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Author Topic: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting  (Read 9734 times)

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Online Regina MinxTopic starter

The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« on: February 15, 2018, 06:39:19 AM »
A teenager with an AR-15 machine gun killed 17 high school students and staff in a mass shooting in Florida.

I feel the need to quote David Frum.

"[D]espite the predictable recurrence of these crimes, Americans have developed a strong taboo against ever discussing or even thinking about them. When the killer strikes, it is 'too soon.' The next day, it is 'too late'; we have all moved onto the next topic. Then comes the next massacre, and it is 'too soon' all over again.

Like ancient villagers, Americans accept periodic plagues as a visitation from the gods, about which nothing can or should be done. The only permitted response is 'thoughts and prayers'—certainly never rational action to reduce casualties in future. Even to open the discussion as to whether something might not be done violates the taboos of decency: How dare you politicize this completely unpredictable and uncontrollable event! It is as if gun violence were inscrutable to the mind of man, utterly beyond human control.

The fact that such things do not happen anywhere else with anything approaching the same frequency—that too is the work of some ineffable mystery. Who can say why such things happen so seldom in Canada and Australia and Britain and Germany and France, and so often in the United States? Who would be rude enough even to wonder?

A few hours before the attack on the Alexandria playing field, a lower-income housing tower erupted in flames in London. At least six people lost their lives; 20 more remain in critical condition at latest report. In an interview conducted even as firefighters battled the blaze, the mayor of London said, 'There will be a great many questions over the coming days as to the cause of this tragedy and I want to reassure Londoners that we will get all the answers.' About fires, apparently, it is permitted to use human reason. But not about firearms! Against the much greater toll from those, the only remedy—the only approved response—is to send 'thoughts and prayers.'"

What I'm saying is that there's going to be lots of news stories. Lots of prayers and thoughts and bad feelings. But then things go on, and we won't change a fucking thing.

Online Lustful Bride

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2018, 06:57:23 AM »
It hurts to say it but I agree.

Even as a someone from a pro gun family who has her own favorite weapons and a lockbox near her bed, I have to agree that we have a serious problem. A glutton of people who don't give weapons the respect the deserve, treating them like toys instead of a tool to kill, and a horrible mental health system that abandons people or wraps them up in so much redtape they cannot get the aid they need.

It has created a vicious cycle that is only made worse by how divided both sides of the political spectrum can be on how much control the government should have. They should be compromising and working together but instead they take their ball and go home before plugging their ears and saying its the other sides fault.

I don't even know if it can be fixed. I want something to be done, but what? Do the politicians even know whats going on anymore? Or are they so detached in their ivory towers that our cries are like those of ants and they just go through the same motions of accusations, thoughts/prayers, and the blame game, like a ritual to keep us quiet while they keep putting their feet up and ignoring us and the problem. :/

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2018, 10:49:24 AM »
Also from an extremely pro-gun family, to the point where I suspect our red blood cells have the Second Amendment inscribed on their surface, and I can't even talk about these issues with anyone because they refuse to acknowledge the problem.

Every time, a shooting happens and gun nuts insist it's an "isolated tragedy" that shouldn't be used as an excuse to take away our rights. How many isolated tragedies need to happen before it isn't isolated anymore?

For that matter, how many pro-gun people do you know who can even quote the Second Amendment in its entirety? Everyone knows and loves the second half, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." But so rarely are they willing to mention the first half of that sentence. "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state"

Online Lustful Bride

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2018, 10:57:41 AM »
Also from an extremely pro-gun family, to the point where I suspect our red blood cells have the Second Amendment inscribed on their surface, and I can't even talk about these issues with anyone because they refuse to acknowledge the problem.

Every time, a shooting happens and gun nuts insist it's an "isolated tragedy" that shouldn't be used as an excuse to take away our rights. How many isolated tragedies need to happen before it isn't isolated anymore?

For that matter, how many pro-gun people do you know who can even quote the Second Amendment in its entirety? Everyone knows and loves the second half, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." But so rarely are they willing to mention the first half of that sentence. "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state"

I have wondered though, how would that work in the modern era? I know there is National Guard, then State Militia (which usually helps the NG during natural disasters) and then there are the more private militias...which tend to be the ones that act like they are looking for trouble half of the time.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2018, 11:15:32 AM »
I have wondered though, how would that work in the modern era? I know there is National Guard, then State Militia (which usually helps the NG during natural disasters) and then there are the more private militias...which tend to be the ones that act like they are looking for trouble half of the time.

That is a sticking point, particularly when anyone calling themselves a 'private militia' is 99% likely to be the redneck version of a gang, if not outright survivalist whacknuts. But I think acknowledging that the 2nd actually specifically mentions regulations is the necessary first step to fight the popular line the NRA spouts, insisting that the slightest hint of legislative compromise is the first step on the slippery slope towards Illuminati stormtroopers confiscating all our weapons.

Online Lustful Bride

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2018, 11:32:08 AM »
That is a sticking point, particularly when anyone calling themselves a 'private militia' is 99% likely to be the redneck version of a gang, if not outright survivalist whacknuts. But I think acknowledging that the 2nd actually specifically mentions regulations is the necessary first step to fight the popular line the NRA spouts, insisting that the slightest hint of legislative compromise is the first step on the slippery slope towards Illuminati stormtroopers confiscating all our weapons.
[/quote

I agree. Honestly I think I would be alright with joining the State Militia if they would have me.

Maybe in another universe out there, a system might work of average Joes and Janes being able to keep pistols and revolvers or other low caliber guns (.22s and such) but to get more one must be part of the State Militia or National Guard for proper authorization for anything beyond a hunting rifle.

Online Mithlomwen

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Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2018, 12:11:35 PM »
I've said this for a very long time, but the zero tolerance policy of school campuses has left the students and staff sitting ducks. 

When something like this happens, no one has any way to protect themselves or anyone else.  They have to hide and hope to God that the shooter doesn't find them until the police arrive.  Which, depending on circumstances, could take a long time. 

How many more people can the shooter kill in that time?  I think every school needs to have armed guards, who have permission to lethal force if necessary.  If potential shooters know the campus is protected by armed guards, they might think twice about trying it.  If there was someone who had a weapon, they could likely take the shooter out quickly and save many lives. 

Or....if not armed guards, then the staff needs to have access to weapons (with safeguards to make sure students couldn't access them), and be trained to use them, so in situations like these, they can save lives before the police arrive. 

 

Online Lustful Bride

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2018, 12:17:52 PM »
I've said this for a very long time, but the zero tolerance policy of school campuses has left the students and staff sitting ducks. 

When something like this happens, no one has any way to protect themselves or anyone else.  They have to hide and hope to God that the shooter doesn't find them until the police arrive.  Which, depending on circumstances, could take a long time. 

How many more people can the shooter kill in that time?  I think every school needs to have armed guards, who have permission to lethal force if necessary.  If potential shooters know the campus is protected by armed guards, they might think twice about trying it.  If there was someone who had a weapon, they could likely take the shooter out quickly and save many lives. 

Or....if not armed guards, then the staff needs to have access to weapons (with safeguards to make sure students couldn't access them), and be trained to use them, so in situations like these, they can save lives before the police arrive. 

Me and my father have actually had long discussions about gun safety (He was both police and military) and he many times has suggested much of this. One of his favorites would be a program for Cops who are getting close to retirement being assigned to protect schools as a cushy assignment before they go (and all that experience they have can make the school safer) Or something similar with soldiers in need of work being Security officers for schools.

Either one could easily deal with an armed attacker the moment the first shot rang out and would also help those who need work in these difficult times.

But of course that's just a dream since the government is just gonna boohoo for the cameras and then get back to doing nothing like they always do :/ . and its not like the government really cares about the soldiers beyond using them up and keeping them quiet.

Online Regina MinxTopic starter

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2018, 12:38:21 PM »
I've said this for a very long time, but the zero tolerance policy of school campuses has left the students and staff sitting ducks. 

When something like this happens, no one has any way to protect themselves or anyone else.  They have to hide and hope to God that the shooter doesn't find them until the police arrive.  Which, depending on circumstances, could take a long time. 

How many more people can the shooter kill in that time?  I think every school needs to have armed guards, who have permission to lethal force if necessary.  If potential shooters know the campus is protected by armed guards, they might think twice about trying it.  If there was someone who had a weapon, they could likely take the shooter out quickly and save many lives. 

There was an armed school resource officer on the campus at the time of the shooting.

Offline Avis habilis

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2018, 12:43:20 PM »
If there was someone who had a weapon, they could likely take the shooter out quickly and save many lives.

Except the failure rate for armed bystanders who aren't off-duty law enforcement or current/former military is hovering around 100%.

Plus there's a total of no evidence that "gun free zones" are targeted specifically because the people there are supposed to be unarmed.

Offline Aiden

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2018, 01:40:42 PM »
I've said this for a very long time, but the zero tolerance policy of school campuses has left the students and staff sitting ducks. 

When something like this happens, no one has any way to protect themselves or anyone else.  They have to hide and hope to God that the shooter doesn't find them until the police arrive.  Which, depending on circumstances, could take a long time. 

How many more people can the shooter kill in that time?  I think every school needs to have armed guards, who have permission to lethal force if necessary.  If potential shooters know the campus is protected by armed guards, they might think twice about trying it.  If there was someone who had a weapon, they could likely take the shooter out quickly and save many lives. 

Or....if not armed guards, then the staff needs to have access to weapons (with safeguards to make sure students couldn't access them), and be trained to use them, so in situations like these, they can save lives before the police arrive. 

 

This doesn't sound like a society I want to live in.

On that note, lets have armed guards everywhere. We are sitting ducks at the movies (shooting) malls (shooting) etc etc.


But who cares right? Not like anything is going to be done.

#Thoughts and Prayers #Seeaynextshooting

Online Lustful Bride

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2018, 01:47:43 PM »
This doesn't sound like a society I want to live in.

On that note, lets have armed guards everywhere. We are sitting ducks at the movies (shooting) malls (shooting) etc etc.


But who cares right? Not like anything is going to be done.

#Thoughts and Prayers #Seeaynextshooting

That's the eternal question though :/  Security Vs. Freedom.  And what if it isn't a shooting enxt time but a car attack? Or someone lobbing a pipebomb like what happened in New York a few months ago?

Online Regina MinxTopic starter

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2018, 01:53:38 PM »
And what if it isn't a shooting enxt time but a car attack?

God forbid we should regulate cars. Can you imagine requiring people to acquire licenses to operate cars, requiring cars to be inspected for safety before they could be sold, requiring periodic renewal of registration to operate a car in a public place? What anarchy would descend if we required those that would own cars to carry insurance to cover the people inadvertently hurt by cars? Can you imagine the tyrannical society we would live in if we stopped people who routinely operate their cars under the influence of drugs and alcohol no longer do so?

Offline Aiden

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2018, 01:58:22 PM »
God forbid we should regulate cars. Can you imagine requiring people to acquire licenses to operate cars, requiring cars to be inspected for safety before they could be sold, requiring periodic renewal of registration to operate a car in a public place? What anarchy would descend if we required those that would own cars to carry insurance to cover the people inadvertently hurt by cars? Can you imagine the tyrannical society we would live in if we stopped people who routinely operate their cars under the influence of drugs and alcohol no longer do so?


That's the eternal question though :/  Security Vs. Freedom.  And what if it isn't a shooting enxt time but a car attack? Or someone lobbing a pipebomb like what happened in New York a few months ago?

My sarcasm and disgust did not come through as intended.


Online Lustful Bride

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2018, 02:01:32 PM »
God forbid we should regulate cars. Can you imagine requiring people to acquire licenses to operate cars, requiring cars to be inspected for safety before they could be sold, requiring periodic renewal of registration to operate a car in a public place? What anarchy would descend if we required those that would own cars to carry insurance to cover the people inadvertently hurt by cars? Can you imagine the tyrannical society we would live in if we stopped people who routinely operate their cars under the influence of drugs and alcohol no longer do so?

That's not what I meant. And no need for the rudeness. I intended it to be more as "Should we just not have an increase in security?"

We live in a much more dangerous world where bombings and mass casualty incidents occur all the time somewhere in the world and there are people gleefully looking for any way to harm others for any reason. But then again even the cops have been fucking up a lot lately so..idk.


My sarcasm and disgust did not come through as intended.

No it did not.

Offline Oniya

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2018, 02:07:41 PM »
General note:  Sarcasm tends to fall flat in the absence of tonal cues and body language. 

Online Regina MinxTopic starter

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2018, 02:09:00 PM »
That's not what I meant. And no need for the rudeness. I intended it to be more as "Should we just not have an increase in security?"

We live in a much more dangerous world where bombings and mass casualty incidents occur all the time somewhere in the world and there are people gleefully looking for any way to harm others for any reason. But then again even the cops have been fucking up a lot lately so..idk.

No it did not.

I am sorry I was rude. My patience frays when teenagers are murdered en masse.

Online Lustful Bride

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2018, 02:11:42 PM »
I am sorry I was rude. My patience frays when teenagers are murdered en masse.

Then that anger should be focused more on the one who did the crime and those plugging their ears, rather than those trying to actually have a discussion and work out some compromise or bridge the gap between the two sides to help create talking points and work together.

Offline Valerian

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2018, 02:17:34 PM »
Except the failure rate for armed bystanders who aren't off-duty law enforcement or current/former military is hovering around 100%.

Plus there's a total of no evidence that "gun free zones" are targeted specifically because the people there are supposed to be unarmed.

It is true that in many cases, especially school shootings, the location is chosen because it represents something to the shooter, not because it has more or less security than any other public / crowded place.  In this instance, the shooter was a former student who had been expelled because of fighting and other violent incidents.

Online Regina MinxTopic starter

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2018, 02:21:22 PM »
Then that anger should be focused more on the one who did the crime and those plugging their ears, rather than those trying to actually have a discussion and work out some compromise or bridge the gap between the two sides to help create talking points and work together.

The apology was offered with sincerity. Further recriminations are not productive.

Online Lustful Bride

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2018, 02:25:49 PM »
The apology was offered with sincerity. Further recriminations are not productive.

I just got angry at feeling like my olive branch was spat on. But you are right. We just need to chill out. I am going to bow out and let myself cool off for a bit.

Online Mithlomwen

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Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2018, 02:26:30 PM »
This doesn't sound like a society I want to live in.

On that note, lets have armed guards everywhere. We are sitting ducks at the movies (shooting) malls (shooting) etc etc.

How would you suggest we go about protecting our country's school children then?






Offline Blythe

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2018, 02:38:06 PM »
I live in a state known for being near-fanatically devout to the idea of gun ownership, and the results are telling, frankly. And not in a good way.

I'd love to see better gun control, especially in the wake of terrifying, tragic, and awful school shootings like what happened in Florida at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High. Quite a few crimes (and suicides, sadly) are committed with firearms because of sheer availability.

Oftentimes the rebuttal I hear to this is "people would do these things anyway, with or without a gun!"

Which I don't believe to be true. Availability sharply affects these things. In fact, I think Australia was a rousing success in getting their firearm related crime and suicide rates to drop very substantially using gun buy-backs.

But I think for anything to be effective in the USA, it would need to come from a federal level and affect all states equally, otherwise people can just jump jurisdiction/state lines to get guns.  -_-
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 02:40:05 PM by Blythe »

Offline Ket

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2018, 03:10:09 PM »
How would you suggest we go about protecting our country's school children then?

For one, weapons like the AR-15 and legal modifications that can be made to it that make it nearly unrecognizable from the comparable automatic weapon (the military's M16) need to be completely and totally illegal. Thier manufacture needs to stop. Everyone who owns one currently needs to be somehow made to turn them in (buyback program, they do work). Such weaponry is not needed in the hands of the average citizen. These semi-automatic assault rifles are often easier to obtain than handguns.

Will it stop all the violence? No, sadly it won't. But it will help. Mass shootings are typically performed with AR-15s, though not always. However, their popularity has surged in the last decade. Removing the ability for people to possess these horrifying weapons is one step in the fight to lessen gun violence in our country.

Online Regina MinxTopic starter

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2018, 03:28:06 PM »
I just got angry at feeling like my olive branch was spat on. But you are right. We just need to chill out. I am going to bow out and let myself cool off for a bit.

I will do the same to cool down. Again, I apologize.