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Author Topic: Being evil in games is hard?  (Read 1140 times)

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Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Being evil in games is hard?
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2017, 11:29:53 PM »
Lawful Evil abides to their own laws/morality code and are often the most successful evils.
Neutral Evil is merely out to promote their own selfish gain/interests.
Chaotic Evil generally does whatever the hell they want with no care towards law, order, life, and goodness.


I'd argue that a Neutral or even Chaotic Evil character can still follow a code/set of rules, but it's explicitly a self-imposed one that they create and voluntarily choose to adhere to - no one else gets to tell them what they're allowed to do. A Lawful Evil character takes the rules imposed externally by society and subverts them to their own benefit - they're generally the most successful because pretending to adhere to the social norms gives them camouflage while they go about enriching themselves at the expense of others. Their Neutral and Chaotic counterparts are indifferent or actively hostile to those social norms, which makes them stick out and get more negative attention in turn.

Toward that end, I'd amend Boba Fett from your list up to LE, and move The Punisher down to NE. Fett is a bounty hunter, accepting legal contracts to hunt criminals in exchange for money. Those contracts might be issued by an evil Empire, but they still are the legal authorities (and as far as the oldcanon went, he happily kept working for the New Republic doing the same job). In contrast, Frank Castle is an explicitly extra-legal vigilante who brutally murders bad guys the authorities can't legally touch.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 11:36:17 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Beorning

Re: Being evil in games is hard?
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2017, 04:48:21 AM »
From your description, Fett should be LN or TN, IMHO. The Punisher should in be in the Neutral category, too...

Offline Drake Valentine

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Re: Being evil in games is hard?
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2017, 08:13:53 AM »
Punisher, depending on how written, can be LE. He operates on his own set rules and pretty much kills whomever he believes has no right to live, then he is LE. Lawful in the sense of following his rules., evil in the sense of ruthless murder/torture. He is an extreme vigilante.

Boba Fett commits evil as self serving. His concern for profits and his total lack of empathy for his targets clearly display this when Darth Vader specifically asks him for "no disintegrations."  That makes him NE.

Offline Beorning

Re: Being evil in games is hard?
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2017, 08:57:15 AM »
Punisher, depending on how written, can be LE. He operates on his own set rules and pretty much kills whomever he believes has no right to live, then he is LE. Lawful in the sense of following his rules., evil in the sense of ruthless murder/torture. He is an extreme vigilante.

Yeah, but he also shows compassion and, usually, he doesn't attack people who aren't ruthless criminals themselves. Definitely not saying that killing criminals is okay... but it's not like he's some kind of serial killer who murders people without reason.

Going by the Pathfinder write-up of the Good / Evil axis, Evil is about lack of remorse and compassion, trampling other people's rights and well-being in pursuit of personal goals etc. I am not a big fan of Frank Castle, but this is not who he is.

Quote
Boba Fett commits evil as self serving. His concern for profits and his total lack of empathy for his targets clearly display this when Darth Vader specifically asks him for "no disintegrations."  That makes him NE.

Isn't this a bit contextual, though? If I understand the Star Wars universe properly, bounty hunting is an established and legal profession there. From this point of view, merely being concerned for profits and being willing to kill the targets aren't necessarily evil - it's just cold professionalism. I don't know, maybe there's more about Fett in the canon that would suggest he really is totally heartless bastard - but merely being a dispassionate bounty hunter doesn't necessarily put Fett into the Evil category.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Being evil in games is hard?
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2017, 10:30:38 AM »
Total lack of empathy and selfishness is a trait on the Good-Evil axis, cementing Fett as E rather than N. His adherence to law, particularly Evil law, is what cements Fett as Lawful rather than Neutral. He doesn't kill people solely for personal desires, he kills/captures them because a legal authority has promised a reward for doing so. That's the sort of 'subverting/working within the law of society for personal gain'  that characterizes Lawful Evil.

As far as Legends continuity went, Fett was sometimes permitted as a great deal more sympathetic at times, more of a Knight Templar. His hatred of Han Solo, for instance, was because Han smuggled spice drugs which indirectly ruined far more people's lives than Boba did directly via bounty hunting. But SW continuity was a mess even before Disney wiped the slate, so it's hard to say.

Punisher does waver sometimes between True Neutral and Neutral Evil depending on how compassionate he is towards innocents/bystanders and how quickly he resorts to torture, but I do still believe that a Lawful alignment is not simply adhering to your own self-made behavioral code, but consenting towards a higher/more collective Law. Someone like Robin Hood, for example, is the quintessential Chaotic Good, and he explicitly holds to his own rules in direct violation of the lawful authority. That is Frank Castle in a nutshell - he does what the authorities can't or won't do, anchoring him firmly in non-Lawful territory. It's his moral alignment component that wavers depending on the writer, but you'll (probably) never see a story where he accepts an amnesty offer and becomes an NYPD officer, because his vigilantism is a core part of his character identity.

Offline Drake Valentine

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Re: Being evil in games is hard?
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2017, 10:51:59 AM »
Yeah, but he also shows compassion and, usually, he doesn't attack people who aren't ruthless criminals themselves. Definitely not saying that killing criminals is okay... but it's not like he's some kind of serial killer who murders people without reason.

Going by the Pathfinder write-up of the Good / Evil axis, Evil is about lack of remorse and compassion, trampling other people's rights and well-being in pursuit of personal goals etc. I am not a big fan of Frank Castle, but this is not who he is.

Isn't this a bit contextual, though? If I understand the Star Wars universe properly, bounty hunting is an established and legal profession there. From this point of view, merely being concerned for profits and being willing to kill the targets aren't necessarily evil - it's just cold professionalism. I don't know, maybe there's more about Fett in the canon that would suggest he really is totally heartless bastard - but merely being a dispassionate bounty hunter doesn't necessarily put Fett into the Evil category.

No, but he ruthlessly kills those that are criminals with little remorse. Wouldn't that evil align to him in terms of how he treats villains? With a variation to the lawful side, he is again acting in his own guidelines and enjoyment(depending on the written variation of character as he has been portrayed as LE and one of the neutrals.) Same can be said for Batman, old school Batman killed criminals.  But we talking older comic versions when he did killed, then he was rewritten to not kill.


Boba Fett is NE cause it is highly speculated he is the one responsible for the Lars family death. Their corpses were found distingerated. Now, it is possible Stormtroopers could done it, but lets look at it in this line of light. I doubt Darth Vader would order ST to kill them over some droids after he left them alone for a good twenty or so years. Secondly, Darth Vader usually prefers to capture people and interrogate them, so it is unlikely he would of gave a shoot to kill order; also he generally does his own dirty work in killing.  Not to forget, given Owen's attitude it is unlikely they would of needed a reason to distingerate them since Owen would of surrendered, but also given them a hard time in finding said droids.

So who does that leave responsible? Boba Fett, the only one that could of killed Lars family and Jawas over some droids. That is if Vader went out outsourcing other search methods such as Bounty Hunters and it does seem odd that Vader told Boba Fett again 'no distingerations,' meaning there is a chance he knew of the Lars Family incident. Could it been another Bounty Hunter? Maybe, but most bounty hunters are afraid of Vader, Boba has no fear of Vader or pretty much anyone for that matter. (After all Boba Fett did fight against Vader if we want to follow one of scripted canon comics; which was obviously one sided fight.)

Another theory is Boba Fett and whatever bounty hunters hired are dirty job types. So Vader is reminding them no killing as he wants them captured alive, something the bounty hunters may not be well verse in. Lets also remember that most bounty hunters are armed with distruptors for distingerating purposes. Vader could also already know of bounty by Jabba and decides to remind Boba he wants them alive, a possibility. Finally Boba Fett could been responsible of killing someone in past that Vader wanted alive or he knew of the rep from another employer. Sadly there isn't much to really go on Boba's past or any thing that may be canon base since Disney took over and Boba Fett only had little screen time.

But for Vader to remind him of no distingeration must merit that Boba has a pretty destructive reputation and likely insubordination streak to go along with it.

Offline Beorning

Re: Being evil in games is hard?
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2017, 11:30:41 AM »
No, but he ruthlessly kills those that are criminals with little remorse. Wouldn't that evil align to him in terms of how he treats villains? With a variation to the lawful side, he is again acting in his own guidelines and enjoyment(depending on the written variation of character as he has been portrayed as LE and one of the neutrals.)

Yes, the Punisher's methods may rightfully be seen as evil, but you need to think of his motivations, too. Whatever you think about his methods, I'd say you have to admit that this is a guy who repeatedly risks his life for the good of other people. He is extreme, unhinged and maybe even cruel, but he doesn't do these things just for his own enjoyment.

BTW. If we put all comic characters that kill criminals without remorse in the Evil category, then many Golden Age characters would have to be considered Evil. Also, Wolverine?

As for Fett, I really don't have too much knowledge about SW canon, so I'll have to agree that he's Evil, if you and Glyph say so.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Being evil in games is hard?
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2017, 11:46:33 AM »
Unless I'm misremembering, the movies had the charred corpses of Owen and Beru visible on screen, so they definitely weren't disintegrated. The stormtroopers probably didn't have explicit orders to kill them, but I doubt they had explicit orders of any kind besides 'find the droids', and Stormtroopers left to their own devices are probably not the merciful type. Plus, they were killed in Episode IV, and Vader didn't even hire Fett until Episode V, so attributing their deaths to him at all before he's even introduced as a character is sort of completely out of left field, let alone evidence of his non-Lawfulness. Nor is there any real evidence of Boba having an insubordinate streak, it's simple enough to assume that when a bounty is 'dead or alive' that he just goes for 'dead' firsthand, and Vader is reminding him that this bounty specifically needs to be taken Alive.

Personally I would peg Movies-only Fett as Lawful Evil and EU Legends Fett as Lawful Neutral-trending-Evil, the only story I've read from his POV shows he distinctly thinks he's a Good Guy by hunting down criminals and lawbreakers. But in either case, his Lawful ethical axis is pretty solid IMO.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 11:49:23 AM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Drake Valentine

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Re: Being evil in games is hard?
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2017, 12:52:55 PM »
Yes, the Punisher's methods may rightfully be seen as evil, but you need to think of his motivations, too. Whatever you think about his methods, I'd say you have to admit that this is a guy who repeatedly risks his life for the good of other people. He is extreme, unhinged and maybe even cruel, but he doesn't do these things just for his own enjoyment.

BTW. If we put all comic characters that kill criminals without remorse in the Evil category, then many Golden Age characters would have to be considered Evil. Also, Wolverine?

As for Fett, I really don't have too much knowledge about SW canon, so I'll have to agree that he's Evil, if you and Glyph say so.

Only those that took pleasure in the killing of criminals. Which again, there have been variations of Punisher character in which he enjoyed killing/torturing villains. Which some variations of Batman could be similar as I recall he wasn't above in torturing bad guys, depending what versions of him. If some are deliberately hunting to kill, than yes, they could be considered evil to some degree.

Unless I'm misremembering, the movies had the charred corpses of Owen and Beru visible on screen, so they definitely weren't disintegrated. The stormtroopers probably didn't have explicit orders to kill them, but I doubt they had explicit orders of any kind besides 'find the droids', and Stormtroopers left to their own devices are probably not the merciful type. Plus, they were killed in Episode IV, and Vader didn't even hire Fett until Episode V, so attributing their deaths to him at all before he's even introduced as a character is sort of completely out of left field, let alone evidence of his non-Lawfulness. Nor is there any real evidence of Boba having an insubordinate streak, it's simple enough to assume that when a bounty is 'dead or alive' that he just goes for 'dead' firsthand, and Vader is reminding him that this bounty specifically needs to be taken Alive.

Personally I would peg Movies-only Fett as Lawful Evil and EU Legends Fett as Lawful Neutral-trending-Evil, the only story I've read from his POV shows he distinctly thinks he's a Good Guy by hunting down criminals and lawbreakers. But in either case, his Lawful ethical axis is pretty solid IMO.

Will leave this here as it better explains conspiracy. http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-reasons-boba-fett-killed-luke-skywalkers-aunt-and-uncle.php

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Being evil in games is hard?
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2017, 12:59:59 PM »
Okay, so if it's explicitly an unfounded/tinfoil hat conspiracy theory, that's fine. Those are fun to read. But at the same time, it can't be fairly included as evidence for something already so circumstantial as an alignment debate.

Offline Spear80Topic starter

Re: Being evil in games is hard?
« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2017, 09:24:10 AM »
Ok, so i open a can of something here. To think that for me it was about the, manly, feels that prevented me from being a complete and total ass in my rpg's. Therefore making being evil hard. And if other people had the same issue.

But there's more to it, it seems. I saw some good points made, delving deep into evil as presented and ove racted in games. Or into the pshyche of characters in whatever medium.

I have since tried a darkside character in swtor, but that's propably a case of a very obvious and crazed loon and psycho, judging by the overacting, still had a laugh or two. And i got a few lightside points for not delivering a woman to her stalker and sexual slavery. Kinda like how my Jedi started getting darkside points the moment he interacted with politicians.

Offline DiktatrSquid

Re: Being evil in games is hard?
« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2017, 09:43:30 AM »
Ok, so i open a can of something here. To think that for me it was about the, manly, feels that prevented me from being a complete and total ass in my rpg's. Therefore making being evil hard. And if other people had the same issue.

But there's more to it, it seems. I saw some good points made, delving deep into evil as presented and ove racted in games. Or into the pshyche of characters in whatever medium.

I have since tried a darkside character in swtor, but that's propably a case of a very obvious and crazed loon and psycho, judging by the overacting, still had a laugh or two. And i got a few lightside points for not delivering a woman to her stalker and sexual slavery. Kinda like how my Jedi started getting darkside points the moment he interacted with politicians.

I don't know which class you were, but I managed to go Dark V on my inquisitor easily without without being a simple psycho lunatic. Every action I took had more to the desicion than "dark side points lol". Hell, I don't even have the alignment symbols visible. Being rational but remorseless did leave space for some LS points to be had when it simply felt like the smarter thing to do.

Offline Mathim

Re: Being evil in games is hard?
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2017, 09:44:53 AM »
If I know for a fact that the game will reward me more for being good, then I'll typically follow the right path, but if there's more to be gained from breaking the rules and being sinister, I'll use that approach as often as possible, without exception. Fallout 3, New Vegas and 4 are where this is most prevalent. I only just started Mass Effect so I haven't gotten that far in but I've been trying to be as nice as possible to everyone (usually after conversing with characters, I get the +2/4/etc. Paragon, which I suppose means I'm some kind of paragon of virtue in the making. Not sure what further benefits are to be gleaned from that or if I've been missing out on better stuff by being a dick, but since I like collecting game trophies, I'll probably have to play it through once more as an evil character to get all of them.

Offline Spear80Topic starter

Re: Being evil in games is hard?
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2017, 02:57:17 AM »
I don't know which class you were, but I managed to go Dark V on my inquisitor easily without without being a simple psycho lunatic. Every action I took had more to the desicion than "dark side points lol". Hell, I don't even have the alignment symbols visible. Being rational but remorseless did leave space for some LS points to be had when it simply felt like the smarter thing to do.

Oh, i was a warrior, and she was definite not all there, intelligent, but all to ready to carve people up. Or to zap them using their collar. So i guess i'm one of those player that overplays the evil, making it harder still, even without the feels, which were still there. Still the cutscenes were fun.