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Author Topic: American Football Players Protesting  (Read 4262 times)

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Offline Doomblade403xxx

Re: American Football Players Protesting
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2017, 09:20:48 PM »
There is some overlap here on all sides. There are many good and honorable police officers who do their duty and put themselves in danger for the sake of the community for shit pay. But there are also many corrupt scumbags who abuse and dishonor the badge, and there are cases where protecting the blue line has alienated the officers from the people they are meant to protect.

Just as on the other side we have people in the BLM movement and other groups who have legitimate grievances and have experienced injustice or abuse at the hands of the establishment. And then we also have people who use it as an excuse to be racist towards others or just to lash out and cause riots.

This isn't a case of good or evil on one side or the other. It isn't a case about truth. Absolutes only exist in fiction and in lies. We have lots of people out there, Good people, bad people. Bad-Good people, and Good-Bad people. but at the end of the day they are all people.

@DB403: Im sure you have seen a lot of things on the beat. You have seen the absolute worst of mankind, drug dealers who profit off of ruining the lives of others like a cancer on society, gang members who target civilians, murderers, rapists. There is no end to the horrors you might have seen, I don't know you, and I cant put myself in your shoes no matter how much I try. But I still do my best to understand you.

On the other end, we have to try and understand what it must feel like for people on the other end. Not the criminals, they have made their choice. Im talking about regular civilians, every day people who face prejudice from others, and sometimes face it even from those who swore an oath to protect them.

We aren't going to fix things by throwing out blame, by accusing others. That's the easy and broken way to do things. It makes us feel better but in the end it accomplishes nothing.

The only way we are going to fix society and build a more perfect union, is by working together. We will never have a perfect society. There is no such thing as utopia, but what we can do is always work to improve and remodel ourselves over and over again to become better, to adapt and survive to a changing world.

I know you were upset, and that you might be hurting. But those feelings that you have are exactly what those on the other side of the fence are or have been feeling. Your not a bad person. I can tell, you are just hurting. We are all hurting, and we are all lashing out at eachother because the pain has gotten worse in the last few years. But instead of trying to bandage one another we just keep lashing out, and its trapping us in a cycle of violence and hate. We have to break the chain both from without and from within.

And....I was going somewhere with this but im an idiot and now I don't know what I was saying.

We fix the world by working together. People on both sides have legitimate points and complaints, neither side is completely full of saints or sinners.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Really? I have NEVER worked at a job, representing a company where my political or religious views were acceptable to share with the public. It's simply not done at all. When you put on that uniform, you represent the franchise and the city. This means you are a role model. You can say whatever you like on your time. When you are on mine and playing for the millions you earn in a contract, then you keep your political horseshit off the field and play ball.

Watch the turnovers...

Sandra Bland
Tamir Rice
Walter Scott

Tamir Rice as I recall had a toy gun and pointed it at police. So in a cops mind you are dealing with an armed person until you can prove otherwise. There was no orange safety shit at the end of the barrel like with most toys. So you have to defend yourself. Sorry but I'm not going to risk getting smoked. No freebie shots to prove it's fake. You turn the gun towards me, you get dropped.

Sandra Bland killed herself in her cell. Police didn't kill her. She killed herself.

Walter Scott: Murder plain and simple and the cop who did it is in the system now for it.

Oh and everything I said has to do with this topic. In this country people have it way better than everywhere else. We have freedoms no one else has. The irony is this nfl bullshit was started by a guy who made 19 million on an nfl contract. We wanna go back further. Yeah his real parents abandoned him and he was adopted by loving white parents who supported him and laid the foundations for him to live his dreams as an NFL quarterback. So for him to act like he even knows what he is talking about is absurd. He never knew what it was to be poor and living in a rough neighborhood. SEVERAL other black men up to and including Ben Carson suffered worse in their lives to be successful and have prospered.

There is some overlap here on all sides. There are many good and honorable police officers who do their duty and put themselves in danger for the sake of the community for shit pay. But there are also many corrupt scumbags who abuse and dishonor the badge, and there are cases where protecting the blue line has alienated the officers from the people they are meant to protect.

Just as on the other side we have people in the BLM movement and other groups who have legitimate grievances and have experienced injustice or abuse at the hands of the establishment. And then we also have people who use it as an excuse to be racist towards others or just to lash out and cause riots.

This isn't a case of good or evil on one side or the other. It isn't a case about truth. Absolutes only exist in fiction and in lies. We have lots of people out there, Good people, bad people. Bad-Good people, and Good-Bad people. but at the end of the day they are all people.

@DB403: Im sure you have seen a lot of things on the beat. You have seen the absolute worst of mankind, drug dealers who profit off of ruining the lives of others like a cancer on society, gang members who target civilians, murderers, rapists. There is no end to the horrors you might have seen, I don't know you, and I cant put myself in your shoes no matter how much I try. But I still do my best to understand you.

On the other end, we have to try and understand what it must feel like for people on the other end. Not the criminals, they have made their choice. Im talking about regular civilians, every day people who face prejudice from others, and sometimes face it even from those who swore an oath to protect them.

We aren't going to fix things by throwing out blame, by accusing others. That's the easy and broken way to do things. It makes us feel better but in the end it accomplishes nothing.

The only way we are going to fix society and build a more perfect union, is by working together. We will never have a perfect society. There is no such thing as utopia, but what we can do is always work to improve and remodel ourselves over and over again to become better, to adapt and survive to a changing world.

I know you were upset, and that you might be hurting. But those feelings that you have are exactly what those on the other side of the fence are or have been feeling. Your not a bad person. I can tell, you are just hurting. We are all hurting, and we are all lashing out at eachother because the pain has gotten worse in the last few years. But instead of trying to bandage one another we just keep lashing out, and its trapping us in a cycle of violence and hate. We have to break the chain both from without and from within.

And....I was going somewhere with this but im an idiot and now I don't know what I was saying.

We fix the world by working together. People on both sides have legitimate points and complaints, neither side is completely full of saints or sinners.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

But you see that's the narrative. That every cop is out there looking to smoke someone of color like it's a fucking rite of passage. That is the false narrative. The false narrative Mike Browns case was built on. He never put his hands up and begged the cop not to shoot. Forensic evidence was conclusive on that. It was a fight for that cops weapon, and the felon lost. I would love to see people come together on the topic i sure would, but the fact is right this second, you can't hardly go to STL without running into one of these mobs. They block traffic, assault people, terrorize shoppers on the sidewalk and in malls, and basically make life miserable. You cannot negotiate with people when their one goal is to make everyone miserable.

Offline Iniquitous

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Re: American Football Players Protesting
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2017, 09:26:16 PM »
An answer to your question Eikichi.

Blind patriotism.
Racists

My father is a retired cop.  Like Doomblade403xxx above, he does not like, approve, or believe in the Black Lives Matter group.  Of course, my father is a racist and, under certain circumstances, will admit it.  He also does not believe that racism is a problem in this country and that while some black people do overcome the obstacles in their way in order to become successful, he does not believe that they start out with more obstacles than a white man does. Needless to say, I do not like having in depth conversations with my father, and am embarrassed by him.

Today, I had to block my aunt on facebook because of her blind patriotism and absolute raging at what she views to be disrespect to the US flag and national anthem.  Sure, she understands the whole 1st amendment and the fact that everyone has the -right-, but she says those who choose to kneel during the anthem are disrespecting everyone who has fought and died.  No amount of trying to talk to her would get past her blind patriotism and, in the end, I told her I love her but I was not continuing the conversation since she was not capable of hearing anything that was against her opinion and she was not going to change my opinion.

Those throwing a fit about this are either racist or suffer from blind patriotism.  They understand the 1st amendment, but they think people should only exercise their rights in a manner they above of.   These are usually people who do not want the world to change from what is comfortable to them (my mother). 

Offline Regina Minx

Re: American Football Players Protesting
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2017, 09:27:24 PM »
Oh and everything I said has to do with this topic. In this country people have it way better than everywhere else. We have freedoms no one else has..

Repeating the same false, disproven assertions does not make them true. All it does it make other people suspect that you're not arguing in good faith.

Offline Lustful Bride

Re: American Football Players Protesting
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2017, 09:29:50 PM »
Really? I have NEVER worked at a job, representing a company where my political or religious views were acceptable to share with the public. It's simply not done at all. When you put on that uniform, you represent the franchise and the city. This means you are a role model. You can say whatever you like on your time. When you are on mine and playing for the millions you earn in a contract, then you keep your political horseshit off the field and play ball.

But that is different. When you put on a uniform you are a representative of the law. The law cannot pick favorites, cannot know politics or race. It is only about what is Just and Right. The NFL just throw a ball around. When you put on the badge or the uniform, or hop into the fire engine. You represent something greater, the chosen few who protect those who cannot protect themselves, who fight fires and pull people out of the worst situations.

When you put on the uniform, you are the law, and as such pick no side.

I think I went overboard with the sayings. I waxed poetical way too much.

Quote
Watch the turnovers...

I don't know what that means.

Quote
But you see that's the narrative. That every cop is out there looking to smoke someone of color like it's a fucking rite of passage. That is the false narrative. The false narrative Mike Browns case was built on. He never put his hands up and begged the cop not to shoot. Forensic evidence was conclusive on that. It was a fight for that cops weapon, and the felon lost. I would love to see people come together on the topic i sure would, but the fact is right this second, you can't hardly go to STL without running into one of these mobs. They block traffic, assault people, terrorize shoppers on the sidewalk and in malls, and basically make life miserable. You cannot negotiate with people when their one goal is to make everyone miserable.

False narrative? Not every cop is an evil racist, but neither are they all saints. And you get scumbags who overstep their bounds or who fuck up and get a civilian killed or let personal prejudice get in the way of conducting the law.

They are still the exception to the rule but it does happen and it has happened enough times to warrant action. People have lost trust and faith in the police and that makes their job harder and makes things more dangerous for civilians as well. Neither side can exist without the other.

Do some people walk around (on both sides) With a chip on their shoulder? yes, and that chip leads to them acting out in situations where they could have gotten off without a problem.

But some of these people, like the police officers, have real points of discussion. The problem is that it gets bogged down by those who just use it as an excuse to act out or those who get abit too power hungry and throw their weight around unnecessarily.

I may not know what its like to be on the blue line. But my father was a soldier, firefighter, and then a DC Capitol police. I know shit gets bad and I know what its like. I have had moments where I was afraid my dad wouldn't come home. I can sympathize, but I also know form his experience that there are pieces of shit out there who dishonor the uniform and use it for the wrong reasons.

Offline Eikichi

Re: American Football Players Protesting
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2017, 09:37:51 PM »
Really? I have NEVER worked at a job, representing a company where my political or religious views were acceptable to share with the public. It's simply not done at all. When you put on that uniform, you represent the franchise and the city. This means you are a role model. You can say whatever you like on your time. When you are on mine and playing for the millions you earn in a contract, then you keep your political horseshit off the field and play ball.

Obviously you've never worked at the NFL. You should check it out. They have no problem with players expressing their political views, one way or the other.

Oh and everything I said has to do with this topic. In this country people have it way better than everywhere else. We have freedoms no one else has. The irony is this nfl bullshit was started by a guy who made 19 million on an nfl contract. We wanna go back further. Yeah his real parents abandoned him and he was adopted by loving white parents who supported him and laid the foundations for him to live his dreams as an NFL quarterback. So for him to act like he even knows what he is talking about is absurd. He never knew what it was to be poor and living in a rough neighborhood. SEVERAL other black men up to and including Ben Carson suffered worse in their lives to be successful and have prospered.

I didn't realize you had to be oppressed or in some way afflicted by the system in order to point out how it's wrong or broken. Man. If only Abraham Lincoln had been black he would have better understood the lives of the black slaves and known that the slave issue was just bullshit.

See how that fallacy works?

But you see that's the narrative. That every cop is out there looking to smoke someone of color like it's a fucking rite of passage. That is the false narrative. The false narrative Mike Browns case was built on. He never put his hands up and begged the cop not to shoot. Forensic evidence was conclusive on that. It was a fight for that cops weapon, and the felon lost. I would love to see people come together on the topic i sure would, but the fact is right this second, you can't hardly go to STL without running into one of these mobs. They block traffic, assault people, terrorize shoppers on the sidewalk and in malls, and basically make life miserable. You cannot negotiate with people when their one goal is to make everyone miserable.
That's not the narrative that anyone is pushing. There are also more PEACEFUL protesters than their are transgressors. No matter how peaceful the protest you always have an extremist fraction that acts out and turns into a mob, its rare for it not to occur.

Offline DeamonbaneTopic starter

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Re: American Football Players Protesting
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2017, 09:38:25 PM »
Let's try and keep it civil here, folks.

DoomBlade403, you are making a lot of assertions that I would like to see sources for.

As for your claim that players are on 'your dime', it's an argument that I've seen a lot over the past day or so, and I can say that those players are not on your dime. You may have bought a jersey and paid to watch a game, but that money is going to the owner of the franchise, and it is on that individual's dime that these players rely on. For most of the teams that took a knee, the owners likely were involved or at least solicited for permission to do so.

Racism exists, and it isn't a recent problem, or even one that can only be found in America. In every country in which I have seen it, I have seen people who yell as you do that either it's not as big a problem as people say it is or even that it's not even there, or if it is, it's the fault of the victims themselves. And that is simply not true. Not only that, but the people who say this, even if they don't think of themselves as 'racists' and 'have a friend that is a minority so that means I'm not racist', let me tell you, racism is there. Racism is a problem. That isn't up for debate. As Iniquitous said once (I forget where) 'You are entitled to your opinions, not your facts'. And anyone who denies facts is an apologist for lies, and that's just as bad, if not worse.

Offline Lustful Bride

Re: American Football Players Protesting
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2017, 09:41:29 PM »
Let's try and keep it civil here, folks.

I'm sorry. From now on I will try and be better behaved. If I feel like I cant handle it I will just opt out and stay out.

Offline Doomblade403xxx

Re: American Football Players Protesting
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2017, 10:09:08 PM »
But that is different. When you put on a uniform you are a representative of the law. The law cannot pick favorites, cannot know politics or race. It is only about what is Just and Right. The NFL just throw a ball around. When you put on the badge or the uniform, or hop into the fire engine. You represent something greater, the chosen few who protect those who cannot protect themselves, who fight fires and pull people out of the worst situations.

When you put on the uniform, you are the law, and as such pick no side.

I think I went overboard with the sayings. I waxed poetical way too much.

I don't know what that means.

False narrative? Not every cop is an evil racist, but neither are they all saints. And you get scumbags who overstep their bounds or who fuck up and get a civilian killed or let personal prejudice get in the way of conducting the law.

They are still the exception to the rule but it does happen and it has happened enough times to warrant action. People have lost trust and faith in the police and that makes their job harder and makes things more dangerous for civilians as well. Neither side can exist without the other.

Do some people walk around (on both sides) With a chip on their shoulder? yes, and that chip leads to them acting out in situations where they could have gotten off without a problem.

But some of these people, like the police officers, have real points of discussion. The problem is that it gets bogged down by those who just use it as an excuse to act out or those who get abit too power hungry and throw their weight around unnecessarily.

I may not know what its like to be on the blue line. But my father was a soldier, firefighter, and then a DC Capitol police. I know shit gets bad and I know what its like. I have had moments where I was afraid my dad wouldn't come home. I can sympathize, but I also know form his experience that there are pieces of shit out there who dishonor the uniform and use it for the wrong reasons.

I have worked in other jobs aside from law enforcement. When you work someplace you represent that place. Politics and religion are things generally not allowed in any workplace. Especially when dealing with customers. NFL fans are customers. The NFL banned a memorial to fallen cops and cleats memorializing 9/11 but THIS is ok? It's absurd.

In football a fumble or an interception is a turnover. Turnovers are what often decide games. Common owner and coach preaching.

As far as bad cops, sure. There are bad employees in any profession. Bad cops weed themselves out. In my day of law enforcement things were very different. You didn't use all this talking and psychology. You came on the scene and you took over. Anyone gives lip and they hit the ground and get cuffed. That's how it was. The difference in those days an now. People...perps...respected the fact that you were stand up. That you take no shit and are firm, fair, and impartial.

You have a bad one who throws people around too much they will find the door. One way or another.

An answer to your question Eikichi.

Blind patriotism.
Racists

My father is a retired cop.  Like Doomblade403xxx above, he does not like, approve, or believe in the Black Lives Matter group.  Of course, my father is a racist and, under certain circumstances, will admit it.  He also does not believe that racism is a problem in this country and that while some black people do overcome the obstacles in their way in order to become successful, he does not believe that they start out with more obstacles than a white man does. Needless to say, I do not like having in depth conversations with my father, and am embarrassed by him.

Today, I had to block my aunt on facebook because of her blind patriotism and absolute raging at what she views to be disrespect to the US flag and national anthem.  Sure, she understands the whole 1st amendment and the fact that everyone has the -right-, but she says those who choose to kneel during the anthem are disrespecting everyone who has fought and died.  No amount of trying to talk to her would get past her blind patriotism and, in the end, I told her I love her but I was not continuing the conversation since she was not capable of hearing anything that was against her opinion and she was not going to change my opinion.

Those throwing a fit about this are either racist or suffer from blind patriotism.  They understand the 1st amendment, but they think people should only exercise their rights in a manner they above of.   These are usually people who do not want the world to change from what is comfortable to them (my mother). 


Blind patriotism? More like ANY PATRIOTISM. You see this country is what it is because of the people that came before us. If it wasn't for the people from other generations who sacrificed we wouldn't be where we are today. I stand for the pledge with my hand over my heart for those people. My father fought in both WW2 and Korea. He cried at night sometimes because men he knew died. Men and women for ages have made sacrifices so the next generation could have it better than the last, and that is why you should NEVER fail to respect the flag and the national anthem.

Since you brought up racism I have already mentioned BLM and stated my case on them. Antifa is a bunch of scumbags pushing a narrative of overt socialism and using violence to promote it. There are a million and one videos proving that on several sites. Black Panthers. Anyone who chases off white voters from polling stations with pipes could be construed as violent and racist in some circles. KKK. Well there you go. KKK is the worst racist organization in the history of racist organizations. We NEVER needed racism in this country.

One of my training officers in the police force was an old school asshole who was a racist. He threw out the slurs at people like it was a rap video. They feared him. I didn't follow that example, so I was respected. I lasted longer than him but am no longer in uniform or enforcing the law. You don't have to preach how bad some cops are. I saw it and I knew better. No reason in this world to be a dickhead. You aren't cool by being a racist. You're just a scumbag. Protip: Don't be a scumbag. It's a really simple concept that somehow got lost.

Repeating the same false, disproven assertions does not make them true. All it does it make other people suspect that you're not arguing in good faith.

Your opinion is noted

Offline Doomblade403xxx

Re: American Football Players Protesting
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2017, 10:21:57 PM »
Let's try and keep it civil here, folks.

DoomBlade403, you are making a lot of assertions that I would like to see sources for.

As for your claim that players are on 'your dime', it's an argument that I've seen a lot over the past day or so, and I can say that those players are not on your dime. You may have bought a jersey and paid to watch a game, but that money is going to the owner of the franchise, and it is on that individual's dime that these players rely on. For most of the teams that took a knee, the owners likely were involved or at least solicited for permission to do so.

Racism exists, and it isn't a recent problem, or even one that can only be found in America. In every country in which I have seen it, I have seen people who yell as you do that either it's not as big a problem as people say it is or even that it's not even there, or if it is, it's the fault of the victims themselves. And that is simply not true. Not only that, but the people who say this, even if they don't think of themselves as 'racists' and 'have a friend that is a minority so that means I'm not racist', let me tell you, racism is there. Racism is a problem. That isn't up for debate. As Iniquitous said once (I forget where) 'You are entitled to your opinions, not your facts'. And anyone who denies facts is an apologist for lies, and that's just as bad, if not worse.

I prefaced that with 'If i were an owner'.

You see if I own the team they are taking my money to play a game. They piss off the fan base I lose money. I make more money if my players just play the game and leave all their personal bullshit off the field. But if the fans boycott my games, In my taxpayer built stadium and leave me with a load of empty seats, then I lose tv time. I lose merchandise money. I lose gate revenue. All while paying some over inflated ego millions to go out there week after week and piss people off with his kneeling and narratives.

You wanna end racism? Quit talking about it. Pretty damn simple. No one is a white man or a black man or whatever. We all be just people. Men and women. But you see you all have ignored one major plot point. That seven year old shot in the head and where is his march and his rights? I'll bet right this second there are some cops out there diligently striving to make an arrest in this case to get justice for that family.

But hey I'll just take my police positive hyper patriot self out of this conversation.

Offline Iniquitous

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Re: American Football Players Protesting
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2017, 10:24:34 PM »

Blind patriotism? More like ANY PATRIOTISM. You see this country is what it is because of the people that came before us. If it wasn't for the people from other generations who sacrificed we wouldn't be where we are today. I stand for the pledge with my hand over my heart for those people. My father fought in both WW2 and Korea. He cried at night sometimes because men he knew died. Men and women for ages have made sacrifices so the next generation could have it better than the last, and that is why you should NEVER fail to respect the flag and the national anthem.

Since you brought up racism I have already mentioned BLM and stated my case on them. Antifa is a bunch of scumbags pushing a narrative of overt socialism and using violence to promote it. There are a million and one videos proving that on several sites. Black Panthers. Anyone who chases off white voters from polling stations with pipes could be construed as violent and racist in some circles. KKK. Well there you go. KKK is the worst racist organization in the history of racist organizations. We NEVER needed racism in this country.

One of my training officers in the police force was an old school asshole who was a racist. He threw out the slurs at people like it was a rap video. They feared him. I didn't follow that example, so I was respected. I lasted longer than him but am no longer in uniform or enforcing the law. You don't have to preach how bad some cops are. I saw it and I knew better. No reason in this world to be a dickhead. You aren't cool by being a racist. You're just a scumbag. Protip: Don't be a scumbag. It's a really simple concept that somehow got lost.



Here we go again.  I support what the players and owners are doing. Am I unpatriotic?  Not at all.  I simply do not believe in blind patriotism.  I do not blindly follow or support a President.  I do not blindly follow a flag.  I do not blindly follow an anthem.  I DO support the US Constitution and believe in it.  That means I support the 1st amendment.  I will scream to the heavens and fight to the very end for everyone's right to free speech and everything that entails.  I don't have to LIKE what their free speech says, but I support it.  Others do not have to like what I say, but they should support my right to say it.

All of this bitching is done by people who think that the only free speech should be theirs and those who's opinion they agree with.  That is not the 1st amendment and I do not call those people patriotic.  Not once did anyone say you had to agree with or like what the players and coaches are doing.  Not once did anyone say you can't speak your piece about it.  Nor did anyone say that you wouldn't have people responding to your opinion - which is our right.

Here's where I currently stand.  I support them. I make it known that I support them.  No one has to like it.  Those who don't can express to me that they don't like it.  I will respond with a polite "I understand, but it is their right."  and leave it at that.  I am not going to debate this with others any longer because all it does is frustrate everyone involved because I am not going to change my mind to make those who disagree happy, and honestly, I am not going to beat my head against a wall trying to get someone else to understand that it is the right of the owners and the players so they might as well stop bitching.

With that said, I am now opting to leave this discussion for the reasons listed above.  Much love to you all!

Offline DeamonbaneTopic starter

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Re: American Football Players Protesting
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2017, 10:50:26 PM »
I prefaced that with 'If i were an owner'.

You see if I own the team they are taking my money to play a game. They piss off the fan base I lose money. I make more money if my players just play the game and leave all their personal bullshit off the field. But if the fans boycott my games, In my taxpayer built stadium and leave me with a load of empty seats, then I lose tv time. I lose merchandise money. I lose gate revenue. All while paying some over inflated ego millions to go out there week after week and piss people off with his kneeling and narratives.

You wanna end racism? Quit talking about it. Pretty damn simple. No one is a white man or a black man or whatever. We all be just people. Men and women. But you see you all have ignored one major plot point. That seven year old shot in the head and where is his march and his rights? I'll bet right this second there are some cops out there diligently striving to make an arrest in this case to get justice for that family.

But hey I'll just take my police positive hyper patriot self out of this conversation.

For one thing, if owners were to attempt to fire or even threaten to fire a player over something that is only encouraged by NFL regulations, they would be opening themselves up to the kind of lawsuits that would make what the NFL is suffering now for the health issues of its players seem like a small town cow ownership dispute. That's literally billions of dollars. I think that they can suffer a few stuck-up fans boycotting their games until this all blows over.

Another thing, but in case you haven't noticed, NFL players, and sports players in general, aren't your average employees. If your top tier players take you to court over something, they don't have to play, and if they don't play, you have a problem. Which means that the owners of the franchises are choosing the lesser loss of a few fans dropping their support by supporting their moneymakers in order to avoid losing a lot more. It's not that complicated.

And... no. I'm sorry, but your logic is really, really flawed. I think you're intentionally forgetting someone that ran over a bunch of peaceful counter-protesters, killing one and injuring dozens, so I'll leave that to your conscience, but if you think that not talking about a problem is going to solve it, you have the kind of naivete that should preclude you from public service. By your logic, if we stop talking about wars, they'll stop. If we stop talking about corruption in politics, that'll put an end to it. Hey, let's stop talking about rape to stop it. Hell, maybe we should stop talking about cancer and AIDS, see if that helps. I've heard that not talking about drug abuse has done wonders. Not talking about a problem only makes it easier to proliferate and exacerbates it. It's not a solution. It's turning a blind eye, friend of mine.

And since you would rather not provide any sources for your claims, and instead barge out when they are questioned, please don't let the door hit you on the way out. Thank you for your contribution.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 10:53:57 PM by Deamonbane »

Offline Doomblade403xxx

Re: American Football Players Protesting
« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2017, 10:53:40 PM »
Your welcome

Offline Eikichi

Re: American Football Players Protesting
« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2017, 11:07:10 PM »
Back onto the topic at hand.

I'm curious as to how people feel about what the Dallas Cowboys did? They kneeled before the anthem, and then stood and locked hands during the anthem. Locking hands in support was what Trump wanted, yet they are still being torn apart by conservatives. So if just kneeling, even before the anthem, is enough to garner scorn than is the argument really still about insulting soldiers and veterans? They stood, just as the president wanted. So if that was the issue, surely they wouldn't be receiving criticism, unless the fact they kneeled and supported the larger issue is what is really bothering people. At least that's how I've looked at it so far, someone else's opinion would be helpful.

Offline Lustful Bride

Re: American Football Players Protesting
« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2017, 11:10:00 PM »
So if just kneeling, even before the anthem, is enough to garner scorn than is the argument really still about insulting soldiers and veterans

Nope and it was never about the veterans to begin with. They are only used to get people riled up and upset but they don't really care about them. Its about the party line. :(

Offline Cognitive Brainfart

Re: American Football Players Protesting
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2017, 03:08:58 AM »
Okay - the whole kneeling during the anthem thing started with Colin Kaepernick (I've probably botched that spelling.)  He started kneeling during the anthem in protest of the apparent lack of accountability when people of color get killed during an encounter with the police.  (There have been several threads about this, so I'm not going to go too far into that.)  These are encounters that included things as mild as traffic stops.  Other NFL players have followed suit, specifically in solidarity with Kaepernick (I'm at least going to botch it consistently.)  As protests go, I think it's a pretty decent one:  It gets attention (by doing something completely different than what others are doing), but it's not necessarily disruptive or inherently disrespectful (I can think of far worse things he could have chosen to do).

Now, Trump has recently come out and said that NFL players who take a knee when the anthem is played 'should be fired'.  As a direct result, you've now got players and owners joining in the protest - maybe not for the original reason, but to affirm that those players protesting by taking a knee have the support of their teammates in making that protest.  Almost the entire Steelers team didn't even take the field for the anthem this past weekend when they played against the Bears. 

Ah, thank you for explaining it! I didn't know what that was about. Now I know :)

To me, it just seems like people get butthurt about everything. Whenever someone does something, there is always a person who gets butthurt about it. It definitely sucks that it's this way but it's kind of inevitable these days, it seems. I don't hold as many grudges against Trump as most people here, but I still think this obsession with symbolic respect towards a flag or a song. It's just that, symbolic. In his position, he should focus on other stuff.

Offline Regina Minx

Re: American Football Players Protesting
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2017, 07:54:07 AM »
Your opinion is noted

Not an opinion. In my first response to you, I demonstrated how your claim that "the United States has the most freedoms of any nation" is false. I also showed how you were lying by misrepresenting absolute numbers instead of assessing the situation on a per capita basis. You did not respond to either and have now called facts opinions. You're being disingenuous.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: American Football Players Protesting
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2017, 08:41:41 AM »
Nope and it was never about the veterans to begin with. They are only used to get people riled up and upset but they don't really care about them. Its about the party line. :(

Yes, as a disabled veteran, I would personally like to be left out of this.

Do I like the action? Not really. Do I respect their right to do so? Absolutely. I’d rather have a man dissent in a peaceful manner than a thug, on either side of the political spectrum, go to a political event with the planned intent to do violence. I would join Kaepernick on the fifty yard line long before I endorse ANTIFA, the KKK or the more radical elements of BLM.
Might need him to give me a hand up afterwards. :)

I’m disappointed in the presidents words, he is our leader, not just the MAGA voters who he runs to rallies to boost his ego but all of us. Of the six presidents I’ve been able to vote for, he’s is the only one that has continually divisive. I hear things like how these men are millionaires and that means that they don’t suffer for the color of their skin or that they should use that money to do something about the issue. Just because they are protesting at lunch counters or bus seating doesn’t mean their issues don’t happen.

I discount most folks that say that for one simple reason, they are the same people who disdain other millionaires who speak up in the media on other events. ‘He’s not a politician/law enforcement officer/doctors/whatever, so he doesn’t understand’.

I’ve encountered racism personall, but for me it’s the exception not the rule. I’m white, that means unless I’m in specific parts if the country or overseas I have to go looking for it. I’ve spent more time seeing folks fuck with my airmen, petty officers and even a chief, all of color, than I have encountered it on me. I backed my guys in the first two categories and call the Officer of the Watch and backed my Chief in the latter.

When a guy laying on a bench wearing a leatherman in ripped up jeans, boots, and a cry for dawn shirt gets hassled less than the guy in slacks and a polo shirt their is something wrong. So, any athlete wants to kneel during the anthem to get a conversation started on how we can fix it, I’ll be happy to let them.  I would love to ask Colin a lot of things, and tell him that this vet is okay with his actions

Don’t tell me that this is about disrespecting me and mine, this is about something else. Leave us out of that bull shit.

Additionally: patriotism isn’t one blind set of actions, it’s standing up to something that isn’t right and saying ‘No, you move’ because it is wrong. These men are kneeling because the man who should be bring both sides to the table and hashing this out is too busy distracting us from his laziness.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 08:45:43 AM by Callie Del Noire »

Offline Lustful Bride

Re: American Football Players Protesting
« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2017, 09:01:38 AM »
Additionally: patriotism isn’t one blind set of actions, it’s standing up to something that isn’t right and saying ‘No, you move’ because it is wrong. These men are kneeling because the man who should be bring both sides to the table and hashing this out is too busy distracting us from his laziness.

I agree. ^_^ I also feel like what we are seeing now isn't patriotism, it has turned into Nationalism, an extreme and harmful version of it.

Patriotism: I love my country, in the good and bad times. For better or for worse.

Nationalism: I love my country because it is always good. It is never wrong, and if you disagree you are wrong!

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: American Football Players Protesting
« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2017, 09:16:32 AM »
I agree. ^_^ I also feel like what we are seeing now isn't patriotism, it has turned into Nationalism, an extreme and harmful version of it.

Patriotism: I love my country, in the good and bad times. For better or for worse.

Nationalism: I love my country because it is always good. It is never wrong, and if you disagree you are wrong!

Oh dear god, I’ve never been so depressed about my country. I can’t watch the news without getting angry, I’ve had to step away from Facebook because friends I’ve known for 30+ years are saying things like revoking citizenship and deporting people who are AMERICANS and comparing them to Isis.

I need a drink and it’s not even noon.


Offline Cognitive Brainfart

Re: American Football Players Protesting
« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2017, 01:50:06 PM »
Leave it to Huff Post to turn everything into white supremacy. Honestly, the same as athletes should be able to kneel, they should also be able to stand if they wish to.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/white-athletes-still-standing-for-the-anthem-are-standing_us_59c8acbbe4b0f2df5e83afcd

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: American Football Players Protesting
« Reply #45 on: September 26, 2017, 01:57:10 PM »
its weirdly paradoxically comforting to see evidence that someone on this side of the issue is  also an idiot. 'Drunkest guy at the party' situation in action, i guess.

Offline DeamonbaneTopic starter

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Re: American Football Players Protesting
« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2017, 04:10:24 PM »
Snip
Thank you for your contribution. That was an enlightening read :)

Edit: I can't say I've ever taken anything the Huffington Post has posted seriously.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 04:12:59 PM by Deamonbane »

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: American Football Players Protesting
« Reply #47 on: September 26, 2017, 05:18:47 PM »
Thank you for your contribution. That was an enlightening read :)

Edit: I can't say I've ever taken anything the Huffington Post has posted seriously.

Sorry my feeling today is that a lot of otherwise rational people I know and care about have lost their mind.. So was that genuine or sarcasm. After the three phone calls from folks I know over what I put on Facebook yesterday I honestly can’t tell anymore.

Offline DeamonbaneTopic starter

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Re: American Football Players Protesting
« Reply #48 on: September 26, 2017, 05:28:50 PM »
Genuine, sorry if it felt like sarcasm. It's nice to have a word in from the folks that everyone seems to be speaking for lately.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: American Football Players Protesting
« Reply #49 on: September 26, 2017, 05:39:57 PM »
Genuine, sorry if it felt like sarcasm. It's nice to have a word in from the folks that everyone seems to be speaking for lately.

Had to ask.. my bs, sarcasm detection meters are blown and my patience and bottle of double cask are in low supply