Brexit

[Tamhansen]

Okay, so it seems that the British Parliament has rejected all of the eight options proposed... Now May wants them to vote on her version of the deal. The one they rejected two times already...

Seriously, this is madness. I've heard people say that, at this stage, the EU should just say "So we guess you're staying" and drop the whole matter... There's a point to that, I think.

At least, if the MPs can't decide, maybe they should allow for a second referendum?

No. Remember, a second vote would be undemocratic. The vote that was made without any facts is to be binding.

Having a second referendum would destroy Brexit altogether, and you can't have that. Especially with Brexit sending actual honest to God death threats to MP's.

See. The original idea of parliamentary democracy is that we the people would elect people who would study the issues, and make well informed decisions, so that the rest of us could focus on building houses, growing crops, or watching midget porn.

Most of us simply don't know enough about geopolitics or market economy to make such decisions.

If there is one thing the Brexit referendum has shown is that referenda on such important subjects are a bad idea. Most people who voted had no idea what exactly they voted for or against. The most common search terms on Google in the UK for the week after the referendum were: "What is the EU", and "What does the EU do?"

Now if only they'd looked it up before the vote.... But yeah, midget porn.

[Kitteredge]

An EU tactic of 'I guess you're staying' is actually an intriguing one, and possibly the most reasonable. The UK has proven it cannot govern itself, cannot even come up with even a basic guideline for leaving, it's as much like keeping their own population hostage. Things have slid past unacceptable and into 'non-functioning.'

I know the EU cannot continue to extend deadlines. They have member states to consider, as well as a legal framework. Their positron here is difficult, because giving new deadlines will likely be filled with more Tory intransigence and feckless squabbling overall. Scotland is pushing for a new referendum and NI is sitting there wondering what their future is.

I think we can generally agree that Parliament is incapable of any transition whatsoever, with or without May.

[Tamhansen]

I think we can generally agree that Parliament is incapable.

There, fixed that for you. . No, but seriously, your point is very valid.

For anyone wondering: How did they get here??.

This likely will answer your question: https://youtu.be/-IL2XwSkFJQ

[SidheLady]

Honestly, I find May's statement incredibly childish, not the statement of a leader.

[Mechelle]

Honestly, I find May's statement incredibly childish, not the statement of a leader.

I think she has always been a prisoner of events, ever since she called an election, expecting an easy victory, but lost her majority and became beholden to the DUP.

Her statements always seem to be not particularly fresh attempts to say the same thing in a different way. I have avoided the news today, but the latest wheeze seems to be to split the political and legal sides (?)  of the withdrawal agreement and call for a fresh vote on Friday. I don't claim to understand, though, so would welcome any further information.

At least, with some sense of public duty, she would be better than that charlatan Boris Johnson who is - incredibly - favourite to succeed her.

I have a feeling the next prime minister may be someone from a newer generation like Tobias Ellwood or Johnny Mercer, but we will see.

[Tamhansen]

Basically, Labour always denied May's deal not because of the divorce agreement, but because of the declaration of future relations. Labour wants much closer relations than in the current deal.

By splitting the deal into the divorce agreement and a separate declaration, she hopes to woo labour. Personally i hope Labour stay true to their voters and ideals, but experience has taught me that the current labour MP's wouldn't recognize a principle if it came up and slapped them in the face.

[Mechelle]

Thanks, I had seen something similar
on the news this morning. It all seems a bit desperate.

[Beorning]

It seems that May's deal has been rejected once again...

[Sara Nilsson]

We cant have a second Brexit referendum! the people have spoken!!

Here vote on my proposal a third time.

oO Yeah nice consistency there

[SidheLady]

I think she has always been a prisoner of events, ever since she called an election, expecting an easy victory, but lost her majority and became beholden to the DUP.

When she called the election, she could have come out of number 10 every day, read out a horrascope or said "brexit means brexit" and skated through with a majority.

I think May is spectactularly unsuited for leadership, she might be a good politician, but a good leader (reguardless of the name) is different

[Tamhansen]

We cant have a second Brexit referendum! the people have spoken!!

Here vote on my proposal a third time.

oO Yeah nice consistency there

Make that 4 times. She's planning to put it on again next week.

When she called the election, she could have come out of number 10 every day, read out a horrascope or said "brexit means brexit" and skated through with a majority.

I think May is spectactularly unsuited for leadership, she might be a good politician, but a good leader (reguardless of the name) is different

May was never going to get a majority ever. Just like the Brexit vote itself, many people saw the election as a way to protest the government that was turning their country to shit.

The issues that many people bring up that made them vote Brexit had little to do with the EU, but everything with the Tories (and their erstwhile Lieberal democrat lackeys) and their insistance on implementing an austerity policy that was proven to be based on false models and flat out lies two years before they implemented it. But yet they persevered. Why? Because they don't want the country to run smooth. A destabilised impoverished country is better for their business interests.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/child-poverty-absolute-uk-housing-crisis-costs-austerity-conservatives-a8843381.html  This is what austerity does.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/pip-waiting-time-deaths-disabled-people-die-disability-benefits-personal-independence-payment-dwp-a8727296.html  This is what austerity does
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/30/budget-income-tax-cuts-to-overwhelmingly-benefit-the-richThis is what austerity does

Yet with the help of the BBC and Rupert Murdoch's media conglomerate, they've managed to make the EU seem like the bad guys.

[gaggedLouise]

Make that 4 times. She's planning to put it on again next week.


May was never going to get a majority ever. Just like the Brexit vote itself, many people saw the election as a way to protest the government that was turning their country to shit.

Exactly. Pushing for a fourth vote when she's already had it nixed big time three times over (the first two with historically tough rejection numbers) is...political dementia.

May would have been forced to step down long ago, if there had been more unity among her many enemies.

[gaggedLouise]

The headline "The Brexit Betrayal" on the front page of some UK tabloid makes me think of the album title The Kinks Kontroversy... 

[Mechelle]

All four Brexit votes, which did not include May's, were lost tonight. No doubt she will claim that this means hers is the only possibility, but the Customs Union, proposed by senior moderate Conservative Ken Clarke, lost by only 3 votes, much closer than any of hers, so there may be mileage in this.

[gaggedLouise]

All four Brexit votes, which did not include May's, were lost tonight. No doubt she will claim that this means hers is the only possibility, but the Customs Union, proposed by senior moderate Conservative Ken Clarke, lost by only 3 votes, much closer than any of hers, so there may be mileage in this.

Yep, that one and another one (confirmatory public vote on any Brexit deal) also backed by Labour were quite close. The DUP had made a promise that they would abstain but they seem to have forgotten about that and voted against all four - if it had not been for their votes, the customs union option would have got through.

I'm not going to write here what I hope Arlene Foster's special place in Hell would be like. 

[Mechelle]

Yep, that one and another one (confirmatory public vote on any Brexit deal) also backed by Labour were quite close. The DUP had made a promise that they would abstain but they seem to have forgotten about that and voted against all four - if it had not been for their votes, the customs union option would have got through.

I'm not going to write here what I hope Arlene Foster's special place in Hell would be like. 

The Conservative hard-line Brexiteers of the ERG really didn't understand the DUP when they went into an informal alliance.
The former wanted a hard Brexit at all costs - although their inept political manoeuvring has made it less likely - while the DUP's primary aim is to keep Northern Ireland as an integral part of the United Kingdom, obeying the same laws (apart from some of the pesky ones such as allowing same sex marriage). The Irish land border makes the two incompatible.

Also, in an emotional speech in the House of Commons, Conservative Nick Boles resigned the party whip in disgust and frustration today at his party's refusal to compromise, after his vote was defeated.

There were also naked protesters in Parliament, but this was for environmental issues and nothing to do with Brexit, for once.

[gaggedLouise]

There were also naked protesters in Parliament, but this was for environmental issues and nothing to do with Brexit, for once.

Yes, I saw them in a quick flash on the late.night news. They were effectively mooning the MPs from the spectators' gallery - and were arrested for disorderly behaviour or something like that. 

[karkas132]

Well, as an American from the outside looking in I cannot honestly say what is best for the people of the UK, that is for them to decide but i'll give my two cents on the EU.

To me, the EU is unelected bureaucracy that has too much power over the sovereignty of its member states, and I have a disdain for such organizations or really any unelected bureaucracy that can arbitrarily make bills and legislation that have an effect on millions of people without them having a say in who is even representing them in this unelected body, similar to how I despise the FCC and its ability to arbitrarily gut net neutrality despite the majority of Americans having been opposed to such a measure.

The EU in my opinion has become far more of a political entity than it ever should have and should have remained a monetary and trade union, which is to my understanding what it was intended to be but it has become something of a monolithic power that can dictate even how Freedom of Speech works in its member states which I dont believe it should have any right to do what so ever.

As I stated, this is my opinion from an outside perspective based on my understanding of things, if any of what I have said is factually incorrect please feel free to correct me and provide any useful links you might have to further my understanding.

Cheers

[gaggedLouise]

Well, as an American from the outside looking in I cannot honestly say what is best for the people of the UK, that is for them to decide but i'll give my two cents on the EU.

To me, the EU is unelected bureaucracy that has too much power over the sovereignty of its member states, and I have a disdain for such organizations or really any unelected bureaucracy that can arbitrarily make bills and legislation that have an effect on millions of people without them having a say in who is even representing them in this unelected body, similar to how I despise the FCC and its ability to arbitrarily gut net neutrality despite the majority of Americans having been opposed to such a measure.

The EU in my opinion has become far more of a political entity than it ever should have and should have remained a monetary and trade union, which is to my understanding what it was intended to be but it has become something of a monolithic power that can dictate even how Freedom of Speech works in its member states which I dont believe it should have any right to do what so ever.

As I stated, this is my opinion from an outside perspective based on my understanding of things, if any of what I have said is factually incorrect please feel free to correct me and provide any useful links you might have to further my understanding.

Cheers

I do agree that the drive of some EU elites to turn the EU into a federal "superstate", or a rigid political entity with a common set of laws and regulations for all members on many topics, this is a real problem. The EU should be an area for free cooperation (and free trade etc), not a wannabe pan-European state. There's a lot to discuss there and I agree there are real, valid grievances - but unfortunately the UK's Brexiteers and Brexit parties have mostly managed to kick themselves hard in the teeth, when trying to translate this into real politics.

[karkas132]

Yeah I remember reading about how an EU Court ruled that someone criticizing the muslim prophet mohammed for his alleged pedophilia was hate speech and not protected under free speech when she wasn't in fact trashing muslims or calling out for any sort of movement against them but was simply criticizing certain parts of the religion and I was pretty appalled, it is of my opinion that all things, religions, institutions, governments, courts, everything, deserves to be criticized constantly because thats how these institutions grow and improve.

My concern is definitely that the EU has far too much power but that the Brexit politicians have completely fucked up any chance people have of criticizing the EU and with recent bills like article 13 my concern has only grown.

[Orval Wintermute]

To me, the EU is unelected bureaucracy that has too much power over the sovereignty of its member states.

Except it is not unelected.
There is the European Parliament where MEP's are directly elected by the public using proportional representation.
There is the European Council, which is the elected Heads of State of all member nations.
And the European Commission, where the Heads of State appoint commisioners and a President but those appointments have to be ratified the European Parliament.

As for the bureaucracy, the EU employs 30,000 civil servants the UK employs 10 times that number.

I have a disdain for such organizations or really any unelected bureaucracy that can arbitrarily make bills and legislation

It can't. The Commission proposes laws but they have to be approved by the Parliament. Even then the Commission can only propose changes in areas that EU Council lets them.

The EU in my opinion has become far more of a political entity than it ever should have and should have remained a monetary and trade union

Monetary union actually requires a closer political union than a simple trading bloc would. With monetary union everyone needs to going in roughly the same economic direction so there need to some political alignment to make sure that happens.

it has become something of a monolithic power that can dictate even how Freedom of Speech works in its member states

It can't

Yeah I remember reading about how an EU Court ruled that someone criticizing the muslim prophet mohammed for his alleged pedophilia was hate speech

That's the ECHR nothing to do with the EU.
The ECHR is part of the Council of Europe which includes Russia as a member.

https://www.dw.com/en/calling-prophet-muhammad-a-pedophile-does-not-fall-within-freedom-of-speech-european-court/a-46050749

[Mechelle]

What Orval said.

Tonight, after a lengthy cabinet meeting, Theresa May has given a statement that she will request a further short extension and then work with Jeremy Corbyn to achieve a soft Brexit in the national interest.

All very sensible, but it should really have been done three years ago. Some Labour people see it is an attempt to set Corbyn up, while the hardline Tory Brexiters see it as a betrayal. As she is supposedly stepping down before too long, I am unsure how any agreement (in the UK) could be made to stick.

[Kitteredge]

Why does Corbyn have to accept involvement? This seems extortionate. I realize Corbyn is more on the Leave side, but his party isn't. Why does he have to dance with May at her request? Meanwhile, why does the EU have to permit more time? I realize they might, since their hope is the UK eventually comes to its senses, but this seems like yet another ploy by May to strongarm some weak solution out of those who have no need to provide her help. The Tories cannot govern within their own caucus; why does she expect Labour to do the work for her?

[Beorning]

I honestly don't understand why May keeps pushing her deal once again, after it has been rejected the third time..?

[Mechelle]

I think it actually has changed now, as she has recognised it needs to be one to get through Parliament, hence the talks with Corbyn who has said he will take part in the talks.
These talks would be about the future relationship, not the withdrawal agreement and she is still aiming to leave by May 22nd, so we don't take part in the elections, although I will believe that when I see it.