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Author Topic: Diet and Disease  (Read 1495 times)

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Offline SerephinoTopic starter

Diet and Disease
« on: August 23, 2017, 09:07:00 PM »
This is mostly just a rant, but I'm putting it here because of the nature of the topic.  I was looking around on Netflix for something to watch, and saw this documentary about how diet actually relates to disease.  I'm an open minded person and figured what the heck.  I mean, to me anyone making a presentation like this that has an agenda, you take it all with a grain of salt.  Just like the study that a diet rich in dairy can actually help weight loss.  Yeah, well, the study was funded by the dairy industry, so motive there, and I"m not sure what to think.

This documentary though, I could only watch a half hour of it.  It basically blames meat for everything.  Intake of sugar and carbs doesn't cause diabetes, no, not at all!  What really does it is the fatty proteins in meat coat your cells to make them resist the sugar in your blood, which causes higher insulin output, and there you go.  It's like their message was become a vegetarian and you'll never get sick.  But wait...  Part of what they claimed was that a lot of toxins end up in the food that the animals we eat eats.  Of course the toxins end up in their flesh, and then we eat that flesh and are filled with toxins too.  And organic meat is not safer, because pollutants in our air and water do not discriminate which pastures they contaminate.  But then doesn't this also mean that these same toxins contaminating the grass that the cows are munching on are also getting into vegetable crops that we eat?  That was never mentioned.

And then suddenly everything has huge amounts of cholesterol.  Apparently chicken and fish is right up there with beef.  They talk about how chicken is the worst.  They went to fast food chains all across the country and got chicken samples.  All of them had all these carcinogens in them.  So now chicken is the least healthy food for you. 

It's like... come on people!  I am not a scientist, nor would I ever claim to be one.  But honestly I think that anything claiming that something like the disease epidemic in this country can all be boiled down to one thing is bullshit.  Yes, many Americans are overweight and sick.  I myself am no exception.  What do I think the problem is?  Well... a combination actually.  I know I don't get enough physical activity.  Much unlike our ancestors, our lives are filled with machines that make everything so much easier.  Instead of actually getting up and moving to accomplish things we are pressing buttons.

Let's move on to processed food.  I don't like it when I look at the ingredients list and I see a whole bunch of crap I can't pronounce.  Yeah, I know, it's all been declared safe by some scientists.  But remember the dairy helps you lose weight study funded by dairy people?  Yeah, self interest.  I can believe that companies add chemicals into foods to make them taste better so that we'll buy more and they make more money.  Also, preservatives cut down on waste, which in theory is a good thing.  I mean, a grocery store can buy a product and keep it on their shelf for like a year before they have to toss it.  That increases the chance they'll sell it instead of toss it, which helps their pockets.  I'm all for cutting down on waste, but what exactly are all these things I can't pronounce doing to my body?  Again, I'm not a scientist, so I can't say for sure, but personally I find it a little suspect. 

Then pollution.  Yes, this is a problem too.  I don't doubt the documentary's claim that pollutants are in our meat supply entirely.  But it's not just that, it's everywhere.  There is more than just global warming to think about.  I also know that these problems cannot be solved overnight, but we as a species really need to start thinking about it.

So yeah, I think the problem is created by many factors that have joined together to create a perfect storm.  A documentary on how eating meat is the cause of disease... just... ugh! 

Online Oniya

Re: Diet and Disease
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2017, 09:16:55 AM »
They basically lost me at 'went to fast food chains all across the country and got chicken samples'.  And from this, they derive that chicken is the least healthy food for you.  It's like - yeah, we went to kindergartens all across the country and took sample self portraits and determined that human beings have no noses.

Offline RedRose

Re: Diet and Disease
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2017, 11:28:38 AM »
Lack of exercize, fast food, nosh...
One thing that always strikes me in America: many people are "super obese" (not obese like you'd see in Europe) while many others are absolutely skeletal, think the "size 0" concept - this would correspond to a French 32 which is hardly found outside of teenager lines. I have American friends who can hardly walk from obesity. I have many obese French friends too, but they're not that "far". My fashionable French friendsNEVER aim for the equivalent of a size 0, or even 2, possibly not 4. My American fashionista friends might well be a 0 or 2 and praise this as a "beautiful frame"... Cultural.

Offline Iniquitous

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Re: Diet and Disease
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2017, 12:20:06 PM »
Should be noted that in the US a size 10 is considered plus size - which does nothing for a female's self esteem when they go to buy clothing.

Offline Lustful Bride

Re: Diet and Disease
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2017, 12:23:12 PM »
Should be noted that in the US a size 10 is considered plus size - which does nothing for a female's self esteem when they go to buy clothing.

I agree :( I still like buying clothes that are bigger than me because I am embarrassed my clothes that hug my body too much.

When it comes to body weight and size it seems the US has a bad culture of 'all or nothing'. :/

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Diet and Disease
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2017, 12:31:54 PM »
In January I weighed 304 pounds.

Today I weigh 242.2 pounds (alas of this morning) with a goal of 220 by New Years, having met my first Of being 260 by June

Mostly this is due to things like changing parts of my diet, and doing away with most sodas. I have one on the way to work, usually cheerwine or Blood orange, one or two breakfast bars and apple slice or popcorn on break, and pop corn form my afternoon break (plain 100 calorie type) and a moderate dinner and around a gallon or two ice water during the day.

Add in walking during both my breaks and lunch, 1,500-3,000 steps each, and I feel a bit better. I wear shirts and pants I hadn't been comfortable in for years...and now I can take the stairs to my my delight. (My knees are both shot,stepped of the tail of a P-3 and landed like a cat)

Most of my success this time has been changing habits in small increments rather than wild diet changes. When inhear things like chicken being toxic because of what you find at mcdonalds I get a bit nervous. Lots of bad science being thrown out these days.

Offline RedRose

Re: Diet and Disease
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2017, 01:59:24 PM »
Should be noted that in the US a size 10 is considered plus size - which does nothing for a female's self esteem when they go to buy clothing.

OMG!! We can easily find the equivalent of a size 14 in regular shops, sometimes up to much more (18/20)?
It makes no sense... It would place many, many (most?) people as plus size?

Online Oniya

Re: Diet and Disease
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2017, 02:41:11 PM »
OMG!! We can easily find the equivalent of a size 14 in regular shops, sometimes up to much more (18/20)?
It makes no sense... It would place many, many (most?) people as plus size?

Yes.  The fashion industry lost its collective shit long ago.  I don't think it's entirely recovered from the 'heroin chic' of the mid-to-late 90s.

Offline Lilias

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Re: Diet and Disease
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2017, 03:20:55 PM »
Should be noted that in the US a size 10 is considered plus size - which does nothing for a female's self esteem when they go to buy clothing.

Size 6 models are steered towards the plus-sized niche because they can't find work in regular couture. ::)

When ready-to-wear garment sizing was standardised in Britain (in 1948, in the middle of post-war food rationing), size 14 (US 10-12, depending on your conversion table) was determined to be the average Englishwoman. Today, even after so many changes in people's nutritional habits, high street fashion goes no lower than size 8.

Offline Trevino

Re: Diet and Disease
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2017, 06:13:38 PM »


This documentary though, I could only watch a half hour of it.  It basically blames meat for everything.  Intake of sugar and carbs doesn't cause diabetes, no, not at all!  What really does it is the fatty proteins in meat coat your cells to make them resist the sugar in your blood, which causes higher insulin output, and there you go.  It's like their message was become a vegetarian and you'll never get sick.  But wait...  Part of what they claimed was that a lot of toxins end up in the food that the animals we eat eats.  Of course the toxins end up in their flesh, and then we eat that flesh and are filled with toxins too.  And organic meat is not safer, because pollutants in our air and water do not discriminate which pastures they contaminate.  But then doesn't this also mean that these same toxins contaminating the grass that the cows are munching on are also getting into vegetable crops that we eat?  That was never mentioned.


Hate to rain on the meat eating parade, but it is indeed true that those who eat little to no meat will live longer and healthier lives: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4191896/ This has been known for quite some time as a matter of fact. The only real exception is a pescatarian diet (where you include fish and sea food), but even then, you don't do any better than vegetarians if you include fish.

If it's any consolation, vegans will generally have worse health than vegetarians. But not by much!
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 06:16:38 PM by Trevino »

Offline Lustful Bride

Re: Diet and Disease
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2017, 06:16:32 PM »
Hate to rain on the meat eating parade, but it is indeed true that those who eat little to no meat will live longer and healthier lives: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4191896/ This has been known for quite some time as a matter of fact. The only real exception is a pescatarian diet (where you include fish and sea food), but even then, you don't do any better than vegetarians if you include fish.

If it's any consolation, vegans will generally have worse health than vegetarians.

Wont stop me from having a burger, steak, or fish when I desire it. :P So long as I am overall healthy I have the right to eat what I want.

Offline Trevino

Re: Diet and Disease
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2017, 06:18:45 PM »
Wont stop me from having a burger, steak, or fish when I desire it. :P So long as I am overall healthy I have the right to eat what I want.

That's the logic of a smoker :P

My vice is alcohol mostly. At least there the studies are inconclusive regarding health benefits

Offline Lustful Bride

Re: Diet and Disease
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2017, 06:20:09 PM »
That's the logic of a smoker :P

My vice is alcohol mostly. At least there the studies are inconclusive regarding health benefits

Hey we all have to die sometime. Might as well be happy :P


Offline Trevino

Re: Diet and Disease
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2017, 06:26:02 PM »
Hey we all have to die sometime. Might as well be happy :P

What will be your particular emotional state at the moment you have a stroke, or cancer? I wouldn't classify those as particularly happy deaths...

Offline Lustful Bride

Re: Diet and Disease
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2017, 06:28:04 PM »
What will be your particular emotional state at the moment you have a stroke, or cancer? I wouldn't classify those as particularly happy deaths...

I swear that you live to be a kill joy :P

Offline Trevino

Re: Diet and Disease
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2017, 06:32:37 PM »
I swear that you live to be a kill joy :P

Just being a realist :P. Someone has to be one, especially on an RP forum :D

Offline Lilias

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Re: Diet and Disease
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2017, 06:33:13 PM »
If you consider that meat in the US is a lot guiltier than in Europe and most of the rest of the world (because of all the banned chemicals the animals are pumped with), that's the real killjoy right there. :P

Offline Trevino

Re: Diet and Disease
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2017, 06:43:28 PM »
Europe also eats less meat overall, so I'm inclined to think that the effects of chemicals and GMO feed is modest.

It should also be pointed out that the best diets in the world i.e. the Mediterranean and the Okinawa diet, have little to no meat. See, for example, the life expectancy of the Greeks and Okinawa natives: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/magazine/the-island-where-people-forget-to-die.html

Okinawa diet: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/19/japanese-diet-live-to-100
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 09:03:37 AM by Trevino »

Offline Lilias

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Re: Diet and Disease
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2017, 07:04:53 PM »
I can assure you Greeks eat plenty of meat - our fast food staple is kebabs/gyro, after all! ;D What is known as the Mediterranean diet developed in times when meat was not widely available, so people got creative with pulses for protein (incidentally, pulses are the best thing to add to one's diet to negate a lot of adverse effects of other foodstuffs). When you have all the meat you might want, there's little incentive not to have it anyway.

As for the difference in what chemicals are allowed in food between the US and Europe... the chasm is vast, unfortunately. I thought meat and GMOs were the main foci, but I guess I was wrong.

http://www.shape.com/blogs/shape-your-life/13-banned-foods-still-allowed-us

Offline Trevino

Re: Diet and Disease
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2017, 07:42:19 PM »
But do they eat more meat than Americans do, on average? That's the real question, and all indications would imply that they probably don't. In fact, most of the rest of the world consumes far less meat than Americans do on average: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_meat_consumption

Incidentally, the higher up you are on the trophic level, the more toxins that accumulate, so any chemicals or pesticides used will necessarily be more concentrated in meat than in plants. That's why it's recommended that you eat tuna only occasionally to prevent mercury poisoning, to give only the most outstanding example of this. Meat products from America may be worse than their European (or Asian) counterparts, but that doesn't discount the fact that animal flesh in and of itself is the main culprit here.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 09:08:08 AM by Trevino »

Offline RedRose

Re: Diet and Disease
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2017, 09:44:49 AM »
Most Frenchies I know eat meat (generally red) once a day. I would never consider not eating meat often. I actually remember reading the average, and I was slightly under.

Offline SerephinoTopic starter

Re: Diet and Disease
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2017, 10:05:22 AM »
I do think moderation is an important thing.  It's just...  to claim meat is the culprit for everything...  I can go along with eating a lot of burgers will give you coronary disease.  But eating meat causes diabetes?  Seriously, these people, this supposed doctor they interviewed said that sugar consumption has nothing to do with diabetes.  Diabetics are diabetics because they ate meat.  Like, what?

Offline Lilias

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Re: Diet and Disease
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2017, 10:33:05 AM »
But do they eat more meat than Americans do, on average? That's the real question, and all indications would imply that they probably don't. In fact, most of the rest of the world consumes far less meat than Americans do on average: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_meat_consumption

I don't think any other country can top Americans in the excess department, honestly. :-) Even if that table admits to being quite inaccurate in places.

Offline Trevino

Re: Diet and Disease
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2017, 11:54:47 AM »
I do think moderation is an important thing.  It's just...  to claim meat is the culprit for everything...  I can go along with eating a lot of burgers will give you coronary disease.  But eating meat causes diabetes?  Seriously, these people, this supposed doctor they interviewed said that sugar consumption has nothing to do with diabetes.  Diabetics are diabetics because they ate meat.  Like, what?


Do you happen to have the name of this documentary, by chance? I would like to see what they are claiming specifically.... But regarding the link between meat and diabetes, unfortunately they are correct about that one: http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/1697785

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3942738/

At least if it comes to red meat, those who consume it regularly are in fact at a higher risk for type 2 diabetes.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 11:57:50 AM by Trevino »

Online Oniya

Re: Diet and Disease
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2017, 12:37:10 PM »
I'm just going to point out a little 'human nature' thing here:

Doom and gloom doesn't win converts.  You might get 'grudging followers' in a best-case scenario, but not people who are truly interested.

Honestly, it doesn't matter the subject matter; the old phrase holds true:  You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.  I have known many vegetarians over my life.  Some of them approach it with the 'All meat is bad because X'.  We don't talk about food.  Ever.  Some will describe the amazing Indian food that they made over the weekend and I end up scribbling down the recipe and trying to figure out if I can swing getting lentils at the local store.  Heck, I'll even look up recipes for them if they're looking for a specific thing and can't find it.  (And might scribble it down myself.)

Just my half-penny.