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Author Topic: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**  (Read 3394 times)

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Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #100 on: January 28, 2018, 01:49:55 PM »
Does all of this bad stuff really hinge on Poe being kept out of the loop?

Hypothetically, if Holdo had decided to tell Poe about the plan, is there a sense that he would have behaved differently, or is the character portrayed such that he would have taken the same course of action but with the additional justification that he thought the plan would be ineffective and he could formulate a better response to the First Order?
I'm still going with no. Poe disobeyed a direct order and cost the lives of those under his command, and just as important, he cost the Rebellion their only shot at being able to fight back against the kind of firepower that they knew they would be up against later. While his being a lovable rogue and being quite competent on his own allows him to get away with a lot, he was participating in a coordinated assault plan, and he should have stuck to it. Leia and Holdo were both in the right in putting him in the dog house and demanding that he do what they demand of any other participant in the rebellion, and follow orders without having to know the entirety of the plan. It was need to know, and he didn't.

Offline Cold Heritage

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #101 on: January 28, 2018, 02:03:27 PM »
I'm still going with no. Poe disobeyed a direct order and cost the lives of those under his command, and just as important, he cost the Rebellion their only shot at being able to fight back against the kind of firepower that they knew they would be up against later. While his being a lovable rogue and being quite competent on his own allows him to get away with a lot, he was participating in a coordinated assault plan, and he should have stuck to it. Leia and Holdo were both in the right in putting him in the dog house and demanding that he do what they demand of any other participant in the rebellion, and follow orders without having to know the entirety of the plan. It was need to know, and he didn't.

Well, that really makes him an unlikeable character if he'd do the same thing, knowing the plan or not knowing the plan.

Offline greenknight

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Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #102 on: January 28, 2018, 09:22:58 PM »
It was need to know, and he didn't.
This is a symptom of the whole problem with Resistance command. Poe does have a need to know, at least some portions. He understands intelligence operations. He knows the fleet is being tracked, he knows that Holdo knows, and he knows Holdo isn't doing anything about it besides running until fuel runs out (the last part being the deception plan). As far as Poe is concerned, something's rotten in Denmark (I suspected Holdo might be a double agent given the way Rian Johnson framed the story) and he has a responsibility to save the fleet. Everything he does that bollocks up the deception plan derives from this.

Holdo didn't do herself any favors by popping a fanboy's bubble when they first met (notwithstanding, of course, his strategic blunder to achieve a tactical objective, a common Rebellion/Resistance trait). I took away that Holdo made her bones by being a brawler like Poe and that she had since learned the control and finesse Leia was trying to cultivate in Poe. (You can't just jump in a starfighter and blow something up.) He was her past she was embarrassed by.* I read her as seeing him in the pejorative definition of a tool and his opinion (based mostly on hurt feelings when an idol wasn't exactly as he wanted) quickly matched suit.

No one comes off well in this exchange. The Resistance, especially Holdo after Leia's incapacitation, is not able to effect unity of effort. To their detriment, this confounds Leia's plans to husband Resistance resources (she, at least, finally seems to be dabbling in the Washington/Ho school rather than Lee). Holdo's on board with this but can't effectively communicate the plan to key actors. And that drives perceptions that support Poe's narrative and and allow him to use his personal relationships to mutiny. If the plan was more complete and better communicated, you can mitigate the Poe effect, both personally and with the troops who would otherwise accept his narrative.

And in the end, what does Holdo finally do? She jumps in a starfightercruiser and blows something up.



*Not that I've ever seen that among people I know, nope, never, nuh-uh.

Offline Cold Heritage

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #103 on: January 28, 2018, 11:44:15 PM »
That's some insightful stuff, greenknight.

Online Regina Minx

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #104 on: January 29, 2018, 08:25:50 AM »
This is a symptom of the whole problem with Resistance command. Poe does have a need to know, at least some portions.

I don't agree with this. But let's say we grant it for the sake of argument. Hunger Games and Breathes-in-Space should have told Poe some portions of their plan.

Poe still withholds vital information from his commanding officers and mutinies. This is a little bit more severe than taking operational security a little too far.

Offline Yvellakitsune

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #105 on: January 29, 2018, 09:07:54 AM »
Greenknight,
   I know you are trying to justify Poe's narrative.  Look at Holdo's.  Holdo didn't know him from a hole in the wall before he confronted her.  All Holdo knew of him was that he was demoted from Commander (O4ish in US Military ranks) to Captain (to O2ish) for disobeying orders.  He was now just a fighter jockey without a fighter because the hangar was destroyed.  His job, as he was told, was to sit down and enjoy the ride.  He didn't have a specific role in the current plan.  So he had no need to know, since he likely wasn't even a squadron commander anymore.  Add in the fact that Holdo didn't know how they were being tracked (Poe could have told her and choose not to), there very well could be an insider threat, so she likely only witted people who had supervision in the plan.  Others were only told their specific task. 

   Poe's reaction when his bubble got popped probably just reinforced her suspicions of him. 

   The people fueling the cloaked shuttles probably didn't know, all they knew were to refuel the shuttles and board them (ie: their role in the plan).  Passengers (like Poe at this point) were likely only told to board the shuttles and only when it was time to minimize leakage.  The bridge crew was likely the only ones who knew the whole plan because she had a direct supervision of them. 

    To Holdo, Poe had no real relevance to the mission without a fighter to jockey and she had never worked with him before.  And even then, after the demotion it probably would have been the new commander that was witted, not him, if there were fighters left.   

    I still say Poe was wrong and at fault.  Even if he didn't agree with what he deluded himself to believe the plan to be, he choose not to share information that was vital to intelligence (which doesn't support the idea that he understands intelligence operations).  That was his opportunity to try and rebuild any trust, and he choose not to.   

Offline greenknight

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Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #106 on: January 29, 2018, 09:42:02 AM »
I don't agree with this. But let's say we grant it for the sake of argument. Hunger Games and Breathes-in-Space should have told Poe some portions of their plan.

Poe still withholds vital information from his commanding officers and mutinies. This is a little bit more severe than taking operational security a little too far.
Without access to the plan, Poe (and I based on Johnson's framing) suspected  that Holdo was a First Order agent trying to wipe out the fleet. Leia being incapacitated by this point, why would he report what he knew to her? As far as he could tell, he was the senior, capable officer still loyal to the Resistance.

YK:

Commander in SW has never been a defined grade. Everyone in command is referred to as commander, much like captain and Commodore in the Navy or commander in the other three services. Luke was a commander in the Rebellion era, I've been a commander at multiple grades.. Poe commanded a multi-platform air raid, and because he wasn't a General and Colonel's are named and under Commander's control in the Rebellion era, this implies Commander is a positional title, like a carrier's CAG. This would imply his demotion from Commander to Captain may not even be a loss of grade but just being fired from position. In the US Navy, a fired CAG is still a Captain. And we see no indication of separate definitions of a ground and naval Captain as all Captains we encounter in on screen are either ship commanders or the senior officer of a royal bodyguard.

Holdo's bridge crew didn't even know the plan, not that they needed to. If they did, they wouldn't have joined Poe's mutiny.

I'm not trying to absolve Poe of fault. Poe operated within the norms of the Rebellion/Resistance. Holdo was a terrible commander; she could not articulate her plans, could not generate buy-in for them, and could not effect unified action. If she could, Poe's mutiny would have gone nowhere. He would either be outright denied by his recruit prospects or reported and arrested. Poe is symptom of the Resistance's dysfunction and dropping all fault on him does both him and them a disservice. Everything becomes about one bad actor and the organization never learns and repeats the same scenario over and over again.

Online Regina Minx

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #107 on: January 29, 2018, 09:47:18 AM »
Without access to the plan, Poe (and I based on Johnson's framing) suspected  that Holdo was a First Order agent trying to wipe out the fleet. Leia being incapacitated by this point, why would he report what he knew to her? As far as he could tell, he was the senior, capable officer still loyal to the Resistance.

When Finn and Rose came to him with the revelation about the FO's tracking capabilities, his stated rationale for not telling Hunger Games was that she wouldn't approve of a mission to recruit a hacker to disable it. Not that she was an FO agent. The prospect of Hunger Games being a turncoat was never stated or implied.

Offline Yvellakitsune

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #108 on: January 30, 2018, 10:22:44 AM »
Quote
When Finn and Rose came to him with the revelation about the FO's tracking capabilities, his stated rationale for not telling Hunger Games was that she wouldn't approve of a mission to recruit a hacker to disable it. Not that she was an FO agent. The prospect of Hunger Games being a turncoat was never stated or implied.

I thought the same thing and was trying to look up if there was a fan theory about it or something.  From the movie, it just appeared he didn’t like Holdo or her plan.

@Greenknight, I too have had the title of “commander” in my career, but if we look at the cannon lore, commander is a rank.  It goes: lieutenant, captain, major, commander, colonel, and general.  http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rebel_command_insignia

I know we disagree on it.  Having worked specifically in military deception and levels of access to them, I can completely see why he was not witted.  Poe was simply a passenger at that point, a demoted pilot without a fighter.  He takes up a seat in the plan, and that’s it. Holdo has no reason whatsoever to read him in on it, and a big part of it was he demonstrated himself to be unreliable. 

I’ve already said in my opinion, he should have been entirely removed from any authority after the bomber incident alone and Leia has some fault there.

@Demonbane,
   You mentioned for morale purposes he should be kept on.  I’m not sure on that.  If it is known he is the reason 90% of them were killed, he would be a morale killer.  Just look at Rose.  Imagine how things might have gone when Finn introduced Rose to Poe if she knew Poe disobeyed orders that resulted in her sister’s death.  I could see the stun baton coming out again, and again, and again. 


Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #109 on: January 30, 2018, 03:08:14 PM »
To change subjects,

I have been mulling over Snoke's death and I truly cannot help but realize how much it hurt his character. 

While yes it had some shock value to it, but what else can we say about Supreme Leader Snoke?

Ruler of a military empire. Disfigured. Turned a heir to the Skywalker lineage to the Dark Side. Then get taken out by said apprentice in true Sith fashion of striking the master down?

Does it sound like we already had this for a big bad in the Star Wars Franchise?

All the movies did was make Snoke, a less interesting Darth Sidious Mark II.  Granted I know Vader was always the more obvious villain whether you watch him in the original trilogy or was eager to watch his fall into the Sith Lord. However Palpatine's shadow was always cast over the galaxy, even when we didn't see him for most of the original trilogy. I'll never forget when I first saw him execute Order 66 and wipe out most of the Jedi Order in a single swoop to the point Yoda was in physical pain.

Palpatine was a bit hammy with his acting (UNLIMITED POWER!!!!!!!!) but you can't help but think how cunning the man was to set a plan in motion that took decades to pull off. He was the entire reason why their was conflict in the first six movies.


I won't be surprised if we get some books, a movie, or tv show that further details Snoke, but he just feels too much like a rehash of Palpatine. Especially when there have been many many evils in the Star Wars universe that could have been substituted.

Like maybe Exar Kun for example? Those who heard about this guy will agree with me when I say he was something else. 

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #110 on: January 30, 2018, 03:33:05 PM »
This is a symptom of the whole problem with Resistance command. Poe does have a need to know, at least some portions. He understands intelligence operations. He knows the fleet is being tracked, he knows that Holdo knows, and he knows Holdo isn't doing anything about it besides running until fuel runs out (the last part being the deception plan). As far as Poe is concerned, something's rotten in Denmark (I suspected Holdo might be a double agent given the way Rian Johnson framed the story) and he has a responsibility to save the fleet. Everything he does that bollocks up the deception plan derives from this.

Holdo didn't do herself any favors by popping a fanboy's bubble when they first met (notwithstanding, of course, his strategic blunder to achieve a tactical objective, a common Rebellion/Resistance trait). I took away that Holdo made her bones by being a brawler like Poe and that she had since learned the control and finesse Leia was trying to cultivate in Poe. (You can't just jump in a starfighter and blow something up.) He was her past she was embarrassed by.* I read her as seeing him in the pejorative definition of a tool and his opinion (based mostly on hurt feelings when an idol wasn't exactly as he wanted) quickly matched suit.

No one comes off well in this exchange. The Resistance, especially Holdo after Leia's incapacitation, is not able to effect unity of effort. To their detriment, this confounds Leia's plans to husband Resistance resources (she, at least, finally seems to be dabbling in the Washington/Ho school rather than Lee). Holdo's on board with this but can't effectively communicate the plan to key actors. And that drives perceptions that support Poe's narrative and and allow him to use his personal relationships to mutiny. If the plan was more complete and better communicated, you can mitigate the Poe effect, both personally and with the troops who would otherwise accept his narrative.

And in the end, what does Holdo finally do? She jumps in a starfightercruiser and blows something up.



*Not that I've ever seen that among people I know, nope, never, nuh-uh.
I can actually agree with most of this, but it does exemplify the kind of stress that they are working under. Holdo (or Hunger Games, as Regina so enjoys using) had the command of the escape attempt thrust upon her. She wasn't prepared for that kind of command, so her first action (a bad decision) was to uphold Leia's (Breathes-in-space) last command, which is to keep Poe in the doghouse for a while, at least until they are all in a place where they can deal with Poe's actions with cool heads.

Her bad decision led Poe to making another bad decision, which all seems very likely under the circumstances. Both were decisions made under pressure and were just as likely to end badly as well, if not more so. While it doesn't follow a good narrative for a film, it does make for solid character building; Realistic choices with very real consequences.

As for CN616's point... I think I agree as well. They were building up a character that's more powerful than anything that we've seen in the franchise (a top dog to the Rey's Underdog), and while the bamboozled death wasn't entirely unrealistic (Palpatine's killing of Plageis in his sleep was hardly fair) it did undercut the narrative that was being built around him. I think/hope that this isn't the last word on Snoke, but if it is, I will be sorely disappointed as a fan.

Offline greenknight

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Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #111 on: January 30, 2018, 06:23:11 PM »
@Greenknight, I too have had the title of “commander” in my career, but if we look at the cannon lore, commander is a rank.  It goes: lieutenant, captain, major, commander, colonel, and general.  http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rebel_command_insignia
If that site's to be taken as gospel, the Resistance assigned a mid-level officer as Air Mission Commander for both the Starkiller Base raid and the Dreadnought raid. It also says that naval Captains are equivalent in grade to Generals (CAPT Antilles of the Tantive IV wore five blue pips).

Poe Dameron operated within the norms of his organization. Who authorized Rogue One's mission? This is a military organization that would let an officer take off for who knows how long on a religious quest and authorize non-specialists to conduct PR missions. Fault does not rest solely with him.

Offline Yvellakitsune

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #112 on: January 30, 2018, 10:36:28 PM »
Quote
I think/hope that this isn't the last word on Snoke, but if it is, I will be sorely disappointed as a fan.

Snoke....  I agree there 100%.  Even if they did want to use him as a background piece, they could have used his death to go in a more radical direction.

A idea I had from the Snoke death, if Rey said ‘Yes’ to Kylo, and they try to unite the galaxy together in a more balanced manner than Sith/Jedi dichotomy (more along the lines of Bendu for those who follow it).  The First Order could split (Hux has a fit and leaves), and now three factions struggle for control.  Kylo and Rey try to walk a line, Hux’s faction and the Rebellion still battle.  Rey may not seem so Mary Sue facing galactic challenges and might show some faults.

  But that was just some of us talking after seeing the movie and being underwhelmed by the story taken. 

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #113 on: February 02, 2018, 05:32:14 PM »
Essentially Palpatine was a background piece, you don't hear much of him in a New Hope. Yet when you learn Darth Vader is his subordinate, that makes you think "OH SH*T, this guy must be one bad mother trucker to make Vader kneel to a hologram projection of himself." As a little kid who first watched Return of the Jedi, I thought he was creepy while he kept gloating Luke during the Battle of Endor. Then lets count in the fact he threw Sith Lightning (the first time we the fans are introduced to this) you think he has to be really strong.

Yes him being thrown down an elevator shaft was a bit cheap for someone so sinister as the emperor, but its overlooked because its also the first time we see a Sith turn good again. Watching as Vader saves his son and return to the light side.

Was Snoke even a Sith Lord? How did he corrupt Kylo Ren? Was the Knights of Ren his devoted servants? We get nothing on him from the moment he shows up to the moment he's gone. Just "He's in charge of the Empire MK II and a disfigured Force User like that other guy who screamed Unlimited Power!!!".

I give the Last Jedi props for showing Kylo Ren killed him to just be free of Snoke instead of turning good. I just wish they did something more different than that. They could have used so many other inspirations instead.

If anyone here played the old Xbox Knights of the Old Republic Games, you get a fun surprise with the big villain known as Darth Revan.

I feel like the Last Jedi suffers issues because of the Force Awakens. It tried to do things different but where the Force Awakens stuck with the familiar, it was heavily restricted in plot directions.

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #114 on: February 02, 2018, 09:05:03 PM »
Quote
I won't be surprised if we get some books, a movie, or tv show that further details Snoke, but he just feels too much like a rehash of Palpatine. Especially when there have been many many evils in the Star Wars universe that could have been substituted.

Snoke is a rehash of Palpatine.  If anything, Star Wars itself (A New Hope, that is, as well as the entire franchise, really) is a rehash of old sci-fi and adventure tropes with a good dash of Akira Kurosawa and Westerns thrown in.  I think, once it went from a single movie to a franchise, especially the Expanded Universe...it has been trying to catch lightning in a bottle and get the feel of the first two films back.  It won't.  No franchise or series in fiction has ever done this.

Star Wars was, I think, for Lucas, a feel-good romp through his childhood loves, mixed with a clever understanding of the monomyth as presented to him by Joseph Campbell.  Lucas was able to present his own personal happy-makers within a medium that appealed to a massively broad range of people, and that is why it was so successful.  Once Star Wars was no longer a one-off, but world-built into its own broad setting, it stopped being just a fun stand-alone film.  Lucas did indeed catch lightning in a bottle with the success of Empire Strikes Back, but anyone who knows film history can see how rare it is for a mega-hit film to have an even bigger mega-hit sequel.

Star Wars, for me, is and always will be entertainment.  I can't delve deeply into its backstory--literally so, with the Expanded Universe being de-canonized.  I've never looked at it as the epitome of artistic or deep fiction, either, like I can with The Lord of the Rings, The Foundation Series, or The Earthsea Trilogy.  I've seen The Last Jedi more than once.  It's flawed.  It has glaring issues.  But it's fun, for fuck's sake.  Because I go into Star Wars films not expecting art films or deep messages, I don't have an excessive bar for it to meet.  I feel the same about other films that I loved, even though they are flawed.  Highlander, for example.  The dialogue was poor, the special effects sucked, the pacing was so-so...but I loved it.  Maybe it helped that Queen did the soundtrack, but the storyline itself was compelling.  I've always wished someone would remake it, with a reworked plot, better casting, and modern special effects...but the original made me happy.  I feel the same about every Star Wars movie, too.  I was disappointed with the pacing and dialogue in the Star Wars Prequels, but I still had fun watching them.  The big picture was more important to me than individual problems.  It's the same with episodes 7 and 8.

Honestly, there are scores of amazing science fiction novels out there that would make beautiful movies, in the right hands.  I think more about those being made, than a new Star Wars film coming out that is on par with A New Hope or Empire Strikes Back.  My happy memories of seeing the first Star Wars film in a drive-in theater as an 8 year old are just that--memories.  I don't expect it to be equalled or surpassed.  I'm not that kid anymore, and I'm too old and experienced for such an experience to happen to me again.  Well, that's not entirely true--when I watched it with my son for the first time when he was young, it was a very vicarious experience. I enjoyed it like a kid again with him there.  That's the closest I will get to that original feeling.  And that's perfectly fine with me.

Offline Quick Ben

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #115 on: February 17, 2018, 05:43:25 PM »
The more I think about this movie, the less I like it. Utterly disappointed by this one, but that's just one man's opinion.

Lots to agree with the post above mine!

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #116 on: February 17, 2018, 06:03:34 PM »
I am curious how these Star Wars movies with Game of Thrones people involved will work out.

Offline Quick Ben

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #117 on: February 18, 2018, 12:15:15 AM »
I'm worried about it just becoming a cash cow, which it already is. But with those two working on some films gives me some glimpse of hope!

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #118 on: February 21, 2018, 09:56:45 PM »
Meh, Star Wars was a huge cash cow when Lucas owned it.  Disney milking it isn't anything new, really.

Offline Life in Color

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Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #119 on: February 22, 2018, 08:37:04 PM »
Porg liiiiiiiife.

<3!