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Author Topic: Star Wars sequels  (Read 47 times)

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Online HailLuciferTopic starter

Star Wars sequels
« on: Today at 01:29:40 AM »
Opinions? I personally love them. I grew up on the OT and I feel like I’m the only long term fan that actually likes the prequels. Most the prequel fan base got introduced to Star Wars through the prequels, which is totally fine and awesome!

Online HailLuciferTopic starter

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #1 on: Today at 01:30:53 AM »
Lmao I meant sequels. But for the record, I like the prequels too. My brain is fuzzy rn because it’s late and I have a migraine.

Offline Bly

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #2 on: Today at 11:51:46 AM »
Moved this thread to Off Topic, as the Off Topic section is more germane for Star Wars. :)

Online Fierbali111

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #3 on: Today at 05:27:27 PM »
I found they were very rough. It's hard to relate to Rey as she's pretty unstoppable, feels no fear, and has no real attachments to anyone. She also outclasses her teachers( Han and Luke, who both then die soon after) within minutes, showing no need to improve on anything really, even all the jedi texts (which she never even glanced at) which were then blown up by yoda, maybe as a nod off in an attempt to destroy what the old movies and characters represented.

Finn i found was much more relatable, and it was unfortunate to see him reduced to even more of a gag in the second movie when he showed major character development from being a coward wanting to run from the first order, to then face off against kylo ren in a 1 on 1 lightsaber duel in order to save his new friend. With the actions he took, you could see the fear and hesitation in his eyes and the incredible will it took to push forward and overcome them, something greater than fancy force powers will ever be.
« Last Edit: Today at 05:29:14 PM by Fierbali111 »

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #4 on: Today at 07:21:31 PM »
Love the OT. Love the prequels. The Force Awakens is a decent flick. Last Jedi... I really wanted to like it. I thought I did after the first viewing. But the more I watched it, the angrier I got with it.

Online Tolvo

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #5 on: Today at 09:09:10 PM »
I found they were very rough. It's hard to relate to Rey as she's pretty unstoppable, feels no fear, and has no real attachments to anyone. She also outclasses her teachers( Han and Luke, who both then die soon after) within minutes, showing no need to improve on anything really, even all the jedi texts (which she never even glanced at) which were then blown up by yoda, maybe as a nod off in an attempt to destroy what the old movies and characters represented.

Finn i found was much more relatable, and it was unfortunate to see him reduced to even more of a gag in the second movie when he showed major character development from being a coward wanting to run from the first order, to then face off against kylo ren in a 1 on 1 lightsaber duel in order to save his new friend. With the actions he took, you could see the fear and hesitation in his eyes and the incredible will it took to push forward and overcome them, something greater than fancy force powers will ever be.

Rey fails plenty of times, and does not outclass Han or Luke. Han is still the better pilot and with a blaster and better talker, Luke is still a far more powerful Jedi, even Leia has shown to be more powerful than Rey though that scene was pretty jarring not gonna lie. Rey is still young and inexperienced similar to Luke during Empire and is not even as skilled yet as Anakin Skywalker and likely she won't reach that level. Keep in mind a problem also comes from level of technology, Luke during Return of the Jedi doesn't do all of the feats that Obi Wan can do in Phantom Menace when Obi was a mere padawan. But Obi Wan at that point wouldn't be able to beat Darth Vader, yet Luke could in Return. Because they escalate the powers and abilities based on available technology when the movies are made. If they remade A New Hope now Old Ben would be flipping off walls and Darth Vader would be crushing starships to throw at him(In the Disney Novels Darth Vader and Palpatine are Force Unleashed Level powerful as seen in Lords of the Sith where they destroy entire starships with ease and can defeat armies single handed, similar to the old EU). Again, comparing to other characters, in the first movie Luke blows up the Death Star and out-pilots tons of veterans. Rey out pilots a bunch of TIE Fighters mainly, she never even out pilots Ren who is shown as superior to her and more like Anakin(Who as a child out classed veterans). A lot of the flying scenes she's aided by Chewbacca in The Last Jedi who is often actually flying it. Poe is the far better pilot than Rey or Finn. Rey is not really the best at anything, she's just better at most things than Finn. Though he's a better shot and more skilled with military tactics and knowledge than she is. For combat it is basically an untested trained trooper(Finn) up against a force sensitive street fighter and survivalist with tons of experience(Rey). And Finn during his first real battle froze up and deserted. While Rey has had to kill before growing up for survival.



Also you may want to watch the movie again, Yoda doesn't destroy the Jedi texts. The movie contains a lot of subtle moments. Luke believes he did, as Yoda says the tree contained nothing she didn't already have.

“Wisdom they held, but that library contained nothing that the girl Rey does not already possess.” - Yoda

But Yoda is making a joke here. And it is shown later when people look through drawers on the Falcon, one drawer is full of all the Jedi Texts that Rey stole from the tree before Yoda hit it with lightning. Finn accidentally finds them when looking for a blanket and just thinks they're a bunch of random books but those are the sacred texts Luke showed Rey. It's a part of why I encourage repeat watches of The Last Jedi is a lot of things people miss because they aren't as attentive and such subtlety isn't common in a lot of Star Wars movies which are usually pretty blatant about things. Rey also showed great interest in the texts prior to this.

All of the main new characters have been shown to have flaws, to struggle to succeed, to have moments of fear and doubt. Rey really just beats up unnamed thugs easily(Makes sense she lived her whole life fighting against such people and is skilled with melee weapons). Rey for instance barely wins against Ren who was toying with her and was basically hit with a bazooka(Chewbacca's Bowcaster) the scene prior and was bleeding profusely and severely injured. Ren is also not even considered to be as skilled as basically any of the main Jedi or Sith we've seen, he has a power the others didn't show(Holding blaster bolts in the air) but Snoke and Luke are still the most powerful people around, or, who were around at the time. It is mentioned Ren isn't even fully trained and is still pretty novice and again that shows in his behavior. Darth Vader alone could probably take Rey and Ren at once while barely paying attention(Like he did to Luke in Empire). Poe not as much at first until The Last Jedi when he royally fucks up a ton. Honestly I can't think of a character who doesn't make serious mistakes in any of these films among the heroes or villains. Holdo was right about Poe but still miscalculated and her plan was foiled so she had to sacrifice herself to save the others. A lot of The Last Jedi is about learning from the past and trying to make a better future after all, with a focus on making a new better generation to take up the mantle after the old one has died out or been lost. Yoda is probably the only person in this movie who doesn't make mistakes, though it mentions he made many in the past such as during the Clone Wars.

Force Awakens is fun but pretty standard, The Last Jedi I think is contender for best Star Wars film in my opinion, I'd rank it in a similar place as Empire, A New Hope, and Rogue One. The Last Jedi I'd recommend repeat watches but Force Awakens you'll probably get all you need from one watch to be honest. And you can pick up on the things in The Last Jedi if close attention is paid throughout but people aren't really expected to do that for a Star Wars movie.

I still think Starkiller Base is really stupid, not just in the size and scale, but how it somehow fires that energy that then just goes into hyperspace itself or something? They treat it like it just itself fires like the Death Star but the Death Star needed to be at a planet to blow it up, and they don't fire it into like a focus that launches the energy through Hyperspace to a target. It just fires, goes into space, seems to trail off into the distance, cut to planets billions of lightyears away being blown up, unless Hosnian Prime blew up in like a billion years? It really makes no sense and it's a weird flaw that it seems like people during production didn't notice that is really beyond a lot of smaller science errors in Star Wars you can kind of ignore. The existence of Hyperspace jumps is designed to get around the distance and time problem via fast-than-light travel and they kind of just forgot or didn't notice this would require hyperspace.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #6 on: Today at 09:34:54 PM »
While I disagree with you about Rey (also known as Mary Sue, Star Wars edition), and without going into all the evidence of her acquiring force powers when the plot needs her to, acquiring skills when the plot needs her to (because even though she's only spent a few hours in the Falcon, of course she knows how to fix it better than that nobody Han Solo), since this was a flaw in both films.

While not going into all the plot holes, inconsistencies and plot twists used for the sole purpose of being expectation subversion that make the Last Jedi one of the worst films ever made, never mind the worst Star Wars movie of all time, I do have one question to ask: How is the Starkiller Base any more stupid than suddenly introducing the use of entering hyperspace as a weapon that can destroy fleets?

Online Tolvo

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #7 on: Today at 09:49:35 PM »
Hyperspace Rings are already shown in Attack of the Clones, Obi Wan's Jedi Starfighter uses them. Before Revenge of the Sith when they have built in hyperdrives. So already the Prequels establish those rings exist.

Rey doesn't gain new skills for the sake of plot she always had them, as mentioned she knows a lot about ships and has already been in the Falcon before as it was her boss's ship, she brings this up and how she thinks he made terrible modifications to it which Han agrees with. Han also is shown in the original trilogy to not be good at repairing ships, C3PO corrects him at times on how to repair the Falcon when Han couldn't and C3PO turns out to be right. And Han's ship is a modified common form of freighter, while it is modified it is still that common form of freighter which anyone can simply read about. And again, she mentions she's been in it before and worked on it in the film. And has flown before and spends almost all her free time in simulations. And still doesn't fly as well as Han does. The only one that was convenient is just that she can resist Kylo Ren's mind probe, which required just being powerful enough in the Force so Luke Skywalker and most main character Jedi can do that from the get go.

She's not as drastic as Luke Skywalker who goes from a farm boy who shoots rats in his training ship to blowing up the Death Star. Or Anakin Skywalker who goes from piloting a pod racer to blowing up Droid Flagships. Obi Wan was a padawan who defeated Darth Maul who defeated with ease a Jedi Master on the Jedi Council who was considered one of their greatest warriors(Though Darth Maul died mostly due to hubris). You can call Rey a Mary Sue but with that criteria most main characters in Star Wars are that then.

Or do you mean the Hyperspace ram? That's been done before in the EU. As well makes sense that it can work though often wouldn't. Enemies can scan your hyperdrive and your computers and just knowing it is charged up and where your ship is aimed would tell them when and where you're roughly going(Except distance which factors into travelling anything past a planet). So anyone wanting to hyperspace ram needs the enemy to not be paying attention, not expect it, or be so overconfident they don't realize it. Something the First Order hit the check marks for. And since it won't work from outside of a lightyear(Due to ships constantly moving and not actually staying still). Though it could be used on planets pretty easily since they follow trajectories and have orbits.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #8 on: Today at 10:43:38 PM »
Not sure what the hyperspace rings have to do with anything so... okay?

That said, there is no sign that Rey has ever piloted a ship before. No sign that she has ever operated so much as a blaster before, much less the turret guns on Falcon. She's a scrapper. At no point in the film is it ever displayed that she knows how to fix ships until she's on a ship fixing one. It's been a while since I've watched the Force Awakens, but from what I remember, the only thing that's set up of Rey's knowledge of the Falcon prior to her flying it better than skilled and trained imperial pilots fly their Tie Fighters is Finn pointing at the Falcon, and Rey says that it's garbage. And then proceeds to out-pilot Tie Fighter pilots with the same garbage. That's plot-acquired skills if I've ever seen them. As for fixing the Falcon, Han was always terrible at it, but as far as I know, that still trumps 'self-taught scrapper'.

So yes, far more drastic than Luke Skywalker, who was shown to have some skill in piloting charging into a battle and 'using the force' with the help of his dead mentor in a battle where some skill piloting a training ship and shooting at rats was enough since the rebellion was desperate for anyone at that moment. The rest can be amounted to what little that he learned about the force with Ben and then a bit of luck. It's a reasonable reach in logic, as opposed to Rey suddenly knowing how to out-pilot Tie fighter pilots with an old smuggling ship.

Similarly Anakin, having used the force without knowing it for years in building and piloting pod-racers (as the only human who can do it), and since most of the space battle is run on auto-pilot or R2 getting him out of trouble. Again, a reasonable leap.

And... well, I don't know if you remember the battle between Obi-Wan and Maul, but Obi-Wan was trained by one of the best of the best, and Maul still defeats him. The only reason why Kenobi walked away from that is because Maul decided to play with his kill instead of just killing him. Obi-Wan attacks, with his rage tapping into years and years of training and skill to stand up in a fight against a trained Sith Lord but still losing is not a leap in logic. Rey being able to not only stand up against but thoroughly trounce a trained Sith Lord (no matter how wounded, he still should have been able to crush her, or at least put up a fight) is a lot more of a leap. Her suddenly being able to perform a mind trick out of nowhere with no training is also a leap. Her being able to shoot not one, not two, but three fighters in her second firefight on the Falcon, and first time manning the turrets, is also a leap (though that was more of a rule of cool leap than anything). And don't get me started on the bullshit of the fight in the red room (conveniently disappearing knife by the red guardsman, anyone?)

Rey is a Mary Sue. That's not up for debate. She acquires skills and powers as the plot needs her to with no explanation, training or reasonable adaptation. She's completely lacking in flaws or weaknesses. She's a walking talking trope at this point.

As for the Hyperspace Ram, yes, that was the greatest plot point of them all. I'll admit that it looked cool, but if it is one of the greatest plot holes of all time. Not only because it's something that comes out of nowhere to change the direction of the plot (and therefore being inherently plot-centric), but because it gives rise to the question of why the hell is this the first time that it's being used? If it was used before (EU or no) why aren't there devices in place to protect against it? And don't give me that explanation that it's too expensive to be done with ships. It still would have been used at some point in the universe that would have merited some kind of mention, either in the clone wars, the Sith Wars... somewhere, sometime there would have been some mention of a desperate battlefield move that people have to prepare for now. It's creates a plot hole not only in the movie, but in the whole of the universe. There's no explanation for it, no prior mention of it, and if it were something new and bold, you'd think there would be some reaction other than sadness over Holdo's sacrifice. Not to be insensitive, but I'm thinking somewhere along the lines of the following.
Poe: "Holy shit, she took out a whole First Order fleet in one stroke. Why the hell didn't we pull this shit before?"
Leia: "Because it's too expensive, it's too dangerous, it has too many variables to account for, etc etc etc..."

Everything you said there regarding distance, size enemy distraction would all be okay, except that it's never addressed in the film or the canon. If a film is left open to questions to which the answers can only be found in vague, hard-to-find comics and books from the 70s sort of explain and which have already been invalidated and turned into 'Legends' it creates a problem usually referred to by writers as plot holes.

That added to the useless Finn and Rose romp to casino planet (that goes nowhere) the Poe vs. Holdo plot (That goes nowhere) the Finn sacrificing himself plot (which might have been a saving point for the film if Rose doesn't go in and almost kill him and herself to save him, so it goes nowhere), Rey's lack of training that doesn't do much more than provide exposition for Kylo's history, which also goes nowhere, since Kylo remains the same whiny, fit-prone emo that he was at the start of the film, the Last Jedi is full of a lot of padding and very little substance which is undermined by the plot holes and inconsistencies. That adds up to a bad film overall, in my book.

Edit: And let's not forget the useless opening bomber scene. That one actually annoyed me on my first viewing. Where the hell are you Y-Wing fighters that you see being used as bombers far more effectively in Rogue One.

Edit Edit: Oh, and the Leia floating through space scene too. That was just damn painful.
« Last Edit: Today at 10:53:41 PM by Deamonbane »