Trump

Started by Vekseid, February 01, 2017, 02:59:22 AM

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Iniquitous

Quote from: gaggedLouise on November 17, 2020, 05:38:35 PM
Okay, Trump's plan for a coup is supposed to be about making several Republican states refuse to appoint any electors because they're outraged over massive election fraud, thereby sending the selection of POTUS to the House of Representatives. Once there, the plan is to decide by means of a vote among the individual state caucuses, and so the Republicans would (supposedly) win by 26-24 because they have a majority in more individual state delegations (and it's one vote per delegation, not one per head).

Two questions on this far-fetched plan, for the Americans here (who know their history, I am sure):

1. How many states/electors need to be absent from the EC to make it capsize and declare itself unable to choose a president?  It has never happened. Each state has until December 8th (this year) to resolve any recounts or other issues. If states blow past that “safe harbor” date, then the newly elected Congress will decide in January. If a state tried to ignore the popular vote and choose its own slate of electors, it would be in violation of federal law and give Congress the option to override the state’s decision. According to the National Task Force on Election Crises, a group of experts on election law and voting rights, the Electoral Count Act of 1887 requires Congress to go along with a state’s electors if they were chosen based on laws established before the November election.

2. Has it ever happened in modern times that a state refused to send any electors because they deemed the election there too flawed to be useful? If it did, when was it?
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Missy

Quote from: Haibane on November 17, 2020, 09:06:39 AM
A technical point regarding the office of the President - can a convicted felon stand for office?

Well to be honest I'm not sure that's altogether a bad thing. It could go terribly wrong for sure, but then you have examples like Eugene Debs running his campaign for president from Prison in 1920; his crimes were Pacifism and Socialism primarily. Debs had a long history of speaking out against the established order's Capitalist exploitation of workers and managed to piss off the President multiple times by standing up for things which I think are morally sound. To be honest, I may ave voted for Debs myself.

Further I've not known many, but I'll tell you I knew a felon once, though it was the last thing I would have thought about him; his story was his wife had cheated on him with his best friends and he made a mistake, personally I never once felt threatened by him. He didn't deserve to be dismissed from his employment because of he got emotional once in his past, much less so about something that was intensely personal and really never involved anyone but at most three people.

I can get restricting some persons based on reasonable factors, I mean if you're in the mob you have no business being in government. Still politicians don't exactly have the best reputation themselves either and really if we were to implement some kind of restriction system then well, Trump may find himself a felon after all this, but he hadn't been caught before the electoral college handed it to him, even so tax fraud isn't the character defect which makes him so pathetically unfit for office anyway. Trump didn't slaughter nearly 300 000 Americans because of tax fraud, he did it through laziness, negligence and criminally imbecilic incompetence.

Mind you I'm not saying criminals should be politicians, but that that's a bit of a generalization. I mean there's a difference between social criminals and political criminals for example and well the majority of Trumps failings which made him such a pitiful excuse aren't criminal acts on their own anyway.

Oniya

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/trump-fires-head-u-s-election-cybersecurity-after-he-debunked-n1248063

The director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency had his agency create a blog, debunking all of the rumors about the election not being secure.

Trump fired him.
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Haibane

Pathetic. I've said this before on here Trump behaves like a spiteful child. As Joe Biden said, it's embarrassing. This is just... wrong. So completely how not to run a country.

Callie Del Noire

Quote from: Oniya on November 17, 2020, 08:59:25 PM
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/trump-fires-head-u-s-election-cybersecurity-after-he-debunked-n1248063

The director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency had his agency create a blog, debunking all of the rumors about the election not being secure.

Trump fired him.

I wish he could sue him for wrongful termination.  The guy did his job...the blog has lots of good explanations and sources

Missy

Quote from: Callie Del Noire on November 17, 2020, 09:56:50 PM
I wish he could sue him for wrongful termination.  The guy did his job...the blog has lots of good explanations and sources

That would be a strongly positive development

RedPhoenix

Quote from: Oniya on November 17, 2020, 08:59:25 PM
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/trump-fires-head-u-s-election-cybersecurity-after-he-debunked-n1248063

The director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency had his agency create a blog, debunking all of the rumors about the election not being secure.

Trump fired him.

This is the guy that was gonna drain the swamp lol.
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gaggedLouise

Quote from: Iniquitous on November 17, 2020, 07:06:45 PM

Quote from: gaggedLouiseTwo questions on this far-fetched plan, for the Americans here (who know their history, I am sure):

1. How many states/electors need to be absent from the EC to make it capsize and declare itself unable to choose a president?
It has never happened. Each state has until December 8th (this year) to resolve any recounts or other issues. If states blow past that “safe harbor” date, then the newly elected Congress will decide in January. If a state tried to ignore the popular vote and choose its own slate of electors, it would be in violation of federal law and give Congress the option to override the state’s decision. According to the National Task Force on Election Crises, a group of experts on election law and voting rights, the Electoral Count Act of 1887 requires Congress to go along with a state’s electors if they were chosen based on laws established before the November election.

Mmm, that's what I suspected: no single state has ever said "this general election was so flawed that we are not even going to bother to certify it, much less apppoint any electors for the EC". Yet that's what Trump and many of his fans, in America and here in Europe, are expecting a couple of state legislatures to do within the next three weeks, based on the allegations of the Giuliani legal team.  :P

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Haibane

Quote from: Callie Del Noire on November 17, 2020, 09:56:50 PM
I wish he could sue him for wrongful termination.  The guy did his job...the blog has lots of good explanations and sources

I agree with Missy, that would be an extremely good thing for all parties because Trump's team would be obliged to give their evidence for a corrupt election.

Haibane

I wouldn't normally link to the UK paper Daily Mail as its really not a "proper" newspaper, but this article covers well the backlash against Trump for his firing of Krebs. You just have to skip over some of the sensationalist editorial language and get to the quotes.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8960079/Donald-Trump-fires-DHS-official-Christopher-Krebs.html

Haibane

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-54994212

This is bizarre. Several lawsuits have recently been dropped in other states but the Trump election campaign machine has put up $3m to cover the costs of a recount in two Wisconsin counties, Milwaukee and Dane. Wisconsin Elections Commission said that a full state recount would cost $7.9m so maybe Trump's coffers are empty and he can't afford that?

But the two counties being recounted had Biden wins of 317,270 votes to 134,357 and 260,185 to 78,800 respectively. There is no way that any recount will swing either of those results to Trump wins so I'm wondering what on earth is the point?

What is he expecting to uncover?

The whole process just seems a very strange waste of money.

TheGlyphstone

Hes not paying for it anyways, its being leeched from his followers from donation solicitation emails. So its theater paid for by the viewers.

Haibane

Yes, aware of that, all the money he's spending now is happily handed over by the cultists. It simply seems a pointless choice of counties to recount.

Valerian

Those are by far the two most populous counties in Wisconsin, so as far as getting the raw numbers he'd need to flip the state they have to go there.  But you're entirely correct that it's pointless -- the last time we had a recount only 131 votes were affected. Even Scooter (Scott Walker, former Wisconsin governor and longtime Trump toady) has said it's a waste of money.
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MelisaArtemis

Well... at this point, his so called "allegation" is basically a one-man-stand since even his supporters had backed out of it. Considering his accusation was backed by zilch other than "I should have won"... it doesn't make the basest of sense. He's basically just like a 10 years old throwing tantrum for losing....

legomaster00156

Quote from: MelisaArtemis on November 18, 2020, 09:43:16 PM
Well... at this point, his so called "allegation" is basically a one-man-stand since even his supporters had backed out of it. Considering his accusation was backed by zilch other than "I should have won"... it doesn't make the basest of sense. He's basically just like a 10 years old throwing tantrum for losing....
Incorrect, unfortunately. He is backed up by the entire Trump cult, the "conservative" side of the media, and most of the Republican party - facts be damned.

TheVillain

Indeed. We are seeing some GOP regulars waiver, but the Cult is still going strong.

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Laughing Hyena

This seems less about flipping the votes and more about paying his campaign debts off and trying to flee the country before a full investigation comes down on him.

Haibane

Presumably when the Trump team bring lawsuits against states over allegations of voting fraud, the judiciary in those states ask them to present their evidence. What is happening in those circumstances? Surely it would be a very simple task to dismiss all these suits by just asking "where's your evidence?" I am detached from all the local details so not seeing these lower level responses and wondering if that is happening.

From the BBC:

QuoteOn 17 November, President Trump's legal team filed a lawsuit, asking that Trump be named the winner in Nevada or that the results be void with no winner certified.

The suit claims "fraud and abuse renders the purported results of the Nevada election illegitimate" - with Trump's legal team alleging 15,000 people who lived out of state illegally voted, without providing evidence.

This /\ . Its completely frivolous and really the sort of vexatious nonsense lawsuits people bring just to waste time, so perhaps that's his game. A judge merely has to say "well, you've no evidence to back this claim up so just go away".

Its basically just one man saying "the opposition cheated" and then his cronies and legal people writing that down on a legal document and presenting it, with zero back up evidence. Surely each and every one of these can be just dismissed when Trump's team is unable to produce any evidence?

Its only the recount issues where his team can press ahead and I'm getting the feeling they are running short of cash to pay for those.

It just seems to be Trump, a bunch of GOP members all banging a drum and their cultists shouting "that sounds good, bang it louder" and behind it all is a big fat empty nothing.

Certainly nearly everyone I connect with online or here at home face to face think its a complete farce and very damaging to America's political system, and it also sounds like most Eu leaders think the same. I wonder if Putin was wise enough to get the measure of Trump's character four years ago and predict this? Maybe that was one reason he got into bed with Trump, so he could enjoy watching the USA rip itself apart without him having to spend a single Rouble: I've no evidence for this, it just seems like the long term game Putin is good at playing.

CrownedSun

Quote from: Haibane on November 19, 2020, 05:36:54 AM
Presumably when the Trump team bring lawsuits against states over allegations of voting fraud, the judiciary in those states ask them to present their evidence. What is happening in those circumstances? Surely it would be a very simple task to dismiss all these suits by just asking "where's your evidence?" I am detached from all the local details so not seeing these lower level responses and wondering if that is happening.

This, overwhelmingly, IS what has been happening.

He calls lawsuits, has no evidence for said lawsuits and so the suits are shut down, and thus he files more lawsuits.

It's basically a farce.

The only people buying it are his cult members.

Callie Del Noire

Those 15,000 voters? They aren’t illegal, a goodly portion of them are military members or family members voting legally. I’ve been voting as a Florida resident since 2002, and for a good chunk of that I was doing it out of state or even out of country while in the Navy. 

I REALLY wish he could got to jail for fraud.. or at least his lawyers face charges for lying to a judge. This is ridiculous. 

CrownedSun

I wouldn't be surprised if what he's doing WAS, in point of fact, illegal, but remember, it's not allowable to indict a sitting president of anything.

Haibane

Quote from: CrownedSun on November 19, 2020, 06:58:24 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if what he's doing WAS, in point of fact, illegal, but remember, it's not allowable to indict a sitting president of anything.

That needs to change. This is just fucking idiotic.

Muddy Waters

Quote from: Laughing Hyena on November 18, 2020, 10:59:39 PM
This seems less about flipping the votes and more about paying his campaign debts off and trying to flee the country before a full investigation comes down on him.

I think this is the underlying truth here.  ^^^^^
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Haibane

I don't see him running away as likely. He's not a quitter. He's Donald Trump, the best at winning there ever was. He'll fight the liars and cheats and fraudsters that are ranged against him until he wins. He'll do it in the courts using his supporters money and he'll lie and cheat and be fraudulent because he can break any book of rules and rewrite them on the fly. Rules don't apply to him. He's the only one who is right and if he can't carry on in 2021 he'll be back in 2024, that's all his egotistical narcissistic mind can focus on.

I can see the FBI leading him out of the White House on 20th Jan in handcuffs at this rate.

For the ultimate power freak there is one other way to escape and beat everyone one last time as well...