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Author Topic: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*  (Read 3782 times)

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Offline Arkaniel

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #100 on: December 22, 2017, 06:34:23 AM »
I have one person telling me TLJ is the most "adult" installment, someone else is saying it's for ten-year-olds. Which is it guys? ::)

Though I feel most ten-year-olds would be bored to tears by TLJ, aside from the X-wing scenes or the Snoke Ninja fight.

I think Last Jedi works for all ages. I think it’s more an issue of exp3ctations. I expected a fun movie with action scenes, humour and science fiction and... so on. I got what I wanted. I enjoyed it and I think it was a fun movie to watch and better than TFA or the prequel trilogy, though maybe not on the same level of immersion as the original trilogy.

I also think Mia h is very right!

Star Wars isn’t meant to be analysed. I don’t think you can analyse any science fiction or fantasy as thoroughly as some people are attempting to do with this movie, just to find reasons to call it a bad movie. You either liked it or didn’t and no amount of critiquing is going to change it. On the issue of plot writing, dues ex machine and Mary Sues and whatnot... well, I don’t know any fantasy or science fiction that doesn’t suffer from these things.

Also, Rey didn’t KNOW, not for sure and it’s still very possible Kylo was lying to her. Besides, why would Rey need a special parentage at all? Age wise, she could only be Luke’s daughter of any of the famous characters and I think Luke would have remembered if he had a daughter and definitely not have left her on Jakku of all places.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #101 on: December 22, 2017, 06:54:50 AM »
I also think Mia h is very right!

Star Wars isn’t meant to be analysed. I don’t think you can analyse any science fiction or fantasy as thoroughly as some people are attempting to do with this movie, just to find reasons to call it a bad movie. You either liked it or didn’t and no amount of critiquing is going to change it. On the issue of plot writing, dues ex machine and Mary Sues and whatnot... well, I don’t know any fantasy or science fiction that doesn’t suffer from these things.
You're wrong, and I find this statement very dangerous and anti-intellectual. I'm trying desperately not to be offended, and I don't want to fly into a rant, but saying Star Wars isn't meant to be analyzed hurts everything about it. Sure it protects it from all the negative criticism, but it would also stop people from leveling positive criticism at it. You're basically saying it is merely mindless entertainment fodder to be ingested and crapped out of the human brain box without nary a second thought, and that's the single most offensive thing art can be. Sure a lot of people think criticism is just a bunch of stuffy people poo-pooing movies they don't like, and trust me I hate that as much as the next person, but true analytical criticism is important to art on a fundamental level. If work is not worthy of a deeper dive then I'll point you back up to the mindless entertainment fodder once again.

It's only when we stop to give works of art that deeper level of scrutiny, that deeper read that we find that resonance within us. To say "It's not meant to be analyzed" is saying that it basically is not worth the film it's shot on. So yeah, some of time you out what directors, writers, and developers tried to sweep under the rug and it brings the experience down, but sometimes, sometimes you find something so wonderfully constructed and full of meaning that it becomes something so much better than merely a book, movie, or game.

And no, I'm not just trying to validate my bachelor's in English. I'm trying to explain why the humanities exist at all.  Never have I said anyone should feel bad because they liked a film or movie. I think all works are learning experiences, even the Librarians. I may not like something, but I never write it off. And I definitely don't write off something I enjoy to spare myself from maybe picking at a flaw, a flaw that may make it all just fall apart. That's not what a proper analytical critique is about People like what they like, but don't try to refute the desire to give something that deeper read. Is there some sausage-making involved that some people might not wish to know? Sure, but if you can take that deep breath and push past it, and be honest with it, you might find that the works you love are more multifaceted and nuanced than ever thought possible. 

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #102 on: December 22, 2017, 12:04:22 PM »
Guess I know who needs a life preserver for Christmas.

Star Wars is aimed at 10 year olds and I'm sure the 10 year old SithChicken would have loved TLJ, you just have to let your inner 10 year old watch the movie and not over analyse everything.

As for The Librarians being terrible????? It's really low budget, it's silly and everyone involved knows it. But instead of shying away from those things, the show leans into them and that makes it work because they aren't taking themselves seriously, again 10 year old SithChicken would love it.

10 year old SithChicken had better taste than that. Don't project your lack of desire to analyze art or entertainment upon me. You don't know me or what I like. SO do not make assumptions about me.

What is it about people defending this movie that makes them so condescending?

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #103 on: December 22, 2017, 12:06:31 PM »
Star Wars isn’t meant to be analysed. I don’t think you can analyse any science fiction or fantasy as thoroughly as some people are attempting to do with this movie, just to find reasons to call it a bad movie. You either liked it or didn’t and no amount of critiquing is going to change it. On the issue of plot writing, dues ex machine and Mary Sues and whatnot... well, I don’t know any fantasy or science fiction that doesn’t suffer from these things.

I don't even know where to begin with how wrong this statement is. I literally review science fiction and fantasy for a living. I can show you a hundred examples off the top of my head of science fiction and fantasy that doesn't suffer from those problems.

Offline Shekinah

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #104 on: December 22, 2017, 12:26:53 PM »
Okay people calm down. No need to get angry and annoyed.
Everyone has their opinion. If you don't like it, that's okay. If you like it that's okay too.
It's just you don't have to tear down the other group who's opinion isn't the same.
What's good writing for one is bad writing for another and vice versa. Not everybody likes the same things after all.
It's okay to make a statement to express in which camp you are. But tearing down a person who's statement doesn't agree with your views, no matter which side you are on, isn't what this topic is about nor the point of it I think. so please calm down. Just say what you like, what you don't like and that's it.
Don't become rude because someone doesn't agree with your view or you don't agree with their view.

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #105 on: December 22, 2017, 02:12:29 PM »
Being a nobody who came from nobody--that's Anakin Skywalker in a nutshell.  Sure, he may have been created by Darth Plagueis, but that isn't even canon...yet.

What is interesting to me is, out of all the countless fan theories, some of them were very clever and would have made for some great plot points.

I think Star Wars can be both analyzed by adults and enjoyed by children.  There are far too many personality types and individual interests in the world for someone to claim a work of art is 'X', and then expect everyone else to adhere to their understanding of it.  There are as many opinions as people.  Explaining why your own understanding is what it is--that's where good communication skills comes in.  Since we're dealing with both emotional and logical responses to film, there's going to be a lot of difference in how people experienced the films.  Logically, I saw flaws, and though they didn't outweigh the clever parts, there were a lot of them.  Emotionally, it was a joy to watch for me.

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #106 on: December 22, 2017, 08:12:15 PM »
I think Star Wars can be both analyzed by adults and enjoyed by children.  There are far too many personality types and individual interests in the world for someone to claim a work of art is 'X', and then expect everyone else to adhere to their understanding of it.  There are as many opinions as people.  Explaining why your own understanding is what it is--that's where good communication skills comes in.  Since we're dealing with both emotional and logical responses to film, there's going to be a lot of difference in how people experienced the films.  Logically, I saw flaws, and though they didn't outweigh the clever parts, there were a lot of them.  Emotionally, it was a joy to watch for me.

^ This. I really don't understand why this concept is so hard for people to grasp.

Offline Kazyth

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #107 on: December 22, 2017, 08:37:22 PM »
^ This. I really don't understand why this concept is so hard for people to grasp.

Mostly I think because emotion is in it.  That can't be helped, but there was a lot less of "I found the writing to be flawed, and this is where I saw the flaws, maybe this is what I would change" and a lot of "Hack writing, this is crap, that is crap" etc.  Not helpful language, and it's the kind that puts people on the defensive.  Which is not great if a dialogue is meant to be opened in a thread.

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #108 on: December 22, 2017, 08:41:11 PM »
Emotion is the enemy of reason.

Offline Kazyth

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #109 on: December 22, 2017, 08:49:56 PM »
Peace is a lie!  There is only passion!

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #110 on: December 22, 2017, 09:40:20 PM »
Emotion is the enemy of reason.
I was going to say, "Actually several sociological--"

Then I got it...

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #111 on: December 22, 2017, 10:09:30 PM »
I was going to say, "Actually several sociological--"

Then I got it...

Got what? I wasn't making a reference to anything or a sly comment of some kind. That is my sincere belief backed by years of debate and psychology.

Offline WongBal

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #112 on: December 22, 2017, 10:13:57 PM »
I'm glad we've come back around to civil! This must be the most well-behaved Star Wars debate I've ever seen.

For me, analyzing a movie's flaws and strong points is more of a dissection process to help me figure out why I liked or didn't like it. I'll probably see TLJ again and who knows, my opinion may change. For example I enjoyed Star Trek Into Darkness when I first saw it and now I loathe it.

At this point I still feel like TLJ missed a lot of opportunities. But everyone speaking in its defense have raised good points. And it's by no means terrible. Even The Phantom Menace had good points.

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #113 on: December 22, 2017, 10:32:18 PM »
Quote
Emotion is the enemy of reason.

And yet the vast majority of humans are born with innate emotional senses, which can be honed into an emotional intelligence.  I think of emotion and logic as facets of human consciousness, but it is my belief that logic must be the one in charge.  I'm no psychiatrist, but my ex is, and I helped her study all those years for her degree, so I picked up some things along the way.  It's no hard science, for sure.

Quote
At this point I still feel like TLJ missed a lot of opportunities. But everyone speaking in its defense have raised good points. And it's by no means terrible. Even The Phantom Menace had good points.

Sure I can agree with this!  The Prequels, for all of their own failures, had some of the most satisfying emotional moments in the entire collection.  The silent scene where Anakin and Padme are looking out from their separate rooms, only being acted with facial expressions, was deeply satisfying in the way it communicated what they were experiencing. The opera house scene was masterfully acted by Ian McDiarmid.  And the finale of Obi-Wan and Anakin's duel was intense and surprisingly well-acted.

For that matter, I've never felt the hatred for digital effects vs practical effects that so many people have expressed.  I don't get as easily taken out of the experience and have my immersion jolted by imperfect effects.  I grew up on some pretty terrible (in comparison) effects, especially with my dad loving to watch old Bruce Lee films and even older Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon serials.  For me, even films with poor effects (think Princess Bride) can be satisfying, if they excel in other areas.  As I mentioned before, Star Wars has never been outstanding with dialogue, but that's easy to overlook with the pace, effects, and space opera excitement.

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #114 on: December 22, 2017, 10:36:11 PM »
And yet the vast majority of humans are born with innate emotional senses, which can be honed into an emotional intelligence.  I think of emotion and logic as facets of human consciousness, but it is my belief that logic must be the one in charge.  I'm no psychiatrist, but my ex is, and I helped her study all those years for her degree, so I picked up some things along the way.  It's no hard science, for sure.

None of which impacts my statement or really has anything to do with it. Emotion is animal nature and chemicals. Reason and logic are the tools by which we overcome those. Thus emotion is the enemy of reason.

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #115 on: December 23, 2017, 12:03:56 AM »
Logic is, by definition, animal nature and chemicals as well, because it is all based in the brain.  Humans are animals, too, just with highly developed brains--and thus highly developed emotional responses.  To call emotion the enemy of reason is as much to say blue is the enemy of orange...when both are simply aspects of their spectrums.

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #116 on: December 23, 2017, 12:09:03 AM »
Logic is not by definition anything of the sort. Being based in the brain does not make it a function of chemicals and instinct. Logic is a discipline by which we overcome instinctive and emotional reactions. We use a process by which to overcome the animalistic urges inherent to our biology.

I actually have a degree in this field. I have devoted a great deal of my life studying the process' of logic and reason in the face of emotion. Written papers on the subject and everything. It's kind of one of my passions.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #117 on: December 23, 2017, 06:12:45 AM »
Logic is not by definition anything of the sort. Being based in the brain does not make it a function of chemicals and instinct. Logic is a discipline by which we overcome instinctive and emotional reactions. We use a process by which to overcome the animalistic urges inherent to our biology.

I actually have a degree in this field. I have devoted a great deal of my life studying the process' of logic and reason in the face of emotion. Written papers on the subject and everything. It's kind of one of my passions.
I'm not going to get too deep into it, but I've read article after article and book after book by neuroscientists that say emotion is crucial to rational, logical decision-making ventures. To be totally without emotion not only lengthens the time you make any decision no matter how trivial to impractical levels, but actually causes you to be divested in your own life. I'm paraphrasing a book called Descartes' Error. It's counter-intuitive but a lot of people are holding to the theory.

That's all I'm going to say on that subject, because the tread's derailed enough as it is.

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #118 on: December 23, 2017, 08:44:44 AM »
I'm not going to get too deep into it, but I've read article after article and book after book by neuroscientists that say emotion is crucial to rational, logical decision-making ventures. To be totally without emotion not only lengthens the time you make any decision no matter how trivial to impractical levels, but actually causes you to be divested in your own life. I'm paraphrasing a book called Descartes' Error. It's counter-intuitive but a lot of people are holding to the theory.

That's all I'm going to say on that subject, because the tread's derailed enough as it is.

That's good because you just Strawman'ed the hell out of my statement to make this last argument.

Offline Oniya

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #119 on: December 23, 2017, 12:07:50 PM »
This thread is being locked for no less than 24 hours.  Please review the rules on civility and remember that this is not a debate forum.