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Author Topic: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**  (Read 3102 times)

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Offline Cold Heritage

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #50 on: December 18, 2017, 11:07:53 PM »
Most adventure/quest stories are best when the protagonist is an everyman (or woman): Harry Potter, Wizard of Oz, Luke Skywalker.  Throw in the orphan archetype, and you have no familial obligations to hold them down from heading off into the big blue and making something of themselves.

Sure, Rey is overpowered, but again, what do you call Harry being able to fly a broom from day one like a boss?  Or Luke, with a handful of hours trained by Obi-Wan, sending two proton torpedoes at a 90 degree angle into a six foot hole?  Or a completely untrained Anakin winning a pod race and blowing up a droid command ship?  Shit, Indiana Jones is one giant Marty Stu, not to mention Captain Kirk.  it works for the genre.  Sometimes it works in reverse: see Big Trouble In Little China and Jack Burton.

A fair point, but Superman III and IV sucked and it wasn't because Big Blue's only weakness was green rocks. And I say that as someone who likes Superman. I'm not sure if it was in this thread or the other one where someone made a point about how a franchise like Star Wars having such heavy cultural cache and investment from so many that there's all of these disparate and irreconcilable expectations, but I think for Rey the execution just didn't work for a lot of people and her being overpowered just didn't work for them in the way it worked with any of the characters you mention.

Although I'd put money that people hated Anakin and people only remember kid Anakin for memes about things being or not being pod-racing, and for angsty teen Anakin for memes about him being a creeper to Padme and hating sand.

Someday, I want to see a droid in Star Wars be force sensitive or a force user.  I read two science fiction novels by Isaac Asimov (Robots of Dawn and Robots and Empire) where one robot character, by random chance during his construction, was given mental powers.  Asimov really hit the concept hard (it was one of his favorites) about artificial intelligence, once self-aware, being granted human rights.  I can imagine a future Star Wars movie revealing that R2-D2 is a force user, and has been helping the good guys win here and there, silently, in his own humble way.

There was a comic that had an R2 type robot who could use the Force. It didn't amount to much, if memory serves - I think Luke's uncle was going to buy that particular unit instead of R2-D2 and it used the Force to work things so that Luke's uncle bought R2-D2 and C3-P0 instead. But the page made it out that this was important and if Luke's uncle had bought the Force using R2 Bad Things would have happened.

Offline WindFish

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2017, 04:01:11 PM »
I eye-rolled so hard that I think I saw the back of my brain.

https://www.cnet.com/news/angry-fans-petition-erase-last-jedi-star-wars-canon/?ftag=COS-05-10aaa0g&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=5a3902c700bd470007d207ae&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

The entitlement is strong with these ones.

Most adventure/quest stories are best when the protagonist is an everyman (or woman): Harry Potter, Wizard of Oz, Luke Skywalker.  Throw in the orphan archetype, and you have no familial obligations to hold them down from heading off into the big blue and making something of themselves.

Sure, Rey is overpowered, but again, what do you call Harry being able to fly a broom from day one like a boss?  Or Luke, with a handful of hours trained by Obi-Wan, sending two proton torpedoes at a 90 degree angle into a six foot hole?  Or a completely untrained Anakin winning a pod race and blowing up a droid command ship?  Shit, Indiana Jones is one giant Marty Stu, not to mention Captain Kirk.  it works for the genre.  Sometimes it works in reverse: see Big Trouble In Little China and Jack Burton.

This is why I tend to ignore the arguments that say "x character is a Mary Sue/Stu". You could say that for nearly every protagonist in the fantasy/sci-fi/action genres. Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker, Anakin Skywalker, Aragorn, Indiana Jones, Captain Kirk, John McClaine etc all follow the same trope and nobody complains about them. It's always the characters around them that are much more interesting.

Rey does need more development, but by no means does she reach Bella Swan territory. *shudders from Twilight flashbacks*

Offline TwilightJesterTopic starter

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2017, 05:56:22 PM »
So i finally just saw the movie. I still don't understand all the hate im seeing with this movie. I thought it was a great addition.
I loved that they kept puppet Yoda first off! It gave me a nostalgic vibe. I didn't feel like it was tacky like people are saying.
every scene with Carrie phisher made me emotional. ((okay the whole movie made me emotional))
Uh and the fucking Reylo in this movie was strong holy shit!! I love that she dosn't have famous parents and she comes to grips with the fact that they just left her. I loved how they kind of explored dark Rey a bit. We know its not going to be a thing, but it was interesting. As much as i love Kylo Ren i see him dying in the next movie...i don't see this character getting a redemption arc. Its kind of an important message to people. You can't save everyone. Im still processing the movie ill have a more constructed opinion in a little while , but A fucking plus in my books.

Offline Nostalgia

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2017, 07:31:00 PM »
I eye-rolled so hard that I think I saw the back of my brain.

https://www.cnet.com/news/angry-fans-petition-erase-last-jedi-star-wars-canon/?ftag=COS-05-10aaa0g&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=5a3902c700bd470007d207ae&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

The entitlement is strong with these ones.

This is why I tend to ignore the arguments that say "x character is a Mary Sue/Stu". You could say that for nearly every protagonist in the fantasy/sci-fi/action genres. Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker, Anakin Skywalker, Aragorn, Indiana Jones, Captain Kirk, John McClaine etc all follow the same trope and nobody complains about them. It's always the characters around them that are much more interesting.

Rey does need more development, but by no means does she reach Bella Swan territory. *shudders from Twilight flashbacks*

Harry, Luke, Anakin, Indy, (arguably Kirk) and McClane get pwned throughout their movies. They're impulsive, whiny, SUPER whiny, not as good at fighting as the guys around them. They do the right thing anyway. It makes us like them.

And Aragorn isn't the main character of LOTR, Frodo is, and again, he gets pwned.  8-)

Rey is a Sue in 7 but they introduce a little conflict for her in 8. It's fine.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 07:32:39 PM by Nostalgia »

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2017, 11:19:21 PM »
Rey is a Mary Sue in 7, except when Kylo blocks her blaster fire.  And paralyzes her.  And stuns her into unconsciousness.  She gets some back when she reads his mind a la Harry doing the same to Snape in Half-Blood Prince, then owns him once she lets the Force in at the end.

Anakin and Luke, yeah, super-whiny.  Must be a Skywalker thing.  Harry...I hear him complain in parts, but being raised by abusive relatives and thrust into deadly events as a pre-teen and teen--I think he kinda deserved his complaining.  Indy, Kirk, and MacLaine I don't remember whining at all.  Maybe it had more to do with them being mature adults rather than teens or young adults.  Book Aragorn is kind of an anti-whiner.  Movie Aragorn...meh...I didn't like him refusing his destiny to be king, but I understand the reason behind the change to his personality for the big screen.

I still think Rey is at the least a borderline Mary Sue, but it doesn't mess up the films for me.  Space Opera is space opera.  Barbarella was a Mary Sue, too.  Sometimes Mary Sues can be pretty entertaining.

Offline wander

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Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #55 on: December 20, 2017, 10:54:49 AM »
Barbarella was pulled out of the japes she got into by other characters 100% of the time. She effectively did nothing on her own in her own movie.

Offline Nostalgia

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2017, 06:32:52 PM »
Rey is a Mary Sue in 7, except when Kylo blocks her blaster fire.  And paralyzes her.  And stuns her into unconsciousness.  She gets some back when she reads his mind a la Harry doing the same to Snape in Half-Blood Prince, then owns him once she lets the Force in at the end.

Anakin and Luke, yeah, super-whiny.  Must be a Skywalker thing.  Harry...I hear him complain in parts, but being raised by abusive relatives and thrust into deadly events as a pre-teen and teen--I think he kinda deserved his complaining.  Indy, Kirk, and MacLaine I don't remember whining at all.  Maybe it had more to do with them being mature adults rather than teens or young adults.  Book Aragorn is kind of an anti-whiner.  Movie Aragorn...meh...I didn't like him refusing his destiny to be king, but I understand the reason behind the change to his personality for the big screen.

I still think Rey is at the least a borderline Mary Sue, but it doesn't mess up the films for me.  Space Opera is space opera.  Barbarella was a Mary Sue, too.  Sometimes Mary Sues can be pretty entertaining.

No no no. Kylo and Rey aren't presented to be on the same level of training and experience, and Kylo is the villain. He's supposed to have the upper hand. Like, Luke is not supposed to go blow for blow with Darth Vader right off the top. That's BAD STORYTELLING y'all. Harry Potter makes dumb choices. Luke and Anakin and Aragorn are emotionally immature. John McClaine is mentally tough but facing incredible odds. There are B-movies with badass guys that kill 100 people and get the girl but those are BEE MOVIES. This is STAR WARS, the expectations for a main character are HIGHER.

Rey (in episode 7) does not have ANY real character flaws we can grab onto, and she's not a foil for someone else, and outside of being poor and being a girl there's not a lot to sympathize with. It's bad writing, but we agree writing doesn't have to be a binary GOOD or BAD thing.

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #57 on: December 22, 2017, 10:34:10 PM »
Well, I know I would have taken a different tack than the writers for 7 and 8, but no one's beating down my door to write a Star Wars script :P  I guess I'll have to wait for someone to take me up on my Old Republic plot idea here on Elliquiy...

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #58 on: December 24, 2017, 09:09:41 PM »
My biggest issue hasn't been with Rey.

Its Amilyn Holdo, the Vice Admiral who took over after Leia was injured. She just opted to remain silent about their plan until they actually reached the planet.

A large majority of the movie would not have happened if she just said what the hell they were doing. Saving Finn, Rose, and Poe a lot of time and frustrations.

The only reason why I can think she didn't share this plan was because they suspected a spy was on board.

Regardless its a big plot hole that bugs me.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2017, 09:13:34 PM by CaptainNexus616 »

Offline Nostalgia

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #59 on: December 24, 2017, 09:37:09 PM »
it's not a plot hole. she outranks him and it's not her job to give him need to know intel, it's his job to do what he's told.

now, was it smart to play bustnuts with your best pilot in that kind of situation? maybe not, but it's not a plot hole since she has a reason for behaving that way.

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #60 on: December 24, 2017, 09:55:47 PM »
Apologies, what I meant was. Why not inform the entire Resistance of their evacuation plan once she was appointed as temporary leader. If it was need to know Intel by only a small handful then I'm willing to accept that and leave it at that.

Online RubySlippers

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #61 on: December 24, 2017, 10:23:14 PM »
My biggest issue hasn't been with Rey.

Its Amilyn Holdo, the Vice Admiral who took over after Leia was injured. She just opted to remain silent about their plan until they actually reached the planet.

A large majority of the movie would not have happened if she just said what the hell they were doing. Saving Finn, Rose, and Poe a lot of time and frustrations.

The only reason why I can think she didn't share this plan was because they suspected a spy was on board.

Regardless its a big plot hole that bugs me.

How so? They had a stupid long shot plan, that commanding officer would not likely have approved it over say Admiral Ackbar who would have in a second with more support so they would still had run off and the only good thing the CO did was ram the last ship into the enemy command ship.

Offline Arkaniel

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #62 on: December 25, 2017, 05:45:37 AM »
Apologies, what I meant was. Why not inform the entire Resistance of their evacuation plan once she was appointed as temporary leader. If it was need to know Intel by only a small handful then I'm willing to accept that and leave it at that.

Considering hyperspace tracking was supposedly impossible, they likely thought there was a spy indeed. Besides which, why would a CO possibly explain her actions in detail to a demoted officer with slight insubordination issues, a low level technician and someone who isn't even part of the resistance officially? No general/admiral explains the details of a plan to their privates and such. They don't need to. Don't forget the resistance is still a military. Lower ranked people almost always only hear their part of any plan. In other words, do as you are ordered.

So to me that was not such a big plot hole at all. I actually thought it pretty realistic

Offline Cold Heritage

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #63 on: December 25, 2017, 12:32:34 PM »
Maybe they could've done more to show that the Resistance was a full-on military organization like the First Order and establish that members of the Resistance were expected to adhere to full military discipline.

Online Ariel

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #64 on: December 25, 2017, 12:35:35 PM »
Ugh it wa so good. So so damn good. I can’t wait to go see it again. I loved it. I’m sad Luke died but I’m glad it was the way it was. He went peacefully. I was also living for the parallels between him and Obi Wan.

Such a good movie. <3

Offline Arkaniel

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #65 on: December 25, 2017, 06:08:55 PM »
Maybe they could've done more to show that the Resistance was a full-on military organization like the First Order and establish that members of the Resistance were expected to adhere to full military discipline.

I’m not sure how much more they could have done so other than calling their leaders generals, admirals and the like, have warships and squadrons of fighters, use demotions in military rank to punish insubordination,...? The might be more paramilitary than full on military, but those ranks and such were not for show.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #66 on: December 26, 2017, 11:24:43 PM »
My problem with Holdo was that she just kicks back and watches the transports get popped like soap bubbles, then finally turns around and does the lightspeed ram everyone knew was coming. There was no reason for her to delay that once they realized the cloaking had failed.

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #67 on: January 01, 2018, 09:17:58 PM »
That was a plot device to bring tension that I didn't particularly like, either.  But then again, they were supposed to be cloaked, or at least unnoticed, in the original plan.  As soon as she saw the cargo ships getting smoked, she should have done her duty and rammed immediately...but then maybe there was more stuff to do to get the ship ready.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #68 on: January 01, 2018, 09:49:48 PM »
That was a plot device to bring tension that I didn't particularly like, either.  But then again, they were supposed to be cloaked, or at least unnoticed, in the original plan.  As soon as she saw the cargo ships getting smoked, she should have done her duty and rammed immediately...but then maybe there was more stuff to do to get the ship ready.

Maybe, but it didn't seem like it. She just stared out the window watching them die, then finally sat down at the pilot's chair and started turning. So it was very poorly done either way.

Offline Regina Minx

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #69 on: January 07, 2018, 01:04:08 PM »
The biggest problem I had with the resolution of the fleet chase is the fact that Admiral Hunger Games pretty much invalidated the conflict of Star Wars prior to The Last Jedi.

Star Wars has always operated on the logic of World War 2 Naval and Aerial Warfare. The big ships hang back and shoot big guns while exciting dog chase and fighter jockeying stuff happens. As long as it consistently played by these rules, it was a fine conceit of the setting and style, even if it's not particularly 'realistic' in terms of the way space war would logically unfold given the physical laws of the universe.

But Admiral Hunger Games broke the rules. She used her flagship like a lightspeed bullet, and pretty much wrecked the First Order's shit. She took out Snoke's command ship and like half the enemy fleet, with one lightspeed jump directly through their battle formation.

So why do we have to have chosen saviors bullseye small thermal exhaust port openings to destroy floating superweapons? A handful of asteroids with lightspeed engines attached to them will do. Why do we even need a Death Star in the first place, when planetary destruction can be yours for the cost of a few kilotons of iron?

And if a hyperspace ship bullet was always a threat in space warfare, there is no reason that ships should be flying in such tight formation. Enemies that will launch hyperspace projectiles at you should be a concern in every engagement, and ships should not be approaching each other except at relativistic distances. Planets should be constantly paranoid that space terrorists and criminals will fling ships at light speed into their surface, and interdiction fields should be a standard part of both ship and planetary defense.

In short, I think that Admiral Hunger Games pretty much broke the suspension of disbelief surrounding the space opera fighting in Star Wars. It's the biggest flaw of The Last Jedi, in my estimation.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #70 on: January 07, 2018, 01:23:36 PM »
Through from a strict physics perspective, a ship that size going superluminal shouldn't have just smashed a big hole through the Supremacy, it should have atomized the entire hull. So we can reasonably extrapolate that something is messing with the logical outcome of the attack, and if we're feeling charitable, we can have that explanation (whatever technobabble we desire) is why lightspeed attacks of that sort are a last-ditch desperation maneuver instead of the default.

Offline Regina Minx

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #71 on: January 07, 2018, 01:35:15 PM »
Through from a strict physics perspective, a ship that size going superluminal shouldn't have just smashed a big hole through the Supremacy, it should have atomized the entire hull. So we can reasonably extrapolate that something is messing with the logical outcome of the attack, and if we're feeling charitable, we can have that explanation (whatever technobabble we desire) is why lightspeed attacks of that sort are a last-ditch desperation maneuver instead of the default.

That or the screenwriters aren't physicists.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #72 on: January 07, 2018, 01:57:47 PM »
That or the screenwriters aren't physicists.

I can't imagine they are. Still, if we are looking at the question of 'why dont they launch hyperspace asteroids at the Death Star', it shows there is/could be a complicating technobabble factor we don't know about. The movies are never going to explain it.

Offline Arkaniel

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #73 on: January 07, 2018, 02:27:17 PM »
I can't imagine they are. Still, if we are looking at the question of 'why dont they launch hyperspace asteroids at the Death Star', it shows there is/could be a complicating technobabble factor we don't know about. The movies are never going to explain it.

As far as I am aware, because it is near impossible to circumvent the safeties on a hyperdrive calculation in order to jump into a gravity well, while every piece of hyperdrive technology and software of the past twenty five thousand years has been designed to avoid hitting things while going into hyperdrive. Besides which, I don’t remember if it was stated in the movies or if it was stated in one of the Lucas approved books or fact files, but generally, something in hyperspeed hitting a planet is only detrimental to the thing doing the hitting, because it smashes into the gravity well, which begins quite a distance from the planet, while the gravity well of a ship would be pretty much only the ship itself.

Just my attempt at badly explaining some facts pulled together from EU canon that could make some sense of what Holdo did.

And short distance hyperspace jumping is nigh impossible, so the fact holdo hit the fleet at all was a minor miracle. Especially since she likely had to aim manually instead of hacking/slicing programs that were designed to not do what she did.

Offline Regina Minx

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #74 on: January 07, 2018, 03:09:48 PM »
Especially since she likely had to aim manually instead of hacking/slicing programs that were designed to not do what she did.

C'mon. She pressed like three buttons.