EU copyright Directive article 13

[midnightblack]

We are all very tired of this at this point. Us Europeans have lost all faith in this Orwellian over-state.

Uh, perhaps "Orwellian over-state" may be pushing it a bit?  ::)

Europe's an eclectic but pretty chill place all in all, and that's coming from someone living in one of its more backwater countries.

[Quick Ben]

Okay, I can see that. It's the local context of political statements we don't see over here that give the credibility to your worries I didn't see.

The EU always did seem like a sort of ramshackle entity, trying to find a nebulous compromise between independent sovereignties and unification. Not trying go full MURICA, but it reminds me of the Articles of Confederation that the American colonies originally wrote. Ambitious, but riddled with so many undermining clauses as to lose any real scope of effectiveness - and at least the Continental Congress was still elected. From what others have said here, it sounds like the EU Parliament only serves to rubber-stamp decisions made by the un-elected bureaucratic wing.

Bingo.

The EU may have been a benevolent idea at the beginning. I preface that with a 'may' because I'm deeply suspicious of any governing body that can stick its hands into another country's business, especially when that body was not elected by that country's people. Their pressure to push EU-members into taking a seemingly indefinite number of refugees has created a massive divide that we see today in the EU. The refugee crisis is a major reason why the people of the UK voted to leave. It's a major reason why Hungary has fought back against the EU, as has Poland, and now it seems Italy is joining that front.

I suspect we may soon see Italy exit the EU, Poland exit the EU, and Hungary exit the EU.

Admittedly, I have qualms with the EU so take me as a biased source: but who isn't biased? I'd rather see the EU as a governing body die, frankly. Let country's be country's ruled by the elected leaders of their citizens. That's as it should be.

[Shiva]

Uh, perhaps "Orwellian over-state" may be pushing it a bit?  ::)

No. It's a body of politicians that nobody has elected, and they make major decisions with immense societal impact for us without any kind of vote or consideration of the citizens in question. It is an Orwellian over-state by definition.

[TheGlyphstone]

I tend to use 'Orwellian' as an adjective more in line with the book itself - as quoted a summary:

' an attitude and a brutal policy of draconian control by propaganda, surveillance, misinformation, denial of truth (doublethink), and manipulation of the past". Un-elected officials making sweeping policy decisions is Autocratic, but without the above traits is not in itself Orwellian.

[Shiva]

I tend to use 'Orwellian' as an adjective more in line with the book itself - as quoted a summary:

' an attitude and a brutal policy of draconian control by propaganda, surveillance, misinformation, denial of truth (doublethink), and manipulation of the past". Un-elected officials making sweeping policy decisions is Autocratic, but without the above traits is not in itself Orwellian.

Well, you don't live here, so I can be difficult to understand. It's much more than just this incident. All of those things that you listed are present in a realistic sense as opposed to fictional.

[midnightblack]

No. It's a body of politicians that nobody has elected, and they make major decisions with immense societal impact for us without any kind of vote or consideration of the citizens in question. It is an Orwellian over-state by definition.

Actually, the politicians are either selected from the European Parliament (that is, from representatives voted by the people of Europe), or picked from member countries based on approval from their national leaders (which again, are voted by the people of the said country). "Orwellian" refers to an extreme limit of totalitarianism and was largely inspired by Stalinism.   

Of course that life in the EU isn't perfect and not at the same standard throughout the member states, but I'm pretty certain that it's largely better than in most other places on Earth. I've traveled here and there, so I got to have a taste of a few different flavors regarding the quality of life. Today I live in the butt-end of civilized Europe, and still the only thing I can really complain about is the Internet speed lol. 

[Shiva]

Actually, the politicians are either selected from the European Parliament (that is, from representatives voted by the people of Europe), or picked from member countries based on approval from their national leaders (which again, are voted by the people of the said country). "Orwellian" refers to an extreme limit of totalitarianism and was largely inspired by Stalinism.   

Of course that life in the EU isn't perfect and not at the same standard throughout the member states, but I'm pretty certain that it's largely better than in most other places on Earth. I've traveled here and there, so I got to have a taste of a few different flavors regarding the quality of life. Today I live in the butt-end of civilized Europe, and still the only thing I can really complain about is the Internet speed lol. 

I haven't been anywhere to vote on a major issue in my entire life, other than which party that gets to rule without consequence in parliament. I don't consider this to be a democracy. We are constantly bombarded with propaganda in media about right-wing 'extremism', 'populism', and 'racism'. People are fined or go to jail for being criticizing immigration policies online, next to losing their jobs and friends. And we are constantly told that our native people don't exist, and that we have no culture, that we should just disappear, that our 'future' is in immigrants.

I understand that this forum is a left-wing echo chamber, which is fine, but please don't undermine the severity of this situation. It's very insulting.

[Lustful Bride]

I haven't been anywhere to vote on a major issue in my entire life, other than which party that gets to rule without consequence in parliament. I don't consider this to be a democracy. We are constantly bombarded with propaganda in media about right-wing 'extremism', 'populism', and 'racism'. People are fined or go to jail for being criticizing immigration policies online, next to losing their jobs and friends. And we are constantly told that our native people don't exist, and that we have no culture, that we should just disappear, that our 'future' is in immigrants.

I understand that this forum is a left-wing echo chamber, which is fine, but please don't undermine the severity of this situation. It's very insulting.

You kind of went to an extreme there. While I will agree that we always here more about the things the far right does (usually because the extreme right uses violence more often) I don't think it is to the extreme you feel it is. I have heard the tired meme of 'The West has no culture' a lot, but I think half of it (Like many insulting things on the internet) is really done just to get a rise out of people.

Then again I'm not European, and I don't know enough to really say one way or the other.

[Sain]

I haven't been anywhere to vote on a major issue in my entire life, other than which party that gets to rule without consequence in parliament. I don't consider this to be a democracy. We are constantly bombarded with propaganda in media about right-wing 'extremism', 'populism', and 'racism'. People are fined or go to jail for being criticizing immigration policies online, next to losing their jobs and friends. And we are constantly told that our native people don't exist, and that we have no culture, that we should just disappear, that our 'future' is in immigrants.

I understand that this forum is a left-wing echo chamber, which is fine, but please don't undermine the severity of this situation. It's very insulting.

That probably varies country-to-country in EU. Here in Finland nobody except the most lunatic left wingers are claiming we don't have a culture. Of course we didn't get as many immigrants % wise as some of the other countries so what we got seems to be more and more something that we can handle.

In regards to EU parlament and this recent law though. Yeah... It's ridiculous how few actually vote MEPs based on their opinions. It's also nigh impossible to know what is going on in EU level decision making for the average citizen since it's rarely in the news in any significant way. I just hope that they define the articles 11 and 13 more until they make the final directive.

[midnightblack]

I haven't been anywhere to vote on a major issue in my entire life, other than which party that gets to rule without consequence in parliament. I don't consider this to be a democracy. We are constantly bombarded with propaganda in media about right-wing 'extremism', 'populism', and 'racism'. People are fined or go to jail for being criticizing immigration policies online, next to losing their jobs and friends. And we are constantly told that our native people don't exist, and that we have no culture, that we should just disappear, that our 'future' is in immigrants.

I understand that this forum is a left-wing echo chamber, which is fine, but please don't undermine the severity of this situation. It's very insulting.

I was merely suggesting that calling the EU an "Orwellian over-state" may be a slight over-statement. Especially given that the quality of life of the European citizens has been steadily increasing over the last decades. I recall what a disaster my country was back in the 90s, when I was a toddler. For all of its present-day flaws, it's still leaps and bounds away from where it was 20-30 years ago. And that is objectively true throughout pretty much all of Europe. While I have no intention to be insulting (and I can only apologize if I come off as that), I will admit that I somewhat fail to see "the severity of the situation".

Regarding your other statement, I'd like to point out that parties don't get to rule without consequence. Precisely because you live in a democracy, it is your duty as a free citizen to keep a watchful eye and call them out if they intend to do stupid things. I would know, as over here we've been battling morons in charge for close to 2 years now and managed to stop a lot of their crap by calling it out and taking to the streets. Of course that ideally you should never be in the situation to have to do this, but in an "Orwellian" society we would have all been reduced to the dust of our bones instead of getting our point across.

I don't get much media bombardment, probably because I tend to do a pretty good job at shielding myself from it. I don't find its influence particularly healthy. It's really just a personal opinion, but I think most stuff on the Internet regarding the things that you mentioned should be taken with care and a grain of salt, as reality is generally a bit more complex and nuanced than the way it is portrayed in order to fit a given agenda.

[SidheLady]

Okay, just an update, it's passed the first stage. It will be voted on again at the end of the year, or early next year

[Skynet]

I haven't been anywhere to vote on a major issue in my entire life, other than which party that gets to rule without consequence in parliament. I don't consider this to be a democracy. We are constantly bombarded with propaganda in media about right-wing 'extremism', 'populism', and 'racism'. People are fined or go to jail for being criticizing immigration policies online, next to losing their jobs and friends. And we are constantly told that our native people don't exist, and that we have no culture, that we should just disappear, that our 'future' is in immigrants.

I understand that this forum is a left-wing echo chamber, which is fine, but please don't undermine the severity of this situation. It's very insulting.

Source on the bold?

[Sara Nilsson]

That probably varies country-to-country in EU. Here in Finland nobody except the most lunatic left wingers are claiming we don't have a culture. Of course we didn't get as many immigrants % wise as some of the other countries so what we got seems to be more and more something that we can handle.

Yeah I never heard of anything like that in Sweden either. And I have never heard anyone claim that the sami don't exist. With it being midsummer now you just need to look out and see lots and lots of Swedish culture (or rather I would have if I hadn't been stuck in this hell hole of a country ^^)

[Shiva]

I was merely suggesting that calling the EU an "Orwellian over-state" may be a slight over-statement. Especially given that the quality of life of the European citizens has been steadily increasing over the last decades. I recall what a disaster my country was back in the 90s, when I was a toddler. For all of its present-day flaws, it's still leaps and bounds away from where it was 20-30 years ago. And that is objectively true throughout pretty much all of Europe. While I have no intention to be insulting (and I can only apologize if I come off as that), I will admit that I somewhat fail to see "the severity of the situation".

Regarding your other statement, I'd like to point out that parties don't get to rule without consequence. Precisely because you live in a democracy, it is your duty as a free citizen to keep a watchful eye and call them out if they intend to do stupid things. I would know, as over here we've been battling morons in charge for close to 2 years now and managed to stop a lot of their crap by calling it out and taking to the streets. Of course that ideally you should never be in the situation to have to do this, but in an "Orwellian" society we would have all been reduced to the dust of our bones instead of getting our point across.

I don't get much media bombardment, probably because I tend to do a pretty good job at shielding myself from it. I don't find its influence particularly healthy. It's really just a personal opinion, but I think most stuff on the Internet regarding the things that you mentioned should be taken with care and a grain of salt, as reality is generally a bit more complex and nuanced than the way it is portrayed in order to fit a given agenda.

We have different perceptions of things, then, and that's fine. The things I mention are based on what I've observed in my daily life, around the people I know and talk to. It has nothing to do with conspiracies on the internet.

Source on the bold?

That would out where I live. I have no interest in doing that.

[Skynet]

That would out where I live. I have no interest in doing that.

And other people in this thread said that this is not happening in the Europe they also share beyond some fringe groups with little if any power. If I may ask in case the situation is wildly different where you are, what is the country you currently reside in?

[Sain]

And other people in this thread said that this is not happening in the Europe they also share beyond some fringe groups with little if any power. If I may ask in case the situation is wildly different where you are, what is the country you currently reside in?

To be fair some of us mentioned our experience in two countries. No idea what's going on in the others. EU is rather heterogeneous compared to US so I would not use two anecdotes as any sort of evidence to make generalizations on. Experiences may vary.

[Oniya]

And other people in this thread said that this is not happening in the Europe they also share beyond some fringe groups with little if any power. If I may ask in case the situation is wildly different where you are, what is the country you currently reside in?

Shiva has said that they don't want to reveal their location.  While that means that there's no way of confirming their statement, that request should be respected.

[Skynet]

To be fair some of us mentioned our experience in two countries. No idea what's going on in the others. EU is rather heterogeneous compared to US so I would not use two anecdotes as any sort of evidence to make generalizations on. Experiences may vary.

Shiva has said that they don't want to reveal their location.  While that means that there's no way of confirming their statement, that request should be respected.

I didn't know if Shiva was talking about Europe as a whole or a more localized phenomenon of leftist caricatures gaining mainstream legitimacy. But I did not know she wished for her nationality to be confidential, so I apologize for asking.

[SidheLady]

I didn't know if Shiva was talking about Europe as a whole or a more localized phenomenon of leftist caricatures gaining mainstream legitimacy. But I did not know she wished for her nationality to be confidential, so I apologize for asking.

I know in the UK, much like in the US, there does seem to be a subtle bias in the media and reporting, what is reported and how. I suspect, this is what Shiva is referring to. However, when it comes to the EU, there are huge pieces of the actual political machinery that has no accountability.

[Shiva]

I didn't know if Shiva was talking about Europe as a whole or a more localized phenomenon of leftist caricatures gaining mainstream legitimacy. But I did not know she wished for her nationality to be confidential, so I apologize for asking.

I guess it's not a big deal, really. For the sake of argument here, I've searched for an example. This video is from an official, political gathering where even the King was present. This woman is some kind of respected historian.

'There is no native Swedish culture': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eajx2iUWlFQ. At 1:40 in the video, she says "The idea that there would be a uniform, native culture with roots in ancient history is not based on facts." She is talking about Swedish culture.

Of course, I can't search for every instance where similar statements are made. It happens in various interviews, TV shows, news articles, etc., that might originally be about something else such as immigration.

[midnightblack]

However, when it comes to the EU, there are huge pieces of the actual political machinery that has no accountability.

No, not really. You make it sound like there's someone enforcing decisions for everyone else on no other basis aside of just because they can, and it's not like that at all. In fact, I'd say that people in charge argue way too much about what needs to be done and take way too long to actually come to a decision. If anything, that's a sign of a healthy democratic system based on debate and argument.  :P

At 1:40 in the video, she says "The idea that there would be a uniform, native culture with roots in ancient history is not based on facts." She is talking about Swedish culture.

I'm not a native Swede, but I did spend some time in that country and I have real life Swede acquaintances, so I am somewhat familiar with the way things are there. What I can say is that the view you quote is pretty specific to them in particular. I am not in a position to argue whether or not it is correct. However, I invite you to try traveling to many countries within the union, particularly eastern ones, and tell them they don't have a culture. You'll be in for a rough time.  :P There's actually a pretty strong uprising of ultra-nationalistic tendencies in some of those countries, claiming to defend precisely the culture and tradition of the people there from the many evils of globalization.

As far as I'm concerned, both sides of this loud coin are made of opportunistic dimwits that crave their moment of glory, but I think they're roughly akin to dogs barking on the side of the road while the bear keeps lumbering along.

[Vekseid]

I know in the UK, much like in the US, there does seem to be a subtle bias in the media and reporting, what is reported and how. I suspect, this is what Shiva is referring to. However, when it comes to the EU, there are huge pieces of the actual political machinery that has no accountability.

A couple years ago when a bunch of African Americans in Milwaukee had a riot ('beating up every white person!') CNN edited the audio for a bunch of footage, got caught, and got mocked.

Then they turn around and hire far-right commentators and wonder why so many people simply hate them.

It used to be a lot worse. Technology has made this easier to expose, rather than less.

No equivalent of this law in the US would be able to stop people from reporting on that sort of manipulation. There is a lot of case law protecting this in the United States, especially with regards to preventing the reporting of criticism and news in general. The only Supreme Court justice whose opinion on this is in question is Gorsuch. He's uttered some pretty idiotic opinions (Oil States Energy Services, LLC v. Greene's Energy Group, LLC), but that would be a lot of case law and precedent for even him to toss out the window.



Meanwhile I feel Europe is slowly tying their own noose with this. You set up laws like this, and if fascists win, then what happens? This apparatus you've built gets turned against the speech you originally sought to promote.

[RedRose]

Yeah, despite SOME common laws, Europe is still extremely varied. Portugal isn't Poland isn't France isn't Denmark. Internet laws also differ.
I'm familiar with the press in various countries. It's almost always biased some way or another, especially on loaded topics, controversial ones, or because drama sells.

[Vekseid]

Split off most of the immigration discussion here:
https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=289683.msg14226958#msg14226958

Could probably have picked a better title but still.

[gaggedLouise]

The EU parliament has just returned a NO vote on this! :D

The proposed directive will now have to be rewritten, hopefully in a more cautious manner, before it is given another vote in the EUP this autumn. It should be possible to keep the more disturbing and intrusive aspects of the bill off the books indefinitely (or until the next Europarl elections next year) :)

http://www.wired.co.uk/article/article-13-eu-copyright-directive-memes