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Author Topic: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting  (Read 9053 times)

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Offline Blythe

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2018, 03:33:55 PM »
I just got angry at feeling like my olive branch was spat on. But you are right. We just need to chill out. I am going to bow out and let myself cool off for a bit.

I will do the same to cool down. Again, I apologize.

Just posting to say thank you to you both. This is a good example of things being a little heated but two folks resolving it in a mature & reasonable way, with people knowing when to step back to cool off as necessary. Thread topics like this one are never easy, emotionally, I know.

This sort of ability to self-moderate and return to civility, in topics like this, is greatly appreciated by the Staff.

Again, thank you both. :)

Offline Aiden

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2018, 04:38:12 PM »
Quote
We on DAY 2.

DAY 1: A Shell shocked police officer makes a vauge press conference. The one grainy cell phone video from inside the building plays on a loop, cut with helicopter footage of the evacuation and crying parents. President says how terrible this all is.

DAY 2: Killer's name is well known and all the fucked up stuff he says is on social media. They'll talk about him a lot, especially if he has any ties to anything spicy like race/racism or a political ideology. Interview with a guy who knew him. President announces visit. Soft focus memorials for the people who were killed usually with a focus on one with the saddest story. All the dead in a little grid of yearbook pictures.

DAY 3: Some democrat says we need gun control and some republican says that this is politicizing a tragedy. The President shakes hands with a 17 year old who was shot in the spine. Everybody agrees we need more mental health care.

DAY 4: Alex Jones points out that the first 9/11 call happened a minute before CNN says the shooting started. This is proof that none of it happened, that this is all about you and what you like and that you are so smart for being this right and they were all fake and it was never real.

DAY 5: The single issue hacks (prayer in schools, video games, ect) issue their press statements and one is usually ridiculous enough to end up with enough karma to be some where in the top 15 on /r/politics. The story drops to the second lead assuming they don't find anything out of the ordinary for a mass shooter.

DAY 6: NRA press conference about how the shooting could have been stopped if somebody had been right there at the exact time the gunman had started and understood exactly what was going on and was able to shoot and kill him before he was able to shoot anybody. This video goes viral and you share it with your friends on facebook assuming you are against gun control. A left leaning news anchor or congressman will give a speech about how this needs to be the last one and how we need "sensible" gun control. This clip goes viral and you share it on facebook assuming you are liberal.

DAY 7: Soft focus tribute to the resilience of the people of the city where the shooting happened. Story drops out of the news for a few months until the police investigation is complete the and they tell us everything we already knew.

Source

Offline Deamonbane

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Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2018, 05:48:32 PM »
Except the failure rate for armed bystanders who aren't off-duty law enforcement or current/former military is hovering around 100%.

Plus there's a total of no evidence that "gun free zones" are targeted specifically because the people there are supposed to be unarmed.

Didn’t the Denver shooter by pass one or two closer theater locations for the Kaunda free zone’ he settled on?

Don’t get me wrong, something must be done..

Just I know nothing will be...and that makes me sad and very depressed...

First it will be ‘too soon’ then it will be ‘reasoned debates and then it will be ‘business as normal, I have to get my 20 pieces of silver from the gun lobby’.

Online Lustful Bride

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2018, 06:02:10 PM »
Except the failure rate for armed bystanders who aren't off-duty law enforcement or current/former military is hovering around 100%.

I do recall a story of a woman who downed an adult school shooter some time ago with her own pistol.

Also the church shooter in texas ended up getting shot at and chased down by two gun owners as well. :/ Plus when people do use weapons to interfere, its usually against criminal acts, muggings, and etc. Not really active shooters sadly.

So I wouldn't say the failure rate is that bad...maybe more 80% and when it does happen its not always the way people wish it :/

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2018, 06:14:48 PM »
I do recall a story of a woman who downed an adult school shooter some time ago with her own pistol.

Also the church shooter in texas ended up getting shot at and chased down by two gun owners as well. :/ Plus when people do use weapons to interfere, its usually against criminal acts, muggings, and etc. Not really active shooters sadly.

So I wouldn't say the failure rate is that bad...maybe more 80% and when it does happen its not always the way people wish it :/

I wonder why we don’t hear about more of those. One of my buds in North Georgia told me of a suicide by cop where things went right. The principal, or vice, spotted the guy. Locked up an locked down the school, the teachers secured the class rooms, blocked out the windows and the cop came in fast and tried to talk him down till the guy drew down on him.

Online Lustful Bride

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2018, 06:22:42 PM »
I wonder why we don’t hear about more of those. One of my buds in North Georgia told me of a suicide by cop where things went right. The principal, or vice, spotted the guy. Locked up an locked down the school, the teachers secured the class rooms, blocked out the windows and the cop came in fast and tried to talk him down till the guy drew down on him.

That's because bad news sells much better than good news :/ There are many stories of heroism and good Samaritans who help out but rarely get national news, only local stuff.

Offline Avis habilis

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2018, 08:56:41 PM »
Didn’t the Denver shooter by pass one or two closer theater locations for the Kaunda free zone’ he settled on?

Because, I shit you not, he preferred the parking there. That's the whole reason.

Online Oniya

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2018, 09:22:05 PM »
Because, I shit you not, he preferred the parking there. That's the whole reason.

And it had doors he could lock.  Source

Offline marauder13

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Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2018, 10:06:31 PM »
I'm an Australian, and a son of an ex Drill Instructor in the Army.

When I was a kid of about 6 years old, I asked my father what he had in his hands one day when he was cleaning one of the rifles he owned. He told me, and I asked what it was for. "Shooting and killing things." From that day, I was taught how to handle a weapon properly and safely. I amazed many adults by knowing what to do when handed a firearm for the first time.

After Port Arthur, our politician's could move fast enough to pass legislation to provide tighter controls over firearms. Some of it was BS, like banning fully automatic weapons (which were already illegal) and semi automatic rifles (most out here with only 10 round magazines and were not designed to kill people), but there were damn good ideas too, like banning military grade weapons. Since then, we have had no mass shootings. The worst was where 2 people were killed in a cafe some years ago. Hell, it is a news item here if our police shoot someone. Shoot them, not kill them.

What needs to happen in the US is plain and simple.

1) Don't let violent offenders, mentally unstable, and suspected terrorists have access to weapons

2) Ban military grade/style/performance capability weapons from being legally owned by civilians.

For bonus points, treat firearms like cars. Register the firearms, license the user so that both are safe in the community.


Arming people in schools will not help that much. Because when you arm the schools, what next? Malls? Churches? Swimming pools? Beaches? Also, the one thing a lot of people forget as well is when there is someone on the scene, who is a citizen helping out by trying to take out the shooter, and the police turn up, how will they know who is the actual shooter, and who is the 'good guy with a gun'? In a high stress situation, it is hard enough to pin point the difference between and unarmed civilian and an armed civilian (aka the bad guy shooter), add multiple shooters, some good guys, others not, all I can see if police, and well intentioned civilians ending up dead.

Adding more guns to the situation will not make it safer. Reducing them, specifically the ones designed to kill a large number of people with the greatest efficiency, will be the only way to reduce the number of shooting deaths in the US. That, and far better education about what guns do to people.

I'm not an American, so I can't change anything that is happening over there. Which is why I am glad to live in a nation that doesn't have mass shootings ever other day.

My condolences go to the victims, their families, loved ones and friends.

Offline elone

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2018, 12:27:58 AM »
Everyone seems to have an opinion; let's have more guns, more police, better background checks, armed citizens, banning certain weapons, whatever.

The truth is that no one is going to do a damn thing, so we all better get used to kids and others being shot down in schools, churches, theaters, or on the streets, or anywhere else some nut job decides to kill people for whatever reason.

Me, I grew up with guns, was taught early how to use them correctly. I used to hunt, no more, and was in the military as a Provost Marshal's Investigator,  and carried a gun when needed. I have a squeaky clean record. If I decided tomorrow to go out an shoot people, how would that be prevented by any background check or anything else. People snap unpredictably.

The problem is there are literally hundreds of millions of guns in this country. How the hell are you going to police them. We can quit selling them and maybe in 100 years they will disappear. We can confiscate them all or have a buy back program. We can sell guns and ban ammunition. That would send the second amendment people up a tree. Sure you can have a gun, but you can't have bullets. I kind of like that one.

I am a bit jaded by all the handwringing and tears. Good luck. Our government is dysfunctional and they are the only ones with the authority to do anything, if something could be done..

Offline Ket

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2018, 12:43:14 AM »

The truth is that no one is going to do a damn thing, so we all better get used to kids and others being shot down in schools, churches, theaters, or on the streets, or anywhere else some nut job decides to kill people for whatever reason.



I will NEVER get used to other people being killed. No matter how it happens. I am as outraged by single murders as I am by mass murders. Asking people to get used to such horror and tragedy is part of the reason we're still having this discussion 20 years after Columbine.

Offline elone

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2018, 12:57:28 AM »
We are not having these tragedies because people are used to them, we are having them because outraged people sit on their asses in their living rooms, watching TV, playing with their computers or smart phones, or whatever, bemoaning the events, and doing nothing.

Offline Ket

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2018, 12:59:25 AM »
I didn't say they were happening because people are used to them. I said the mentality of being used to them is why nothing - on any avenue; mental health or gun regulation - has been done to curtail them.

Offline elone

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2018, 01:09:25 AM »
My point was, either get used to them or get active and do something. Apathy is never going to change a thing.

Offline MiraMirror

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2018, 01:51:04 AM »
1) Don't let violent offenders, mentally unstable, and suspected terrorists have access to weapons

Problem with that,  in my opinion,  is that a hell of a lot of the people who should be on the suspected terrorist lost,  aren't , either because they're not a minority,  or because they're not taken seriously UNTIL tragedy strikes.  Oftentimes, it's both.

Also,  the whole "mentally unstable/ill' thing is just a bad taste.   I don't know a single person who doesn't take some kind of medicine for something.   Physical,  mood, sicknesses, deficiencies,  stability... I'd hazard a guess that the majority of the U.S. population is on medicines for their health.   I'd also say that a lot of shooters have entirely too much "mental stability", seeing how they plan entire shootings.   They're just awful people.   Common issues that people have should NOT get to be used a crutch for people who think they have the right to take lives.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 02:32:01 AM by Oniya »

Offline MiraMirror

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2018, 01:51:51 AM »
Agh, I accidentally missed the first bracket in my post, apologies.

Online Oniya

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2018, 02:32:23 AM »
Agh, I accidentally missed the first bracket in my post, apologies.

Fixed it for you.  :-)

Online Lustful Bride

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2018, 04:30:17 AM »
Problem with that,  in my opinion,  is that a hell of a lot of the people who should be on the suspected terrorist lost,  aren't , either because they're not a minority,  or because they're not taken seriously UNTIL tragedy strikes.  Oftentimes, it's both.

Also,  the whole "mentally unstable/ill' thing is just a bad taste.   I don't know a single person who doesn't take some kind of medicine for something.   Physical,  mood, sicknesses, deficiencies,  stability... I'd hazard a guess that the majority of the U.S. population is on medicines for their health.   I'd also say that a lot of shooters have entirely too much "mental stability", seeing how they plan entire shootings.   They're just awful people.   Common issues that people have should NOT get to be used a crutch for people who think they have the right to take lives.

There is also the problem of definine what exactly counts as 'Mentally unstable/ill"  Is it just people who are shitczophrenic? Thsoe with mood disorders? What about those with developmental disorders? If someone has autism do they have less right to self defense (Even though statistically they tend ot be victimized more by others). What about those who are high functioning? Do they get a special pass? There are many questions, this isn't something that gets handled easily.

By what standard do we judge them if we start having special clauses that allow some to buy a weapon? Or are all of them stereotyped and thrown into the same category?

The problem is that this issue is very complex, and its another reason why the politicians would rather not do much about it, since its too much work for them.

Everyone seems to have an opinion; let's have more guns, more police, better background checks, armed citizens, banning certain weapons, whatever.

The truth is that no one is going to do a damn thing, so we all better get used to kids and others being shot down in schools, churches, theaters, or on the streets, or anywhere else some nut job decides to kill people for whatever reason.

Me, I grew up with guns, was taught early how to use them correctly. I used to hunt, no more, and was in the military as a Provost Marshal's Investigator,  and carried a gun when needed. I have a squeaky clean record. If I decided tomorrow to go out an shoot people, how would that be prevented by any background check or anything else. People snap unpredictably.

The problem is there are literally hundreds of millions of guns in this country. How the hell are you going to police them. We can quit selling them and maybe in 100 years they will disappear. We can confiscate them all or have a buy back program. We can sell guns and ban ammunition. That would send the second amendment people up a tree. Sure you can have a gun, but you can't have bullets. I kind of like that one.

I am a bit jaded by all the handwringing and tears. Good luck. Our government is dysfunctional and they are the only ones with the authority to do anything, if something could be done..

I would be find with bullet control to be honest.

There are a few problems to outright banning. Someone is going to see it as a growth market and turn to smuggling weapons into the country. We also have the issue of 3d printed guns being assembled in pieces and put together without means of being tracked.

Outright bans tend to make people want them more :/ Drugs, Alcohol, are good examples.

I think there is a way to solve this that, while it wont make everyone happy, it can satisfy both sides. But it can only be found through discussion, compromise and work. All three of which are such dirty words in American politics these days.

Online PrestaDGTation

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2018, 12:00:09 PM »
  Just my two cents.

  Banning bullets won't solve anything. I have several friends that case their own rounds. We'll wind up with a moonshiner situation where bootleg ammo becomes the norm, but is even less safe.

  I couldn't agree more with what's been said about mental health thus far.  It's a slippery slope if you start banning guns based entirely on mental criteria. In fact, some of the language the president has used made me fear that the mentally I'll are going to be the next demographic to get feel the Twitter Lashing of our nation's highest office.

  I never grew up around guns. I have friends that have them, but I have never owned any. But I always supported the second  amendment.  I do, however, have a lot of experience around mental illness and teachers. The system, both if terms of mental health and education counseling, needs some serious TLC.  That's what I would like to see happen.  And preferably without having to generate fear and suspicion about everyone. How you do that, I do not know.

  For the sake of argument, I'm going to repeat something one of these friends said. After showing me an array of pistols, rifles and what not, he brought me to a case and pulled out a full automatic assault rifle. I asked him, plainly.. why?  His response: "This one isn't for sport, hunting, or anything else. It's because I believe the spirit of the 2nd Amendment is that, if I have to, I can protect myself from the government. But to do that, I need a weapon at least as good as what they'll be using."  Not saying I agree, but for the sake of argument, I thought he made a good point.


Offline Avis habilis

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2018, 12:11:09 PM »
For the sake of argument, I'm going to repeat something one of these friends said. After showing me an array of pistols, rifles and what not, he brought me to a case and pulled out a full automatic assault rifle. I asked him, plainly.. why?  His response: "This one isn't for sport, hunting, or anything else. It's because I believe the spirit of the 2nd Amendment is that, if I have to, I can protect myself from the government. But to do that, I need a weapon at least as good as what they'll be using."  Not saying I agree, but for the sake of argument, I thought he made a good point.

That's at the very best a preposterous point, at the most likely a dishonest or delusional one.

A half dozen bros who have watched Red Dawn on repeat aren't going to take up their fully auto weapons - which, by the way, he's committing a felony by possessing - & fight off a national army equipped with everything from armored personnel carriers to bomber aircraft.

Online Oniya

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2018, 12:13:52 PM »
That's at the very best a preposterous point, at the most likely a dishonest or delusional one.

A half dozen bros who have watched Red Dawn on repeat aren't going to take up their fully auto weapons - which, by the way, he's committing a felony by possessing - & fight off a national army equipped with everything from armored personnel carriers to bomber aircraft.

Yep, if there was ever a situation where a militia tried to seriously take on the US Army, I think the USAF would be getting a call.

Online PrestaDGTation

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2018, 12:37:53 PM »
  Heh, fair enough!  And I should hasten to add how happy I was that he kept that particular case locked.

  Gun control always becomes a huge topic after these sorts of things. My problem is that I try to see the logic from every side, because I'm less afraid of being wrong than I am of being unable to understand. In that example, I can see others sharing his veiws, if not precisely his choices.

  I would be happy to have gun control that prevents 14 year olds with sketchy backgrounds from buying AR-15s.  Absolutely.  But i feel like that's an extreme, like saying children under 4 shouldn't smoke. When you get into rational levels of control, I can see where both sides can make a very emotional point.  And that makes it hard to find common, and consistent, ground.

Online Oniya

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #48 on: February 16, 2018, 12:46:35 PM »
  Heh, fair enough!  And I should hasten to add how happy I was that he kept that particular case locked.

Keeping it locked (and hopefully with all ammo in a separate, also locked, case) is simple gun safety.  I'm a little more unhappy with the fact that the other guns apparently weren't in locked cases.  It's like, you keep the prescriptions up on a high shelf, but you leave the bleach under the sink in an unlatched cabinet.  (Once you've been around a toddler, you realize where this can be a problem.)

Offline Serephino

Re: The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting
« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2018, 04:13:21 PM »
The whole thing is really disheartening to me.  As predicted, my email inbox is overflowing with petitions to get Congress to act in some way, shape, or form.  I delete them all because there is no point.  You won't hear me say this about any other cause.  I have always believed strongly that people should always fight.  Sign petitions, knock on doors, call your representatives, make donations.  Whatever it takes.  But on this I am sadly defeated.  I had a small glimmer of hope when Republican Congressman were shot at.  Since now they were the victims, maybe, just maybe it would get into their thick skulls that there is indeed a problem to be addressed.  That hope quickly died.  I wonder how much money it  took from the NRA to make that all better.

My roommate and I have had this conversation.  He's very pro gun.  He had a work friend who owns an AR-15, and is responsible with his firearms, and took S to the shooting range and let him shoot that gun and it was so awesome!  He strongly believes that responsible law abiding citizens have every right to take those guns to firing ranges and relieve a little stress.  He cited some European country that I can't remember the name of where like everybody has a gun and these things don't happen because even crazy people don't want to be fired back at.  Although, even he doesn't disagree that a little common sense and tighter background checks along with fewer loopholes would be a good idea.

I saw a thing on Facebook earlier.  Some lady was killed by her car sliding under a semi.  Those trucks now have guards to prevent that from happening again.  Some people were poisoned by tampered with Tylenol.  It now takes special equipment to get into a bottle of pills.  One dude tried to smuggle a bomb on a plane in his shoe.  Now at the airport they make you take off your shoes for inspection.  The point being anything else that threatens public safety is promptly taken care of.  But the fact that millions of people have been killed by guns..  All that can be done is thoughts and prayers!  We have to be warned that coffee is hot, but an AR-15 is fine...