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Author Topic: ...wtf...Stalin  (Read 3664 times)

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Online MagicalPenTopic starter

...wtf...Stalin
« on: January 05, 2009, 01:44:09 PM »
To fragment off of this thread: http://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=25359.0


So, from my understanding, in Russia they like to make Hero's out of people, Stalin being one of them. I previously read an article about some boy who turned in his parents (for what reason, I do not know) and he has been hailed as a Soviet Hero (and the youngest one). Some one did some digging, and most of the story about the kid and his background is fabricated, but the tiny village that has a memorial to him survives on the 'tourism' it generates.

As far as Vladimir 'Stalin' Putin, I agree. He has 'stepped down' but still rules the country and is former KGB himself. They are also passing/have passed a bill on Treason that makes (basically) speaking negatively about Russia a Crime punishable by up to 20 years in prison. That one in particular will get passed in the Kremlin as they are sympathetic to Putin and is very Stalin-esque.

Offline Lotherio

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2009, 12:52:34 PM »
I don't want to splinter off this thread either, but making heroes of historic figures is something that every country can take blame in.  Not to go into the details, but there are plenty of good books that look at historical figures from American History and compare them with the fabled version that exists in many elementary education books.  We can't ingore our own historic 'evils' though we try as we might.

Stalin might be one of those figures for Russia.  When you look at the actual history, its shocking at times, but a few good fables got out about him and people tend to believe the myth of the figure over the truth.

Offline Haylie

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2009, 03:25:33 AM »
Rah Rah Rasputin...

Offline Dashenka

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2009, 04:01:42 PM »
Was he banned for posting rubbish? Cause I would 100% understand that.


Stalin made the Sovjet Union into what it was and therefore he deserves to be called a hero. Furthermore to compare Putin to Stalin is the most ridiculous thing ever. It would be to compare Hitler to Obama for that matter. Putin, and Medvedev now, are building Russia from the terrible mess it was left in by every country in the world after, almost every country in the world, pushed the USSR to split up. The entire region, from Kazachstan to Ukraine is one big politically instable region thanks to the USSR splitting up. Putin has brought stability in that region where every other world leader failed to even acknowledge the problem existed. The whole world was focussed on Iraq and Afghanistan and nobody cared shit about the CIS countries. Putin did so don't come crying about all the things he's done wrong, cause in my opinion Putin deserves to be a hero as well and get him a spot next to Lenin on the red square.

What I wonder is why everybody is judging Russia and blaming us for not being free in speech. Don't judge a country you know sh*t about.

I know it's been a while ago since this was posted but being patriotic I can't stand people judging my country, based on stupidities and one sided information always told on western media. Go to Russia, be there for a few years.. then judge and see if you still think that way.

Sorry if I over react.

Offline Lotherio

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2009, 04:59:08 PM »
Stalin made the Sovjet Union into what it was and therefore he deserves to be called a hero.

Sorry if I over react.

You're not overreacting just defending something you believe in.  From my perspective, Stalin is as much a hero for what he has done as much as Thomas Jefferson is a hero for writing "All men are created equal" in the Declaration of Independence while he did not believe that himself, writing in his diary to the effect that the sentiment he wrote in the Declaration was not intended to encompass men of African descent; he believed in the institution of slavery.

My only personal knowledge of Stalin (that I actually researched) involves Russian politics from about the time of the 2nd/October Revolution up to the April decree of 1932 (that outlawed independent artistic associations).  I'm not even upset by the loss of freedom to the artists in Russia under that decree.  It is interesting that Stalin associated with the heroic realists, allowing them to paint the images of Lennon - his patronage of these artist linking him in line of succession to Lennon directly through propaganda in what would become Soviet Socialist Realism, which led to his decree of 1932 because he understood how powerful art could be.

I'm actually more thankful to Stalin, as well as Hitler (Degenerate Art), and even Mussolini (who displaced the futurists) because all of the great artists from those countries came to America when they were persecuted (and in part following general demoralization following WWI for the artists and their home countries roles in the war) and this migration of artists, to an extent, helped shape our country to what it is today, having a large entertainment industry.

Offline Hellis

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2009, 06:14:09 AM »
Was he banned for posting rubbish? Cause I would 100% understand that.


Stalin made the Sovjet Union into what it was and therefore he deserves to be called a hero. Furthermore to compare Putin to Stalin is the most ridiculous thing ever. It would be to compare Hitler to Obama for that matter. Putin, and Medvedev now, are building Russia from the terrible mess it was left in by every country in the world after, almost every country in the world, pushed the USSR to split up. The entire region, from Kazachstan to Ukraine is one big politically instable region thanks to the USSR splitting up. Putin has brought stability in that region where every other world leader failed to even acknowledge the problem existed. The whole world was focussed on Iraq and Afghanistan and nobody cared shit about the CIS countries. Putin did so don't come crying about all the things he's done wrong, cause in my opinion Putin deserves to be a hero as well and get him a spot next to Lenin on the red square.

What I wonder is why everybody is judging Russia and blaming us for not being free in speech. Don't judge a country you know sh*t about.

I know it's been a while ago since this was posted but being patriotic I can't stand people judging my country, based on stupidities and one sided information always told on western media. Go to Russia, be there for a few years.. then judge and see if you still think that way.

Sorry if I over react.


AS i know a lot of rusian immigrants their view is about the opposite of yours. And to "force as to speak. Annexing countries for the "glorius soviet union"? Alot of those countiries hated the russia goverment, and were their own ethnical groups with their own countries to begin with. The age of Empires (lol whut?) are gone.

Offline Dashenka

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2009, 06:38:55 AM »
They were countries in the Soviet Union as well. Russia offers to help them now and if they reject the help it's not like we will invade them. We don't want to be a big empire again. Without the USSR, those countries simply would have stopped existing just like they are now. People might know Uzbekistan or Kyrgizstan but how many know where they are and what they are?

As for those immigrants.... there is a reason they left Russia.. that's all I have to say about it.

Offline Lithos

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2009, 06:45:02 AM »
There is no reason for this thread to be in adult socializing. Someone please move this crap to politics/religion forum so that people can ignore it.

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Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2009, 06:48:21 AM »
Yes, I think this is better suited to politics.

Something to bear in mind .. politics is one of those subjects that people can get very sensitive about. I trust that this discussion will be kept civil ... won't it?

Offline The Overlord

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2009, 07:33:03 AM »


Stalin made the Soviet Union into what it was and therefore he deserves to be called a hero.


At what cost? Stalin killed more of his countrymen than Hitler did. He wasn't a hero he was a monster.


And the Soviet Union wasn't exactly anything to crow about.

Offline Dashenka

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2009, 08:08:26 AM »
It's not the USSR I'm crowing about it's Stalin.

Yes he killed a lot of people, mostly not Russian and therefore not countrymen, but Ukrainians. Not that it makes it less evil don't get me wrong. The Holodomor is the worst holocaust ever, although the Jews claim WW2 was.

But there is so much more to Stalin and now to Putin that the western world doesn't see.
They both dragged the country out of the mud into something good and solid and for that they should be heroes. Not for the things they did wrong because every hero has made mistakes, it's what makes them human.

Offline Zakharra

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2009, 09:42:03 AM »
 They did it at the expense of millions of bodies, restricted freedoms and ignoring the voice of native peoples.  The relocation of millions of people from their native lands caused many deaths. The world wanted the CIS broken up because it was the USSR.

 
Quote
Russia offers to help them now and if they reject the help it's not like we will invade them. We don't want to be a big empire again. Without the USSR, those countries simply would have stopped existing just like they are now. People might know Uzbekistan or Kyrgizstan but how many know where they are and what they are?

As for those immigrants.... there is a reason they left Russia.. that's all I have to say about it.

 The offer to help is at a price some are not willing to pay. The Ukraine for example, does -not- want to be a part of Russia. The lease on the Black Sea port will run out, what will Russia do when it stands to loose that port? 

 Without Russia, those countries would be different, possible better or worse. They are in Central Asia and have large oil and natural gas reserves. One of them has the Russian spaceport in it. I can imagine the fit Russia would pitch if they lost that. You say that Russia doesn't want to be an empire again, yet the world is seing Putin as trying to ressurrect the USSR.

 The immigrants left Russia for several reasons. 1, they wanted to live. 2, they wished to improve their lives. Living under the conditions of enforced servitude. 3, they wished to be free of an oppressive government, whether of the Czars or the USSR.

 Stalin did -wonderous- things, but at an awful cost in shattered human lives. Over all, Stalin's evils overwhelm his hero- status.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 09:55:52 AM by Zakharra »

Offline Dashenka

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2009, 09:50:25 AM »
I agree that they do not want to be part of Russia, neither do we want them to be part of us but how many help is still going from Russia to those countries.

Without Russia's support to eastern Ukraine and all their mines, their economy would simply collapse. The same goes for the other CIS countries. They don't want to be part of Russia but can't exist without the help we sent them. The only countries that are better off now than they were before are Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia and every other country formerly in the USSR, from Ukraine to Kazachstan will crumble down and eventually collapse if Russia is cutting all strings.

It happened in Georgia and see where they ended up.

Offline Zakharra

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2009, 09:58:59 AM »
 Their economies would change to suite, connecting more to Europe than to Russia. Russia's help comes with sometroublesome strings attached and Russia is not above using it's economic influence to try and get it's way. The gas pipelines that run through the Ukraine for example. If the Ukraine and/or Europe does something it doesn't like, a 'problem' might develope and the gas flow slows or stops for a time.

Offline Dashenka

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2009, 10:08:55 AM »
This gas problem was because Ukraine isn't paying it's bills and was stealing the gas Russia was pumping to Europe. Europe then comes crying to Russia for gas while the problem is Ukraine stealing it. The only logical answer then is to simply close the tabs.

Ukraine is tending towards Europe yes and Georgia is too but how can Armenia, Azerbaijan, Kazachstan and all the other CIS countries tend to European economy to help them out?

The only economies they can 'tend to' is the middle east or Russia's. They pick Russia. Now I foresee you bringing up the argument that they don't have anything to choose from and I agree but they need help and we give it to them. But our help isn't free as nothing on this world is. So those 'strings' are at every trade deal at every country.

Offline Zakharra

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2009, 12:26:23 PM »
 I agree that monetary aid usually has a string attached by any nation that is just handing it out. Russia's strings seem to have iron chains attached though. To the world, it's as if the Iron curtain is being rebuilt.

 The gas line issue is a questionable one since it is state run. Many think it's more than that. Political in nature. The natural gas is being used as a club.

 The Central Asian nations can look to India or China as well as Russia.

Offline Dashenka

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2009, 12:41:12 PM »
You don't pay the bill, we cut you off... how is that any different when it's state owned or privately owned?

I'm curious too for an example of that iron chain that you say is attached to the strings on monetary aid deals from Russia...

Offline Zakharra

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2009, 01:06:13 PM »
 Restricted rights of free speech. Which -is- a real concern by humanitarian groups, many which are libreal, the concetration of power in the government, nationalization of businesses. Given the history of Russia, it makes other nations nervous and suspicious.

 The chains are that the governments Russia deals with, will take a line more in tune with what Russia wants. Belarus is following it, with a lot of Russian money and aid being put into their country.

 According to some news stories I've seen, the Ukraine has paid Russia. The company that they paid it to hadn't paid it to the Russian company. As it stands, the issue seems to have been resolved.

Offline Zakharra

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2009, 01:18:30 PM »
 This thread is about Stalin though. The man was literally a monster with what he did to his own people. He did great things, but they were of among the most terrible sort. He's at least, on par with Hitler.

Offline Silk

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2009, 06:42:52 PM »
In a round about way its better that some people like hitler and putin did exist, because it gives humanity the harsh lessons it needs to get its ass in gear.

Offline Zakharra

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2009, 08:02:47 PM »
 Perhaps, but the cost to put down someone like Hitler is a very high price. We have to be willing to pay the price to remove a man like Hitler or Stalin though.

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Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2009, 08:52:29 PM »
Perhaps, but the cost to put down someone like Hitler is a very high price. We have to be willing to pay the price to remove a man like Hitler or Stalin though.

As the saying goes, 'Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it'.  Hopefully, the lesson will be memorable enough that the price will not have to be paid often.

Offline Schwarzepard

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2009, 08:53:43 PM »
Every time history repeats itself, the price goes up.

Offline Dashenka

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2009, 03:58:56 AM »
Stop comparing Putin to Hitler for crying out loud. There are NO similarities what so ever.


People like Hitler, and maybe Stalin according to most of you, existed to murder and to kill.
Putin never killed anybody and is doing good things for his country. Something not many countries can say about their presidents. Call me stubborn or narrow minded but for me Putin is somebody, just like Stalin, who helped Russia from the gutter into something beautiful.

Offline The Overlord

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2009, 07:56:55 AM »

Putin hasn't killed anyone that we know of, but that's another story. Putin is old KGB, and at least to some Western eyes, he's someone to be wary of, as he may be perceived as someone that wants to rehang the Iron Curtain. At the same time I think he's a shrewd and pragmatic man that will listen to reason now that the Oval Office once more has someone that listens to reason. We can only hope Putin and Obama will find some common ground.