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Author Topic: 7 classical lightsaber forms are the still relevent?  (Read 649 times)

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Offline ImmortalForceuserTopic starter

7 classical lightsaber forms are the still relevent?
« on: September 16, 2017, 09:27:25 PM »
shi cho to juyo, are they still relevent in the new canon?

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: 7 classical lightsaber forms are the still relevent?
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2017, 10:19:30 PM »
I'd say that at this point they are mostly lost to history. Luke was a basic user of Shien himself, likely taught to him during his short stay with Yoda. At the end of the films, all three of those skilled enough to pass on the different lightsaber styles are dead.

It's the strongest reason I can find as to why Rey was able to beat Ren so easily. Sure, she had a lot of raw power, but even a wounded blademaster (someone who could fight in at least one of the seven styles at a mastery level) could easily pick apart a powerful force-user who was using her lightsaber for the first time.

Again, this is the Kylo Ren that trained under Luke and whoever Snoke is, so unless Rey magically learned how to duel in the few seconds in which she held the weapon, we have to face the fact that Kylo Ren just really isn't that good with a lightsaber.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: 7 classical lightsaber forms are the still relevent?
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2017, 10:34:39 PM »
I'd say that at this point they are mostly lost to history. Luke was a basic user of Shien himself, likely taught to him during his short stay with Yoda. At the end of the films, all three of those skilled enough to pass on the different lightsaber styles are dead.

It's the strongest reason I can find as to why Rey was able to beat Ren so easily. Sure, she had a lot of raw power, but even a wounded blademaster (someone who could fight in at least one of the seven styles at a mastery level) could easily pick apart a powerful force-user who was using her lightsaber for the first time.

Again, this is the Kylo Ren that trained under Luke and whoever Snoke is, so unless Rey magically learned how to duel in the few seconds in which she held the weapon, we have to face the fact that Kylo Ren just really isn't that good with a lightsaber.
Considering that I think Rey is a boring mary sue I'd bet on the former eventuality over Ren not being good with a lightsaber.

And no proficiency with a staff is not translatable into proficiency with sword of magnetically contained plasma. It's like saying if you can use a quarterstaff you can use a longsword without ever hurting yourself.

Offline ImmortalForceuserTopic starter

Re: 7 classical lightsaber forms are the still relevent?
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2017, 08:37:50 AM »
the way i see that battle going down is ray only won because she was the fresh fighter in the fight kylo was shot by chewwy and wounded. successfully tracked down two people while wounded and fough  fin too  plus theres a theory floating around that ray is a wound in the force similer to meetra surik from kotor 2 if you want i could post that vid here so every one could watch it

Offline Inkidu

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Re: 7 classical lightsaber forms are the still relevent?
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2017, 10:14:45 AM »
I generally will attribute it to bad writing and JJ Abrams before I believe he played KotOR II. :|

Also, it's worth pointing out that Ren is a much, much stronger force user than Rey, which makes her sudden aptitude and ability to beat him even more stark and contrived.

Offline ImmortalForceuserTopic starter

Re: 7 classical lightsaber forms are the still relevent?
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2017, 10:24:51 AM »
if thats the case reys hair should have spiked up and turned blond... super jakkuian! :P

Offline DelightfullyMAD

Re: 7 classical lightsaber forms are the still relevent?
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2017, 05:19:09 PM »
the way i see that battle going down is ray only won because she was the fresh fighter in the fight kylo was shot by chewwy and wounded. successfully tracked down two people while wounded and fough  fin too  plus theres a theory floating around that ray is a wound in the force similer to meetra surik from kotor 2 if you want i could post that vid here so every one could watch it

Yeah, that may play a part, but it still didn't sit well with a lot of fans.  Same as people trying to explain Rey's skill with a lightsaber by saying she was good with a staff, not understanding that the skill required to use two different weapons is in fact very different.  It would be like me, who has skill in using handguns, suddenly being a crack marksman with a rifle.  Sure, the general premise is the same, but the handling, the feel, and pretty much everything else is just too different for you to just pick it up and be a master, or even competent.

As for Kylo being weakened and Rey being fresh, yeah, an argument could be made.  But the counter argument could be made that even given that, a master of kung fu would likely still be able to take out a white belt, even if the master was tired.  The skill level is just too vast for it to have made a lot of sense.

From a narrative perspective, Rey winning her fight with Kylo actually removed a lot of the tension for their future fight.  Kylo got his ass kicked by someone with a fraction of his skill and experience, and now he's going to fight her again when she HAS actually gained that skill and experience?  I just don't see that going well for him, which would then make him a true joke of a villain.

The reason the final battle between Darth Vadar and Luke had the tension it did, other than the obvious family drama, was the fact that in their first real confrontation, Vadar straight up kicked Lukes ass.  There was a feeling of threat from Vadar that we then went into the final fight with.  If, instead, Luke had beat the shit out of Vadar in Cloud City, the final battle would simply not have the same tension.  Luke would be that much more powerful and skilled, which would make any difficulty he showed unbelievable.  That, at least for me, is why Kylo loosing to Rey in the first movie was just a bad writing decision.

As for the forms (getting back on topic after derailing it, my apologies), I would say maybe, but that this would also be a good time to develop some new ones, at least if the movie writers and Disney are interested in actual world building.  Most of the forms are probably lost to history, with only the ones Luke knowing about surviving, and also likely the forms known by Snoke and passed down to Kylo.  I would like to see the other forms, but given the context of the Star Wars universe right now, I'm not sure it would make a lot of sense.  All the major Force traditions are more or less dead, the Sith are basically gone, the Jedi are basically gone, so it's pretty much a clean slate.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: 7 classical lightsaber forms are the still relevent?
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2017, 05:48:09 PM »
Considering that I think Rey is a boring mary sue I'd bet on the former eventuality over Ren not being good with a lightsaber.

And no proficiency with a staff is not translatable into proficiency with sword of magnetically contained plasma. It's like saying if you can use a quarterstaff you can use a longsword without ever hurting yourself.
I am under no impressing that skill with a staff translates to skill with a saber. Maybe if it had been a saberstaff (double-edged), but even then, doubtful.

In the end, Ren duels Fin first and manages to get himself wounded even by someone with less than overpowering/Mary Sueing skill than Rey. He steps into the fight wounded and still manages to be cocky and overconfident. Nah, I'm sticking with Ren just being a terrible fighter with a lightsaber (shown by his selection of weapon, above all else) and just managed to survive because all other lightsaber users are dead or otherwise disappeared.

Again, this depends on precisely who Snoke is, but by my mind (headcanon-ish) all of the lightsaber styles of combat have mostly disappeared with the Jedi Purge and the death of both living Sith. What might come from study of old holocrons or even new styles would take decades to show in any comprehensive way.

Offline Missy

Re: 7 classical lightsaber forms are the still relevent?
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2017, 06:01:41 PM »
There's no reason to believe the Sith (and by extension Snoke) don't utilize the same lightsaber combat techniques as the Jedi for a millenia. Given the two factions are mortal enemies, it makes even more sense they would intend to understand intimately and utilize one anothers saber combat styles.

The poor writing of Disneyverse Star Wars more thna likely comes from the new writing staffs take on the force. As qouted from the Rogue One trailer (and I imagine somewhere in the movie itself) "The Force can make one man feel like a hundred" (which for some reason is exceedingly more effective for mysterious Rey over Kylo Ren (who is not a "Darth" for some reason), bear in mind Ren is a Skywalker which is another family of exceedingly powerful force users. Perhaps Skywalkers have a mysterious history, but at this rate even more powerful mysterious lineage of force users are goign to start popping up all over the place. In the Force Awakens Rey uses an advanced technique from a power she thought ws mythical until the day before, it's only a matter of time before you get a smiliar character popping up out of nowhere with no training or experience deciding to move an entire planet halfway across the galaxy on a whim (using the force).

The reality: Disney makes up for shoddy writing by buying up a theme with a strongly established fanbase.

Offline DelightfullyMAD

Re: 7 classical lightsaber forms are the still relevent?
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2017, 06:11:46 PM »
Yeah, this is definitely par the course for Disney.  The way the Force has been handled has been rather clumsy thus far, and what annoys me more is that a lot of people I know who are fans are perfectly happy going along with some of the dumbest reasons for why the writing choices were okay.  The problem is that a lot of people are perfectly happy using the whole 'It's the Force, it doesn't have to make sense" excuse, such as explaining why Rey was able to use an advanced Force ability, which has been established is an ability that requires a lot of practice to use, and she was able to do it without even knowing it was a thing.  The excuse I hear, however, is that the Force just decided to do it, because plot.

Being a world builder myself, basic mistakes like this just bug the crap out of me, and people trying to just rationalize it away by just saying 'it's fantasy' bugs me even more.  There still needs to be strong internal consistency for readers/watchers to become invested, and when you just throw internal logic and consistency out the window just to add cool scenes, it degrades the whole.  Maybe I'm just nitpicking, but I don't think so.  Hell, I'm not even a Star Wars fanboy, and what is being done is annoying me.

As for the Jedi and Sith both knowing the same styles, yeah that's probably true.  Like I said, I'm not a huge Star Wars fanboy, so my knowledge of all the deeper workings are admittedly limited, but from a logical perspective it definitely makes sense that both the Sith and Jedi would use the same styles, yet would also have at least one or two which would be more exclusive.  That being said, both the Jedi and Sith are pretty much kaput at this point in the series, and likely new Force traditions will be rising in their place, so I think it would be appropriate for new styles and techniques to be brought in to further demonstrate this change.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: 7 classical lightsaber forms are the still relevent?
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2017, 06:56:53 PM »
There's no reason to believe the Sith (and by extension Snoke) don't utilize the same lightsaber combat techniques as the Jedi for a millenia. Given the two factions are mortal enemies, it makes even more sense they would intend to understand intimately and utilize one anothers saber combat styles.

The poor writing of Disneyverse Star Wars more thna likely comes from the new writing staffs take on the force. As qouted from the Rogue One trailer (and I imagine somewhere in the movie itself) "The Force can make one man feel like a hundred" (which for some reason is exceedingly more effective for mysterious Rey over Kylo Ren (who is not a "Darth" for some reason), bear in mind Ren is a Skywalker which is another family of exceedingly powerful force users. Perhaps Skywalkers have a mysterious history, but at this rate even more powerful mysterious lineage of force users are goign to start popping up all over the place. In the Force Awakens Rey uses an advanced technique from a power she thought ws mythical until the day before, it's only a matter of time before you get a smiliar character popping up out of nowhere with no training or experience deciding to move an entire planet halfway across the galaxy on a whim (using the force).

The reality: Disney makes up for shoddy writing by buying up a theme with a strongly established fanbase.
Again, we're not sure who Snoke is, and a Force User (no matter how powerful) does not a Sith or Jedi make, as a substantial amount of knowledge gathered by both cults would come into the training of apprentices. Which is why (again, headcanon) I am of the personal opinion that Snoke is just a user of the Dark Side of the Force, otherwise he would have bestowed the title of Darth to his apprentice, as seen with Maul, Tyranus and subsequently Vader. Unless they're digging into the deep, deep histories prior to Darth Bane's establishment of the Rule of Two and saying that there were more Sith than Vader and Sidious, it's safe to say that Snoke is either a survivor of the Jedi Purge, a Sith Lord thought to be long dead, or just one of the many other Dark Side users, of which there were many, like the Witches of Dathomir.

None of which ever came close to the level of power and skill that the Sith held, which is why the Sith are held to be the Jedi's greatest foes and threat. With... you know, good reason.

Like DMad is saying, the Sith and the Jedi are gone. Their last remnant is Luke, who is seen in the trailer as saying that it's time for the Jedi to go the way of the Dodo. It's time for new ways of using the force to come to the universe that is a long time ago and in a galaxy far, far away.

Offline ImmortalForceuserTopic starter

Re: 7 classical lightsaber forms are the still relevent?
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2017, 08:44:56 PM »
well if the classical lightsaber forms are lost knowlegdeit would make sense for kylo to be shit in terms of lightsaber skill i cant see snoke having the librarys  on the force like sidious had sidious doesnt strike me as a person willing to share knolegde unless your his aprentese so snoke and kylo may vary well bei going from scratch mayby retooling shii cho from scratch is the best kylo  its the most basic form being good at miltiple foes at once having one foe  who can feel the force puts you even with that styleall be it im basing this on how kreia described shii cho from kotor 2 but say kylo using makashi, hed straight up one hit ray

Offline DelightfullyMAD

Re: 7 classical lightsaber forms are the still relevent?
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2017, 09:01:39 PM »
well if the classical lightsaber forms are lost knowlegdeit would make sense for kylo to be shit in terms of lightsaber skill i cant see snoke having the librarys  on the force like sidious had sidious doesnt strike me as a person willing to share knolegde unless your his aprentese so snoke and kylo may vary well bei going from scratch mayby retooling shii cho from scratch is the best kylo  its the most basic form being good at miltiple foes at once having one foe  who can feel the force puts you even with that styleall be it im basing this on how kreia described shii cho from kotor 2 but say kylo using makashi, hed straight up one hit ray

That could be true, and we do know that Kylo Ren is still considered an apprentice, so that is not unreasonable.  However, if Kylo is less than a master with a lightsaber, then Rey would be far behind even him.  The fact that even Finn, who has neither training with a lightsaber or the Force could stand up to him for as long as he did was rather absurd, and not necessarily because I disagree with your assessment.  If anything, it just demonstrates my point in regards to the fact that the first movie pretty much killed the tension and menace of Kylo rather than enhancing it.  That is just not a good thing to do for your main villain, and no, Snoke is not the main villain.  He's the bigger villain, but he's not the main one, any more than the Emperor was the main villain over Vadar in the original films.

That being said, I would like to see if Kylo does come back with more skill and an actual saber style in the next movie (though I doubt it).  I would also like him to actually kick the crap out of Rey the next round, if only to at least try and salvage some degree of villain cred.  If Rey just ends up taking him out a second time, then any sense of menace or threat Kylo might pose will just vanish in a puff of... Snoke.

(That last bit was horrible and I am deeply ashamed... :P)
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 09:03:11 PM by DelightfullyMAD »

Offline ImmortalForceuserTopic starter

Re: 7 classical lightsaber forms are the still relevent?
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2017, 09:13:43 PM »
puff of snoke XD that was good kylo and ray aside the real fight i see is luke vs snoke luke has displayed skill with shein more specificly djem so and on top of that he bested the jedi killer darth vader some one who killed jedi masters with seemingly ease order 66's jedi temple raid it took  THE master of soresu to defeat aniken/vader and that was before he re tooled his entire fighting style with the cybernetics and in rebels he straight up put asohka in a stand still thats me beliveing asohka isnt a slouch with her duel weilding lightsaber style any way im rambling  simple fact snoke better bring some crazy skills or lukes going to squish him

Offline DelightfullyMAD

Re: 7 classical lightsaber forms are the still relevent?
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2017, 09:30:36 PM »
Quote
puff of snoke XD that was good

Really :P?  Damn, looks like I need to work on making my puns even worse :D.

Luke vs. Snoke is pretty much the only thing I am actually looking forward to with the next movie.  I was overall very unimpressed with Star Wars Episode 7: A New Hope II, and it left me with little real incentive to see the next one.  I will, of course, it is still Star Wars, so I will give it at least one watch, but I'm not holding out a lot of hope.  Still, I am at least a bit interested in Snoke, and that mystery is one of the big draws for me to go back.

Me personally, though, I actually hope Snoke doesn't even use a lightsaber.  I think it would be far more interesting, and far more threatening, if Snoke were to display enough power in the Force that he can pretty much fight indirectly.  Hell, at the very least I would be fine with him going Kreia and using floating lightsabers rather than fighting hand-to-hand.  Not the most original, I know, but this was one of the things that annoyed me about Yoda in the Prequels.  It just never seemed right for him to use a lightsaber, and it similarly feels odd, given what we've seen of the guy, for Snoke to use one, being as decrepit looking as he is.

Offline ImmortalForceuserTopic starter

Re: 7 classical lightsaber forms are the still relevent?
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2017, 09:39:59 PM »
snoke with floating lightsabers would be a real threat to some one with lukes skill set i may be wrong but isnt shien good for defence with multiple blasters and single saber wielders? wich means it may be up to ren to betray and a combined effort from ray ren and fin to fight snoke  wild speculation at this point

Offline DelightfullyMAD

Re: 7 classical lightsaber forms are the still relevent?
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2017, 09:50:15 PM »
That could be, but I doubt that such a betrayal from Kylo would be happening in the next movie.  It just doesn't make any narrative sense.  Hell, I actually don't want to see him redeemed at all, mainly because such a plot point would be far too obvious and be such a mirror of Vadar's redemption that it really would cement these movies as just copy and pasting from the originals.  Having Kylo fight to the bitter end would at least present some different opportunities than him turning back to the good side, and I at least would much rather see that.  That is just me though.

That being said, Snoke going 1 on 3 with Rey, Luke, and Finn would be pretty cool for the second movie finale, with Snoke coming out the victor (possibly with the death of Luke).  It would make Snoke look really threatening, and it would give the protagonists a real drive to finally defeat him in the final movie.  Even more threatening would be for Snoke and Kylo to pull a fighter/wizard thing on the three, with Kylo acting as the meat shield and melee presence, while Snoke assaulted them with his potent Force abilities.  I want to see the villains be truly threatening, not weak like they were in the first movie.  Hell, the Super Storm Trooper (I can't even be bothered to remember her name due to her complete lack of presence) needs a major bad ass moment just to rescue her from being an utter joke, since all she really accomplished in the first movie was getting captured by the good guys and getting knocked out.  And we're supposed to believe that she is some elite bad ass?  They really need to Show not Tell a lot in the next movie.

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: 7 classical lightsaber forms are the still relevent?
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2017, 09:55:15 PM »
The big flaw I felt with Kylo's fighting style, he was trying to emulate Darth Vader to the point of adapting the way grandpappy swung his saber too.  Vader was not quick on his feet so he focused on slower more powerful swings. However like others on this thread has said, most of the styles have more than likely been lost to time. Sure Ren could have READ extensively on how Darth Vader fought and copied it. This would only result in a cookie cutter imitation though.

If a guy who has read about karate or watched the flashy version in movies for years, he would get his butt handed to him by a master who learned from experiencing the real thing it in the same amount of time.

As for the whole Rey vs Ren debacle, I'm not even getting into that as I felt it should have been saved for the next movie or something.

Offline DelightfullyMAD

Re: 7 classical lightsaber forms are the still relevent?
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2017, 10:12:37 PM »
Yeah, I agree that Rey vs Ren should have been saved for the second movie.  However, even if that were the case, I still think that the battle should have ended with a Ren victory, if only to preserve the menace he was supposed to have.

Honestly, a good way they could have done Rey vs. Ren, if they had to have it in the first movie, would have simply been to have Ren, despite his injuries, still overcome Rey.  It could be a close battle, but ultimately Ren comes out on top, only to be stopped by the Death Star exploding.  Very little would need to be changed, but Kylo would have at least established some degree of menace, and it would give Rey a far greater drive to really seek out Luke and learn how to use the Force and learn lightsaber combat so that she would not be taken out next time.  It would also have dispelled some of the criticisms of her being a Mary Sue.  Not all of them, but at least she would have failed at something.

Again getting back to saber styles, if Disney were actually interested in world building, I would love to see at least a few scenes where we simultaneously show Luke training Rey in a specific style (either an existent one, or a new one), and also have Ren training with Snoke in the same fashion.  And go into actual detail about the style, it's strengths and weaknesses, rather than just showing Rey and Luke bashing their sabers together for a few minutes.  I don't think that will happen, but I would like to see it.

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: 7 classical lightsaber forms are the still relevent?
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2017, 10:24:02 PM »
I'd really like to think that some bits and pieces survived. By this point in the timeline whoever survived the Clone Wars has more than likely passed onto the Force. That said maybe a few of them still took on apprentices like Kanan and Erza in Rebels and taught what little was left. By the time those apprentices grew old and took on students themselves, those fighting techniques evolved into something new. 

I would really love to see Rey and Ren develop new lightsaber styles from the old in preparation for their rematch. Kinda like how Mace Windu and his Padawan created Vaapad from Juyo.

Offline Naughty Miss Adventure

Re: 7 classical lightsaber forms are the still relevent?
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2017, 02:24:04 AM »
Unfortunately, the way I see things is that Disney intends to do away with the old and introduce their own vision for Star Wars.  I'm almost convinced that if possible, if they can, Disney would like to disassociate the Star Wars brand name from its original roots with Lucas.  I really can't see very much evidence that would indicate they would even bother to bring back the old lightsaber forms as the main connection between the Force Awkens and the previous six installments is mostly to be found in Luke, Leia, and Han.  Oh, right, they killed off Han.  One down, two to go (and there are only two films left, hmmm).

It's a shame, because I think acquire the franchise has more or less gotten Disney's head all swollen up - they could make a good Star Wars movie if they wanted to (heck, Rebels is awesome), but now it feels like its about making a statement.

I feel like ranting further (I grew up with Star Wars!) but this wouldn't be the place to do it ;D

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: 7 classical lightsaber forms are the still relevent?
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2017, 07:20:52 AM »
Technically, 2 down, one to go. :(

RIP Carrie Fisher.

Offline ImmortalForceuserTopic starter

Re: 7 classical lightsaber forms are the still relevent?
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2017, 07:54:22 AM »
the only reason han was killed off is becose ford wanted out thats why lucas carbon froze him in empire strikes back its no secret ford doesnt like the star wars thing

Offline DiktatrSquid

Re: 7 classical lightsaber forms are the still relevent?
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2017, 08:01:57 PM »
Actually, the seven forms ARE canon in Disney era.

You see, Disney bought Star Wars in 2012. Some time after that, there was a thing called "Journey to Star Wars: The Force Awakens", which was an initiative in which several different authors wrote 19 works related to the upcoming movie in 2015. Included were novels, comics, short stories and other books. This was all a part of the new official canon.

One of those books was called "Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need to Know". And this book identifies the 7 forms, largely in the way in which they were depicted in the old EU aka "Legends".

Another piece evidence can be found in the Star Wars: Rebels animated series which is a Disney production.
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
In episode 18 of the 2nd season, Shroud of Darkness, Ahsoka is viewing a holocron, in which a hologram of Anakin Skywalker gives instructions and demonstrations on refining Form IV (Ataru).

I would like to add that Disney has given other subtle recognition to Expanded Universe in other instances.
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
They consider the CG Clone Wars series canon, and in that we see Korriban (although spoken of with a different name), and when there, Yoda comes across the ghost of Darth Bane, referring him to the creator of Rule of Two. Two more signs are in Rebels. First one being the way that mandalorians have been developed largely by Expanded Universe before, has a strong presence in both Clone Wars and in Rebels. Not to mention that in Rebels the main cast, Ahsoka and several villains, including Maul and Darth Vader visit Malachor V, which made its first mention and first appearance in Bioware's "Old Republic" series. First mention being in Knights of the Old Republic, and first appearance in Knights of the old Republic II. Again, these games are pre-Disney expanded universe,
 and Malachor V appeared in Rebels.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: 7 classical lightsaber forms are the still relevent?
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2017, 02:42:12 PM »
We know that they are canon, but as of the Jedi Purge and Return of the Jedi, the forms have been rendered... extinct? I would say irrelevant, but that's clearly not the case (I'M LOOKING AT YOU, BEN!). Bane was accepted as canon after the Phantom Menace and was even mentioned in the novelization. It would make sense for them to keep him (if discarding most of his story, which was covered in a book trilogy) as the originator of the Rule of Two.

I haven't watched Rebels, so I didn't know that they had canonized the events of Malachor V. Kinda gives me hope that they'll do the same for Revan, Bastila, Malak and the rest of the KOTOR I and II gang.