The Kingmaker (Pathfinder Adventure Path 1-20) (Closed?)

[TheScarletBlade]

I agree lizzie. I don't think that an evil party means everyone wants to kill each other. Think of the evil party as a group of dispassionate mercenaries. They all like each other and work together but just don't care about helping people, without pay. Lol

[Vergil Tanner]

Well, from a purely Forum-level, I think that seven characters is way too unwieldly. The combats get absolutely massive and take AGES to get through, people end up waiting weeks for their turn and encounters have to be ridiculously large to actually pose a threat. I can kinda see six characters being ok for a party, but seven? That's way too big, and throws off the entire balance of the game. Manageable in real life, sure, but on a forum where everything is necessarily slower paced anyway? Seven is going to be a HUGE headache. Believe me, I've done it before xD If you want everybody to be involved...I really do think it has to be divided into three parties. It's your call, but on a forum like this...seven is an inevitable disaster.

In terms of writing potential...I see a lot of potential between Drazzak and Aurora, and Drazzak and Malekah. Beyond that, I think Luckums would be hilarious to write with, and I do like the idea of an Elf-Raised Human ending up in a party with a Half Orc. xD

[JoanieSappho]

Oh, no worries there. Linde's definitely on the Lawful side more than anything, so no stealing of betraying or that sort of thing will be happening with her.
The main Evil thing with her is that, yeah, she doesn't hunt down bandits to protect people, she doesn't care about that in the slightest. Just for revenge and because it makes her feel happy tinglies in places.
She wouldn't just go after random people either, because she's no bandit!

As for team size, it depends. We could do one if there's enough in the AP to have us splitting off fairly often into smaller groups to do more than one thing at a time. Otherwise, yeah, too many for a single group, especially online. Having them set up neighbouring kingdoms could be interesting, but I've not looked at Kingmaker enough to tell how possible that would be.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Also note that as Asmodeus follower cooperation and teamwork are important aspects so my char is more strictly lawful side of things in spectrum. However his evil side mostly comes that he is ready to take immoral actions if it serves a greater benefit as whole to his and group plans. Evil does not always equal to party which sabotages itself; only chaotic evil entire party would potentially do that but even than chaotic evil party can think itself as a pack and you do not screw over packmates; you instead screw everybody else outside the pack.

So best way view evil group (with some neutrals) is view it like a pack which cares about only themselves but not others as much (if not count law vs chaos thing as lawful evil party does respect law and even reinforces it, harshly possibly). A good/lawful good person may show mercy to bandit if someone became bandit for sake feed itself + family, lawful evil would not care about it and lawful person would consider sparing the bandit from execution (but still bandit pay for it's crimes one way or other).

[Saric]

Okay so, I just did a little checking, and we seem light on healers. Should I respec as an Oracle of Life instead of Elemental Mysteries?

[Petrus02]

Had to change feats, as i did not see quickdraw has the prerequ of a bab +1, and added a sheet for Faendal, the Allosaurus.
Animal Companion
https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1547494
Charsheet:
https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1543453

background is mostly done now too. might add some more, but no promises there.

Lady Edith says: for those who wonder where it is: its inside of Faeranduil's Charsheet, on the bottom

Lady Edith says further: I'm happy with Kingmaker or any other AP, aside from Skulls and shackles, which the character is ill fitted for and i acutally have little to no interest of playing.

Also, the character is designed to work in a neutral or better group, but could fit into a partially evil group too. i'd prefer  alignment based groups but can work with almost anything^^

[Roleplay Frog]

Okay so, I just did a little checking, and we seem light on healers. Should I respec as an Oracle of Life instead of Elemental Mysteries?

Gibe frog money, frog gives you healing. Alchemists get ok healing, but need to burn a kinda important thing to be able to potion up other people for free.

Anyway, four-four-five sounds like the best idea to me, if TSB can keep up with three games activitiy wise *chuckles*

[Petrus02]

Okay so, I just did a little checking, and we seem light on healers. Should I respec as an Oracle of Life instead of Elemental Mysteries?

might be a good idea. Alchemist and Hunter, as well as bard and witch CAN heal, but are no real healers, they are support healers at best.

Lady Edith says: Warpriest could heal too, but seeing as Zear chose asmodeus, he wont be able to channel positive, and warpriests are not the best class to cast healing magic anyway. another support healer at best.

[Roleplay Frog]

I don't understand what you mean with 'real healer'

There's no such thing as a real in combat healer. You can rp a pacifist that only heal/assists others, and it can be fun, to be clear, but in combat wise I guarantee that basic support healing like bard or Alchemist are as best as you can get otherwise. Enemies will always out damage you, you -want- a character that can heal but also do X. Healing is something you mostly do after fights to prepare for another upcoming fight.

[Petrus02]

What i am talking about is in combat and after combat. Classes that can cast healing spells and have channel energy at their disposal are what I call "real healer". they can make a group fight for much longer just by virtue of having that channel energy pool that provides healing to the whole group with 1 action. Not having someone like this in a group does not automatically kill the group, your completely right with that. but the group won't be able to take on as many challanges in a row, and are always in greater peril against bosses due to lacking group healing.  for example fighting with a dragon would pit the clerics healing against the dragons breathweapon. leave out the channel energy, and the group might still kill the dragon. but they are bound to be much more heavily injured, possibly some are killed. nor can other classes with access to healing magic compete with the ability to remove status effects with those of cleric/oracle. (Paladin and shaman left aside, seeing as no one is willing to play one anyway) for example: Druid gets lesser restoration, yes. but Restoration is Cleric. Druid gets reincarnation, yes. but simple revival via raise dead is cleric.

[Miroque]

So many posts... and all I did was go to work today...


Anywho, my take on the split party dilema, is GM go for it. Split as you seem workable, to your campaigns. Sidenote is that I love to play Kingmaker, but if choosen to some other campaign, I might need to rethink my character for more suited for it.

Evil vs Good: Dont go there.. mixing alignments causes RP opportunities, unless someone is Stupid-good or chaotic-Stupid. Good and evil will need to work together, as does lawful and chaotic persons.

[wander]

My halfling bard Serpico has 'Cure Light Wounds' as a Level 1 spell. Can't do it over and over, though he's got it.

[Diabolus Lupus]

Evil vs Good: Dont go there.. mixing alignments causes RP opportunities, unless someone is Stupid-good or chaotic-Stupid. Good and evil will need to work together, as does lawful and chaotic persons.

If they're competing to create a country in the same area, it might still make for interesting opportunities. The biggest thing is motivators and what kind of country the parties seek to create. A 'good' party might seek to set up a kingdom/empire of sorts that cares for it's citizens and allows for a plethora of personal freedoms. Where as an 'evil' party might seek the same kingdom aspect, but it might be more tyrannical. Conversely, the 'good' kingdom might end up more tyrannical by trying to make sure everyone follows rules set up for 'the good of the people'. While the 'evil' kingdom has more personal freedoms and everyone is actually happier despite the actual motivations of the ruler/s.

[Roleplay Frog]

[...] the clerics healing against the dragons breathweapon. leave out the channel energy, and the group might still kill the dragon.

Wrong way of looking at it. Here's the thing. Even if you undo the dragons damage with your turn, that dragon is going to cause more damage, next turn. On high level play the consensus is priority one is to drop the threat, not mitigate its damage. That breath weapon recharges, your spells don't, and I say all that as someone that likes to play healers. Challenges scale to player numbers, so if you have a generic group of 4 and throw in a 5th dedicated healer, now that dragon endures more hits and dishes out more damage.

The main ability of a healer is lasting out endurance fights, which, hopefully we will not face in forum-posts. All secondary abilities, like after combat healing and making sure people knocked out get back up rather than die (something many DM's avoid anyway), any character with acess to a few cure spells can provide.

As for the lesser restoration argument.. that mainly applies if you have partymembers that have self-draining abilities, for example the Hellfire warlock in 3.5 really likes a restoration buddy. Again, I dun see fights getting that deadly that quickly and if they do some positive energy conversion is not going to be enough, you need a dedicated healer that does more than simply restore hitpoints a plop.

[wander]

As a hand up, I really dislike PvP, I'm hoping that things don't go down that path with this talk of competing kingdoms.

[Zaer Darkwail]

True that with Asmodeus I cannot heal but I can still use a wand/scrolls (ofc buying them is own dilemma or get someone craft them). Our frog girl needs time craft potions....and Kingmaker has periods, literally years, where crafters can craft any stuff they want to craft. However even if I sacrificed channel energy for weapon training my main method of healing is 'Kill it before it causes further harm' or 'debuf it so it cannot hit shit' or 'buff everyone able survive better' (war mind gives +1 bonus to saves or AC if desired example).

So my warpriest is about mitigating damage than outright curing it off hand but considering I can prepare spells, I can prepare powerful healing spells (like Heal) for emergency or raise folks from dead.

[Roleplay Frog]

Our frog girl needs time craft potions....and Kingmaker has periods, literally years, where crafters can craft any stuff they want to craft.

It does? Well, with enough time to craft and some peace and quiet Froggo can make enough poison or healing potions for an army. *chuckles*. (no one is better at making potions than an alchemist, go figure) High level alchemist has an even more important quality than big heals.. they can stay alive fairly well themselfs with weird alchemical powers.

[Petrus02]

Wrong way of looking at it. Here's the thing. Even if you undo the dragons damage with your turn, that dragon is going to cause more damage, next turn. On high level play the consensus is priority one is to drop the threat, not mitigate its damage. That breath weapon recharges, your spells don't, and I say all that as someone that likes to play healers. Challenges scale to player numbers, so if you have a generic group of 4 and throw in a 5th dedicated healer, now that dragon endures more hits and dishes out more damage.

The main ability of a healer is lasting out endurance fights, which, hopefully we will not face in forum-posts. All secondary abilities, like after combat healing and making sure people knocked out get back up rather than die (something many DM's avoid anyway), any character with acess to a few cure spells can provide.

As for the lesser restoration argument.. that mainly applies if you have partymembers that have self-draining abilities, for example the Hellfire warlock in 3.5 really likes a restoration buddy. Again, I dun see fights getting that deadly that quickly and if they do some positive energy conversion is not going to be enough, you need a dedicated healer that does more than simply restore hitpoints a plop.

you said it yourself. High level play.thats level 13+ btw, where almost all enemies gain spell like abilities, many of them AoE attacks and multiple resistances. we are at level 1, and thats a loooong way away from high level play. At our league, even a level 5 evoker with a few skeletons can be dangerous just because of fireball. Also you got it wrong with the dragon. you cancel that breathweapon, giving you at least 1 round of normal actions, and your party at least 2 turns worth of actions. In a party without a source of channel energy or other mass healing, you get either the option of making it a race of who's hitpoints reach 0 first, something i hate because its nothing any sane human being would do. Or many more actions will be spend on healing. like... the bard healing himself with a cure light wounds, and the fighter drinking that cure light wounds potion he got from cute lil' frog girl?

As for the restoration stuff: you most likely never had a gm that played the game as its meant to be. So many enemies have drain attacks, curses, poison. a simple con poison can kill you if you fail the initial save and keep spiraling down.
I might have offered a cleric myself, but Kingmaker is one of the few Paths that can be played with an large animal companion without problems, so i jumped at the chance. should Sacred  consider playing another path, then i might offer to change to cleric myself

[Roleplay Frog]

you most likely never had a gm that played the game as its meant to be.

You shouldn't make assumptions about my experience based on me disagreeing with you.
Also the term 'playing the game as it's ment to be' raises several red flags for me.
There's another way to negate a dragons breath weapon, which is killing it before it gets it off a second time or weakening it as Zaer described. I could go into a long winded rant of how the channel positive is also bad, because the rogue made their dex save vs the weapon and another character was resistant enough to sponge it up, so your character wastes an action that could be spent buffing or attacking to do some moderate healing, where a fighter could choose to imbibe a potion when they most direly need it.
BUT. I'm not of a mind to argue on about this, you seem rather set in your convictions and thats fine, however, if you do think a healer is that direly necessary, do play one and put your personal interests of playing an animal companion second? *shrug*

[Miroque]

I agree with Petrus in spirit. Many things cause stat damage, and there are many low level stat damage options availlable, like poisons with low DC. In higher level, poisons tend to lose their shine anyway.

BUT, I must say, healing by spells should be left after combat anyway, as most "resourses" spend to overcome said enemy, less damage is causes to the group.

And yes, in Kingmaker, there are downtimes, to craft stuff. And money to do so. SO CLW wands will be standard items on every casters belt at some point. Divine casters of course shine on this, as they do not need the skill rolls, but given that if used after combat, time is not really an issue to boost everyone back to shape. And ofcourse, there is the LEADERSHIP feat, that will be bread and butter of the campaign path.

Sure, on the lowlevels, parties need fast heal, maybe even combat healing, but "semihealers" will do just fine on that.


My current Kingmaker campaign that I run TT, we do not have single pure divine caster in the group and only 1 character has perished to direct damage.  Now, there is witch (and her coven) with Cauldron and Healing Hexes... and their never ending supply of healing potions...

[Petrus02]

I agree. there is no need to continue, we seem to have different opinions and thats completely fine.^^
Also the fact that its raising red flags for you is completely fine, its a poor wording from me. usually i take my time to correct something like that, but it seems my... convictions as you called them... got the better of me here.

I've played at least the first part of the adventure path once before, and thats why i submitted the hunter.I'd be completely fine with playing a cleric too, so if sacred allows a second submission i'll go an make one. But i cannot write all day long like today everyday, so it would take some time for me to do that.

[Roleplay Frog]

any things cause stat damage, and there are many low level stat damage options availlable, like poisons with low DC

and their never ending supply of healing potions...

Alchemists do get lesser restoration too, so froggo's good on the endless fixing upping of stats AND hitpoints. *nodnod*

In higher level, poisons tend to lose their shine anyway.

*flails* Kinda scared of that myself, at least the toxicant class level poison stays relevant, barring immunities. But then every debuff caster struggles with immunities. Exhausting poison is naughty.

if sacred allows a second submission i'll go an make one.

Well, you stand by your convictions so not judging. Though you seem clearly out-voted *shrugs* Having a healer sure is relieving, though if given the option of a second character (and geesh, I really feel I should start a pathfinder campaign, with all this interest ), I am so doing a giant-slayer Halfling for the funs.

[Chulanowa]

To address some things...

1. There's no need for a "dedicated healer" in Pathfinder. Especially in Kingmaker, where encounters are widely-spaced and there's no time limit. At lower levels, when you have 3 spells per day, using one of those spells to cure 1d8+1 damage is garbage compared to being able to completely knock out 4 HD worth of foes causing that damage. At higher levels, using lower-level spell slots to prepare healing magic is more tenable, but is still a luxury; addressing status conditions is a bigger issue. At the highest levels, it's just rocket tag, if you're taking enough damage to worry about it, you're going to die.

2. If there's going to be a secondary AP run, I'm game for Mummy's Mask, Iron Gods, and Shattered Star; happy with anything that isn't Strange Aeons or Hell's Vengeance though. ( I may want to make a different character based on AP though, since face / blaster not-a-goblin sorcerer might not work for all  )

3. Competing parties is a bad idea. Separating by alignment is also wobbly, though more doable. Honestly it might be good to just randomly assign parties, or settle on a theme; Literally any combination could work. The bigger trouble is managing the numbers. Our GM has three options here; three parties in a 4/4/5 arrangement, two parties in a 6/7 arrangement, or... he'll just have to weed out a few of us to go with a 4/4 or 5/5. As much as i'd like to play (and I know my weirdo is probably high on the chopping block list if so) I personally find the last option the better one; the GM chooses what he thinks suits best and is most manageable, rather than trying to cram everyone in.

[Roleplay Frog]

If there's a weeding out I might roll into DMing a pathfinder thingie of my own.

That said, perhaps should do a strawpoll or something to better gauge interest in what to do with the partying up and 'secondary campaign'. Must be hard to navigate all them posts.

[TheScarletBlade]

Alright before this goes off the rails, I think it's time for me to chime in here. Three groups of 554 is going to be the set up though I will most likely place a character of my own in that last party depending on what it needs to be successful. I'm still at work but since we seem pretty scattered on who's in what party I am gonna start slotting people in parties by class. We don't need to be all good or evil. Everyone here is an adult and can properly role play their characters without any engaging others in PvP.

We can do three different pathfinder or if 5 flexible people wanna switch paths then we can do another game. 5 makes it easier for everyone as I don't have to scale encounters at all. I've got the time and discipline to remain focused for my part.

Lastly, you're all doomed anyways, so why worry about healers?