :) Of course you wouldn't get quite that reaction because French people are cool with this kind of stuff, but the general idea is very similar to the thought that "you may only draw these people if the picture fits what they're like in real life and doesn't include anything that's culturally or politically sensitive to any group of people". And I think that's really a straitjacket on humour and satire.

Offline RedPhoenixTopic starter

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2018, 10:56:06 PM »
I preferred not to repeat the arguments Vekseid had brought against you (and that also panned the articles you were linking to). I would agree with most of what he said and felt it had been established in the thread.

No, there's no rule on this forum that one has to keep debating with someone who is heaping up "if you're not with me then you're accepting slurs on all LGBT people" and that sort of emotional overkill. I made my points but you're basically not listening to anyone who doesn't buy into your peculiar view of this whole range of cartoons and drawings.

I continued replying to Oniya, not to you. That's because I know her to be a calm and reasonable person; also, the points I've been discussing with her were not the same as the ones I argued with you. :)

Sorry, Vekseid hasn't responded to the last set of articles I linked so you can't just "me too" him there. That you don't know this makes it pretty clear you aren't actually reading the thread.

In fact the only thing Vekseid argued with me about was whether what I linked was homophobic or not. He made that clear in his last post, I guess you didn't read it. Everything else stemmed from that. He never made the argument you're making - which is that it's okay because it's funny, or that being responsible about it would lead to a complete shutdown of the arts (this is more hyperbolic and emotional than anything I've said, incidentally). In fact if you read his last response to you, he disagreed with you. This is not a star you can hitch your wagon to here.

Again you have conceded that these are slurs, in fact you've expanded on all the types of slurs they are from what I was initially saying. Nothing I'm saying to you is twisting your words at all. You just don't like that, so you're refusing to talk about it. Or even read what the discussion was, apparently.

Your final point that everyone agreed with you and people found it funny, quite frankly, is the excuse of the bully. "But everyone laughed." That doesn't make it funny. That doesn't make it right. That doesn't make it okay. If you'd read the articles linked you'd see a consistent, meaningful discussion about how the person being bullied here isn't Trump, it isn't Putin, it's the LGBT community. Your only response to this has been "but it's funny!" or "the cost of respect is too high" both of which fall flat.

All you've done is come up with strawmen - "it will kill art," this is hypebolic and already disproven - "I don't think it means what you do," I've shown you multiple links from different sources that say otherwise, there's at least enough of a consensus that you should address the point with something more than your personal opinion - "I think it's funny so it's okay", ultimately a matter of opinion but if that's where you want to rest your case I guess that's your hill to die on. Just remember that's the excuse for sexual harassment and every other type of phobia when they come up too. And now you've fallen back to the classic bit of "you're just being emotional."

Which I guess is sort of fitting because that's the classic answer back for anyone who gets told their offensive joke or "joking" harassing behavior isn't funny. "Oh lighten up" "Play along" "You're too uptight." No, I'm just aware of what's being conveyed here, and who bears the brunt of it, and what the cost of it is. And I don't care how many people are laughing, the rising tide of hate crimes against my demographic isn't funny.

If it's that you don't see the connection between dehumanizing belittling art in popular culture and targeting people for crimes, there are many, many articles you can read about this. Heck there's a stickied thread on a topic with a lot of crossover to it in this very forum.

Here's a starting point: https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/3/7/14456154/dehumanization-psychology-explained

It's about the dehumanization of Muslims, yes, the principle is the same. Nobody's studied where people would rank the "evolvedness" of LGBT folks but there's great reason to assume that the rise is violence against us corresponds with increased dehumanizing attacks.

Dehumaniziation is why people support the Muslim ban. It's why people support bathroom bills. It's why they opposed gay marriage.

It shouldn't be coming from people who call themselves progressive, liberal or anti-Trump.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2018, 12:12:21 AM »
And to further, there's nothing surprising or innovative about using gay as a slur. As Vekseid pointed out, that's literally bronze age material.

No, gay wasn't offensive then. Not many gave a fuck if you loved another man as a man. There was some comparatively mild snarking if you loved another woman as a woman (and avoided men). The insult, reflected still in most of these depictions, was to be the effeminate, weaker partner. Mainly receiving anal sex.

In no single article you linked is there anything that mocks Trump+Putin in a sexuality focus rather than a relationship focus. Only in the Elle article is there anything directly implicating gayness, which doesn't involve Trump+Putin at all but rather an image featuring Putin over a gay pride flag that Russia declared to be illegal. Omitting the reason for that picture to feature at protests is not quality journalism.

Yes, in some of these images and in many of these jokes, Trump is painted as the effeminate partner.

And sure, I can understand people taking offense at those. The mpreg pic, the one where he's getting a rimjob. Most of the language you referenced.

One thing I'm pretty certain of, most people aren't going to take equating this style of humor to homophobia very seriously. The absolute most change you can hope for in doing so, is again, to make homophobia more okay.

You want to start a personal crusade about the inherent demeaning status of effeminate acts and the various jokes behind them, go ahead. Make a thread. Write opinions. Whatever.

It's a lot clearer and you'd get more people agreeing with you.

Online Roleplay Frog

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2018, 01:57:19 AM »
Trump+Putin.

Trutin. Pump?

Pump. Let's face it, someone has writtten that fanfic. Multiple someones. If not, someone should. Bonus points if it plays in a gym.

Quote
there's great reason to assume that the rise is violence against us corresponds with increased dehumanizing attacks.

Anywhoo, bonus points for everyone that can prove a rise of violence against the LGBT crowd, which, while by no means in a perfect situation is having a better time now than ever, just like we live in the most peaceful time ever, if you look at historical tendencies.

Quote
It shouldn't be coming from people who call themselves progressive, liberal or anti-Trump.

All these are just group-identifying labels though, that change as the groups priority changes. Especially anti-Trump is a rather broad label as well, do remember, you can be anti-trump because he's too soft.
You can have cruel liberals, or progressives and Trumps polarization of people could advance that further.
What I'm saying is, I find it odd that on one hand you seem to recognize the danger of de-humanization, but seem to not mind another, arguably even greater risk factor in psychology, group-think.

Offline RedPhoenixTopic starter

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2018, 02:20:08 AM »
Anywhoo, bonus points for everyone that can prove a rise of violence against the LGBT crowd, which, while by no means in a perfect situation is having a better time now than ever, just like we live in the most peaceful time ever, if you look at historical tendencies.

I've already linked it. Here it is again.

https://www.them.us/story/anti-lgbtq-hate-crimes-are-on-the-rise with plenty of links to the studies that support it and all the legislation that's been introduced to reinforce it.

Anti-LGBT homicides in the USA averaged one a week in 2017, and these are just the ones with a provable hate motive related to LGBT status. That's nearly double the rate of 2016, and more than double the rate of any year back to when they first started recording this in 2012.

Last I checked more than double is an increase. Where are my bonus points?

Relevant quote: "It’s up to LGBTQ+ people and our allies to sound the alarm."

Offline RedPhoenixTopic starter

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2018, 02:28:20 AM »
And hey have another.

https://around.uoregon.edu/content/report-says-school-violence-against-lgbt-students-rise

“In 2017, bias-based bullying, violent harassment, sexual assault and fear-based absences were at alarming rates among our LGBT youth,” said Julie Heffernan, graduate director of teaching and licensure at UO’s College of Education and co-chair of the Oregon Safe Schools and Communities Coalition. “We’ve known these are issues for a long time, but this is the first time we’ve had Oregon data that highlights just how bad conditions can be in our schools.”
  • LGBT youth were twice as likely to experience bullying and harassment at school.
  • LGBT youth were twice as likely to have been threatened with a weapon.
  • LGBT youth were three times as likely to miss school because they were afraid for their safety.
  • One half of LGBT youth expressed suicide ideation during 2017.
  • One quarter of LGBT youth reported attempting suicide during 2017.

And this is in Oregon. The most liberal state this side of California.

Offline RedPhoenixTopic starter

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2018, 02:39:27 AM »
Domestic:

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/anti-lgbtq-homicides-nearly-doubled-2017-report-finds-n840011

http://www.newnownext.com/lgbt-gay-hate-crime-murder-homicide/04/2018/

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/09/us/transgender-women-killed.html

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/opinion-signorile-gay-bi-men-murders_us_5a730f74e4b06fa61b4df141

https://www.advocate.com/media/2018/3/01/major-networks-fail-coverage-anti-lgbt-hate-crimes

https://cw39.com/2018/01/26/hate-crimes-on-the-rise-nationally-and-often-go-unreported/

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/06/the-extraordinarily-common-violence-against-lgbt-people-in-america/486722/

https://splinternews.com/hate-violence-against-lgbt-people-is-on-the-rise-and-fe-1793857470


International:

https://argentinareports.com/violence-lgbt-500-rise/

https://www.wisconsingazette.com/news/anti-gay-violence-on-the-rise-in-ukraine/article_76f19d6d-98e4-560d-a1cc-5ad805ae3c8d.html

https://awiderbridge.org/we-dont-rent-to-gays-hate-crimes-against-the-lgbtq-community-in-israel-on-the-rise/

http://aldianews.com/articles/politics/anti-lgbt-acts-rise-chile/52055

https://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Costa-Rica-Elections-Prompt-Rise-in-Anti-LGBT-Violence-20180221-0027.html

https://www.garda.com/crisis24/news-alerts/91391/costa-rica-rise-in-violence-targeting-lgbt-community

http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-brazil-gay-youth-2018-story.html

https://www.hrw.org/report/2018/01/08/no-choice-deny-who-i-am/violence-and-discrimination-against-lgbt-people-ghana

https://www.dw.com/en/anti-gay-sentiment-on-the-rise-in-africa/a-19338620

https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/alexander-kondakov/putting-russia-s-homophobic-violence-on-map


Tell me more about how great we have it.

Online Roleplay Frog

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2018, 07:29:18 AM »
Quote
https://www.them.us/story/anti-lgbtq-hate-crimes-are-on-the-rise with plenty of links to the studies that support it and all the legislation that's been introduced to reinforce it.

Anti-LGBT homicides in the USA averaged one a week in 2017, and these are just the ones with a provable hate motive related to LGBT status. That's nearly double the rate of 2016, and more than double the rate of any year back to when they first started recording this in 2012.

Last I checked more than double is an increase. Where are my bonus points?

Are you sure you want to argue an increase in a single instance in a sample size of 6 years? I'll let you reconsider that if you want.
If you do not, well,.. what you linked me is not the source, let's go find the source. The NCAVP. That's not a scientific source. They do reports and have no reason to be unbiased. Let's take a brief look at their report anyway.
Alright, in that report they clarify that the LGBTQ related deaths were 77 in 2016 vs 52 in 2017, due to the Orlando Nightclub, going from 2016 to 2017. Single incident reports went up, but that doesn't make as good press.

So that's not an increase, my dear, that's a decrease from 2016. Does that mean Trumps policies hep LGBTQ people? I'll give you a headline here:
LGBTQ Homicides decrease by almost a third in the second year of the Trump administration!
Now does that sound right? It's factually right, just like the one homicide a week is factually right. But it's a clear case of correlation vs causation if I put it like that.
Or can we just cut out the Nightclub, because it's inconvenient, like the report did?
Of course not. It means none of these things. The sample size is far too small to make any judgement or point any fingers at this point in time.

Do note that I'm not arguing anything in favour of the Trump administration, certain polarizing policies might very well lead to an increase in LGBTQ Violence, but I caution you to both re-read my post and not fall for numbers without skeptic review.

Offline RedPhoenixTopic starter

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2018, 09:43:45 AM »
Okay, there's the attitude I've been fighting this whole time finally come to the surface - the attitude that anti-LGBT hate crimes aren't actually a problem. This is how it always works - once the crowd shows that voicing a bias is acceptable and encouraged (which this thread definitely has now) the more extreme forms of it start to emerge.

The study didn't count the Pulse shooting because it was tracking cases where the motive was purely anti-LGBT hate (what the FBI calls a "single bias incident"). The person who committed the Orlando shooting posted all over social media that it was an act of revenge for Syrian airstrikes. He also called 9-1-1 and told them that during the massacre. His coworkers also talked about how he hated blacks, latinos, and women - all of whom frequently attended the club as well. During his wife's trial it was revealed that he googled downtown clubs, traveled between different nightclubs and appeared to choose his target at the last minute, indicating that it wasn't a pre-planned attack on a gay club.

The idea that it was specifically an anti-LGBT killings were based on media theories that were mostly debunked. There was a claim that his father had once seen him get upset at two gay men kissing, but he was active on gay dating apps. There was a theory that it was revenge for being exposed to HIV, which even that the person who offered it said he was mad at Latinos about that, not LGBT folks, but in any case he was HIV negative.

A lunatic targeting a club that contains a lot of LGBT folks is not the same thing as a club being targeted because the people in it were LGBT.

If we count all the people that died that were LGBT, not those that died specifically because they were LGBT that doesn't show a hate based murder rate. And it would show much higher numbers in all of the years, not just the year of that tragedy.

But even if you don't like that one study, you could have looked for others yourself. You could have read any of the other links. You could have found this, for example:

https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime

Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity Hate Crimes on the rise 2014-2015-2016, rise of several hundred incidents every year, and that's just what gets reported or occurs in a manner the FBI can track. We'll get the 2017 data in a few months if they release it on the same timeline as previous releases.

Okay so now in response to posting "You can criticize Trump without being homophobic" I've had to explain the following:

- Why Portraying Men Kissing as an Insult is Homophobic
- That it is Possible to Portray a Close Relationship without being Homophobic
- Why Equating Gay with Weak, Feminine, and Subservient is Homophobic
- Dehumanization as a General Concept and how it leads to Violence and Discrimination
- That Homophobia is not an Essential Element of Art, Satire or Humor
- The Rise of Violence Against the LGBT community
- What a Hate Based Murder Is

This is why people are scared to post anything even mildly out of line with the approved groupthink here lol. "You can criticize Trump without being homophobic" shouldn't even be a controversial statement. Well, not to an audience that agrees with the premise that homophobia is wrong and that people are capable of expressing themselves in non-hate-based ways. And yet all but two of you have fought me on it.

Online Roleplay Frog

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2018, 11:46:16 AM »
Quote
A lunatic targeting a club that contains a lot of LGBT folks is not the same thing as a club being targeted because the people in it were LGBT.

If we count all the people that died that were LGBT, not those that died specifically because they were LGBT that doesn't show a hate based murder rate. And it would show much higher numbers in all of the years, not just the year of that tragedy.

I didn't expect to see a no true scotsman fallacy in this kind of context.

Anyway. you're over-invested in this issue and not seeing it rationally. Too lazy to point out all the instances.

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This is why people are scared to post anything even mildly out of line with the approved groupthink here lol.

People are? I'm happy to tell everyone that asks that I find the anti-trump extremes nearly as rediculous as r/The Donald. The amount of backlash against the man is irrelevant to him, to the contrary, it furthers his personality cult even further and some people are so dedicated to him, they follow him more actively than most of his fans. I tune in on the Trump thread for the same reason you turn your head when there's noises of car crashing happening, and Trump's like an accident highway delivering all day.

Offline RedPhoenixTopic starter

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2018, 01:55:29 PM »
I didn't expect to see a no true scotsman fallacy in this kind of context.

Anyway. you're over-invested in this issue and not seeing it rationally. Too lazy to point out all the instances.

Nor did you.

But at least you were honest in admitting that picking up on the wolfpack's call to label me emotional and avoid the points being made was just laziness.

I'm curious to see if anyone else is going to have the intellectual integrity to correct your complete misunderstanding of how hate crimes work, or if the wolfpack mentality that prevents any of them from agreeing with what I'm objectively correct about, or disagreeing with anyone who disagrees with me, will persist here.

If nobody is willing to risk the wolfpack's disapproval, I'll walk you through it in a few days. It's not that difficult.

Feel free to laughably accuse me of being emotional again lol, it's honestly just funny at this point. Maybe you want to throw in "shrill" and "hysterical" while you're at it lol.

Offline Blythe

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2018, 03:41:05 PM »
I've been thinking a lot about this topic in general. Apologies in advance for the wall of text. I probably won't post in this thread any more after this single post, but I wanted to contribute my rambling sprawl of thoughts.

I couldn't really figure out how I felt about the topic last night & was rather on the fence, so rather than contribute to discussion then, I decided to sit and really think about it, pushing back my first initial emotional reactions, and then considering carefully what sort of impressions I get from these images when I'm in a calmer state of mind. To help get my headspace into an alternative way of thinking, instead of thinking about homosexuality, I thought about it in the vein of another topic.

BDSM.

Hear me out, before anyone goes 'what-the-actual-fuck, Bly?'

There have been some satire and protest-type signs I've seen with Trump and Putin portraying them in BDSM postures or paraphernalia. Some of them I've seen literally photoshop Putin and Trump's heads onto BDSM model bodies. (I'd share what I've seen, but I don't actually find the images appropriate, and this side of the site is publicly accessible). And I thought to myself about how that made me feel about BDSM. About what the usage of BDSM-trappings in these signs signifies in terms of dominance and submission, and how these signs, while parody, while satire, really don't fit BDSM and force us to think of two men in sexual roles. And how that makes people who see the signs view BDSM--as something shameful. As if being submissive were somehow wrong. What message does this send about BDSM?

I also thought to myself "I wonder how various models feel when their bodies are used in photoshop antics like this." I can't imagine all of them approve. It reminds me of how a lot of gay men found their images used by anti-LGBT organizations. I know art is a bit different in that real life harm to models isn't always a factor, but...

It got me to thinking: "I'm uncomfortable with the BDSM images of Putin and Trump. I need to think about why that makes me uncomfortable and explore that in vein of the original topic at hand. So how do I feel about the homosexual satire art of them?"

While I'm a proponent of free speech, I am also a proponent of thoughtful and intelligent discourse.

What value do these signs add? Are they funny, or are they simply appealing to baser negative historical stereotypes, which I see as the lowest common denominator, for their humor?

I suspect it's the latter, more often than not. I tend to evaluate art and signs on a case-by-case basis. I don't divorce art or signs from the artist or the artist's intent, so if an image bothers me, I want to research it to see if it's just some throwaway gag or if some genuine thought or meaning beyond what i see on the surface is there. More often than not, I don't really find such meaning.

I'd never tell people they didn't have the right to create that art or those signs.

But I don't think they add anything of value to protests or debate. I think they create a weirdly hostile environment that encourages us to point and laugh rather than explore the deeper issues surrounding Trump's presidency and administration.

I think that type of art is lazy and uninspired. I think it draws on the worst in us for a cheap laugh. I think they diminish meaningful dialogues.

If I'm going to get into dark and edgy humor, it needs to be far better. It needs to be meaningful. I want my satire to have a cutting edge. I want my satire to teach me something about the uncomfortable darker parts of my self and challenge me to be better.

That art doesn't inspire anyone to repudiate Trump or Putin. It doesn't inspire anyone to change their stance. It doesn't meaningfully contribute to political discourse. I don't care if people laugh at it. I don't protest their right to share it.

But in particular, I wonder how it makes LGBT youth in Russia feel. There are horrifying human rights violations going on in Russia against LGBT individuals, so seeing art that is meant to portray Putin in a negative light, as 'gay,' is appealing to the already hostile atmosphere there.

I don't know how I feel about that sort of art here in the USA. I think we are in a complicated gross state of change in the USA, on the cusp of deciding if we are going to push back against discrimination or normalize it, as evinced by the growing political divide between the left and right. I think that in the USA, the rise in hate crimes is more attributable to the rollbacks in LGBT rights and the administration itself giving tacit nods to treating minorities like subhuman garbage moreso than any art piece is doing.

But I don't think that art is exactly helping us out one bit, either. It contributes nothing and distracts us in the USA from the major issues at hand. Because it's easy to post a picture of Trump and Putin kissing. It's not so easy to examine why LGBT youth are more likely to attempt and successfully commit suicide, be victims of assault, or worse. Those are hard topics that don't have easy answers.

I know I, for one, would rather have the hard discussions.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 03:50:48 PM by Blythe »

Offline RedPhoenixTopic starter

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2018, 06:53:12 PM »
What a beautiful, thoughtful post, thank you Blythe. :)

But I don't think they add anything of value to protests or debate. I think they create a weirdly hostile environment that encourages us to point and laugh rather than explore the deeper issues surrounding Trump's presidency and administration.

This especially. Thank you for understanding this.

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But in particular, I wonder how it makes LGBT youth in Russia feel.

Hell, it would make a young person in one of the most tolerant places in the world feel rejected, marginalized, and alone.

I can't imagine what it feels like in a place where things are so much worse. Soul crushing wouldn't even begin to cover it.

Offline RedPhoenixTopic starter

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2018, 04:01:43 PM »
Another excerpt from Donald Trump Isn’t Gay and Your Homophobic ‘Satire’ Isn’t Funny by Philip Ellis for Into's culture section.

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“It’s not homophobic,” a defender of one such cartoon told me when I criticised the portrayal of Trump and Putin locked in a kiss. “It’s funny because you know how much Trump would hate it.”

That argument would barely hold the two inches of water it takes to drown even if you were mailing your cartoon directly to the Oval Office, but it falls apart completely when you’re sharing the joke on social media for thousands of other people to see. The toxic bully you’re trying to parody will in all likelihood never look at your work, whereas a queer teen could all too easily see it and internalize the message that being gay or trans is something that the rest of the world sniggers at.

The first rule of comedy is to punch up, not down. You might think that you’re fighting the power by posting and sharing this kind of material but in reality, you’re just making it easier for everyone else to laugh at the people who, in our current political climate, are among the most vulnerable.

Very well put.

Offline Blythe

Re: Trump + Putin Images Thread
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2018, 04:50:48 PM »
(A whole second post from me--had more of a think, returned to the thread. Not sure if these rambling posts are really my best writing.)

I wanted to elaborate a bit more on the nature of these images, particularly as one point above I made was the following:

Quote
What value do these signs add? Are they funny, or are they simply appealing to baser negative historical stereotypes, which I see as the lowest common denominator, for their humor?

I suspect it's the latter, more often than not. I tend to evaluate art and signs on a case-by-case basis. I don't divorce art or signs from the artist or the artist's intent, so if an image bothers me, I want to research it to see if it's just some throwaway gag or if some genuine thought or meaning beyond what i see on the surface is there. More often than not, I don't really find such meaning.

When I am evaluating whether or not any given Trump/Putin parody-gay art or sign is problematic, this is my thought process:

  • What does this piece say beyond 'haha, Trump is treasonous & submissive to Putin!' I like to look at art with a historical context in mind when I can. The reason this matters to me is that something repeating the obvious ad nauseam doesn't strike me really as art or provocative. It just strikes me as parroting at best, or mindless groupthink at worst.
  • Who is the artist? Do they have a statement about what their piece means? Again, I don't divorce art from context. I am interested in what background of an artist. A homophobe (I'm talking about raging homophobes who advocate outright inequality, for example) who simply happen to be against Trump for other reasons creating that art means something very different than someone else showcasing or making that art.
  • Topical matters surrounding the creation of a piece of art or a sign at any given point. Environment matters when creating political protest or satire art. Art or humor that addresses particularly specific political issues beyond "rawr, we hate Trump and Putin!  >:( " is something I'm more likely to take seriously and not class as problematic.


More often than not, when I try to research various pieces, I don't really get or find much. They are usually reactionary pieces expressing general anger, outrage, or dissatisfaction. I don't begrudge people for their anger at the current administration. So while I won't say all such images are problematic, some definitely do come from a troubling place, socially-speaking. Art that revolves around sexual dominance/submission in particular is something I scrutinize very closely for numerous reasons--contributing to hostile atmospheres, etc.

I mentioned above I would never tell anyone they couldn't make that art or that they couldn't laugh at it. At least, not here in the USA. The USA is privileged to have some of the best protection of freedom of speech, in not outright the best,  in the world, in my opinion. USA citizens are privileged (and I do say this with a modicum of pride) to be able to speak our minds.

Oftentimes in incendiary and crude ways. I don't disagree with people's right to do that. I just don't think it's a sensible thing to do.

At the end of the day, I think my concerns come down to this: Just because something is legal doesn't mean it positively contributes. Just because some people find something funny doesn't mean others won't find issue with it. Humor is hard. Humor is difficult to do well. Political humor is especially volatile and difficult. Crass, crude, and potentially offensive humor certainly has its place in our lives, of course. I like dark and offensive humor myself at times.

But for me, where I don't want it is in my politics. It's hard enough to talk politics without having to talk over garish problematic art/protest signs that detract from deeper exploration of the real issues at hand. Not all of it will be crude or problematic, but enough of it is to justify at least being willing to look at each piece of art or each protest sign with a critical eye. 

(Interesting thread & topic overall. Was a good read.)
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 05:02:57 PM by Blythe »