Trump

[Sara Nilsson]

Adn Amararosa, wonderful person, such a talent.. what she said something bad about me? she is a cow, never liked her.

[gaggedLouise]

Or you know set the ReichstagCongress on fire, blaming the communists.

Which this time around would mean Hillary Clinton or some faction of the Democrat party.  :(

[Roleplay Frog]

Which this time around would mean Hillary Clinton or some faction of the Democrat party.  :(

Yeah I realized I should have done that too to complete the joke but you can't edit here.

[Oniya]

The New York Times has published an anonymous editorial (unusual in that alone) from someone supposedly in the Trump administration, talking about how they and others close to the President are basically trying to ensure that the infrastructure of democracy survives the 45th President's term.  This does correlate with claims that Bob Woodward's new book is making.

Trump is now scouring the White House to try to find out who it is.

[Sara Nilsson]

Turns out it was Pence all along. ^^

What is funny/sad.. my husbands family are all super republican (for.. god knows what reason) and they still go. at least it isn't Hillary imagine what a mess that would be.

[Ket]

Turns out it was Pence all along. ^^

What is funny/sad.. my husbands family are all super republican (for.. god knows what reason) and they still go. at least it isn't Hillary imagine what a mess that would be.

Yes, it would be utterly devastating. /sarcasm

Most of my family are Republicans as well, save an aunt and an uncle, but they are sort of Democrat-Republicans. Another aunt is a hardcore Trumpster, thinks he's the bees knees. Also has absolutely no idea how government works.

Politics and family conversations stay far apart these days.

[Oniya]

The problem with the Pence theory (although that 'lodestar' thing is very unusual) is that the NYT gave the author anonymity because their job would be in danger if their identity was revealed.  Donald Trump cannot fire Mike Pence.

[lustfulintentions]

The problem with the Pence theory (although that 'lodestar' thing is very unusual) is that the NYT gave the author anonymity because their job would be in danger if their identity was revealed.  Donald Trump cannot fire Mike Pence.

No, but if anyone has a ton to gain from Trump finally being removed from office, it's the guy who's second in line. He has more to lose if the Mueller investigation implicates him as also complicit/aware (remember, he was a Manafort hand-pick). So, this might just be Pence thinking he's bright (hint, he's not bright, just a cruel theocrat)

[Sara Nilsson]

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1037464177269514240?s=21

Seriously.. his twitter is going downhill.

"Treason?"

That is it.

[TheGlyphstone]

Turns out it was Pence all along. ^^

What is funny/sad.. my husbands family are all super republican (for.. god knows what reason) and they still go. at least it isn't Hillary imagine what a mess that would be.

At this point, for a lot of people 'Hillary' isn't a person, at least in the sense of '70-year old wife of Bill Clinton, former Secretary of State, etc. '. 'Hillary' is a constructed psychological boogeyman embodying all of their worst fears about a liberal-dominated government, conveniently rolled up into one imaginary package. Trump will always look better by comparison, because they're comparing him to something whose sole concrete defining trait is 'the worst'.

[Oniya]

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1037464177269514240?s=21

Seriously.. his twitter is going downhill.

"Treason?"

That is it.

Mark Hamill's response (currently pinned):

I'll take "Charges For Impeachment" for $500, Alex. #JudicialJeopardy

[TheGlyphstone]

I kinda want to see how Alex Jones and the other 'Deep State' conspiracists react to this. On one hand...it sorta proves them right. On the other hand, it's not some massive nation-spanning malevolent shadow organization, it's just like six people doing damage control inside the White House.

[Beorning]

Okay, here's what I'm wondering:

If what Woodward's book and and the NYT editorial say is true, then it's clear that the Trump administration is just not working at all. I mean, the President being so incompetent that his own co-workers need to sabotage him to protect the country's well-being..? This is pure madness... So, is there anything American politicians can do to stop this?

What are the requirements for impeachment? Also, impeachement aside, is there some way for the Congress to remove the whole presidential administration on basis of gross incompetence and to call for new presidential elections?

[Cassandra LeMay]

... On the other hand, it's not some massive nation-spanning malevolent shadow organization, it's just like six people doing damage control inside the White House.

Or you might say it is a handful of unelected people trying their best to have a massive influence over American politics and policies behind the back of the elected head of government. I am as left-wing as they come; I would like nothing better than see Trump leave the White House. But this is not the way. If members of cabinet think Trump is giving them illegal orders, if they think he is not capable of doing his job, they should either resign with a very public statement or work towards using the 25th Ammendment.

Unelected officials substituting their own judgement for that of the president is not the way to run a democracy.

What are the requirements for impeachment? Also, impeachement aside, is there some way for the Congress to remove the whole presidential administration on basis of gross incompetence and to call for new presidential elections?

Impeachement is a complicated - and mostly political - topic. We had a thread about it here a while ago, so maybe that might make a good starting point. And no, there is no way for Congress (that I know of) to have a "do over" and kick out the lot.

What Congress could do - if the Republicans holding the majority in both chambers had the guts for it - would be to run some serious investigations, subpoena witnesses and records, withhold funding from any one of Trump's pet projects, censure him, pass laws that take back some power that has been ceeded to the President over the years. Congress has a lot of power to reign in a president that don't go as far as impeachement - if only it has the will to do so.

[TheGlyphstone]

Or you might say it is a handful of unelected people trying their best to have a massive influence over American politics and policies behind the back of the elected head of government. I am as left-wing as they come; I would like nothing better than see Trump leave the White House. But this is not the way. If members of cabinet think Trump is giving them illegal orders, if they think he is not capable of doing his job, they should either resign with a very public statement or work towards using the 25th Ammendment.

I'm 100% with you on that. It was just a humorous poke at the nuts who imagine a vast shadow-state conspiracy - correct about the conspiracy, entirely wrong about the scale.

[Cassandra LeMay]

I'm 100% with you on that. It was just a humorous poke at the nuts who imagine a vast shadow-state conspiracy - correct about the conspiracy, entirely wrong about the scale.

Guess my irony/joking/sarcasm meter needs recalibrating. 

But it's also a kinda serious topic in my opinion, as "just doing damage control" is such an easy excuse for people who cling to their jobs without doing the right thing. At the end of the day these people still keep the President in power, even if they may diminish his power now and then. That's worth remembering.

[Oniya]

As it turns out, we've got 'yet another Nixon flashback' in the actions of White House staff.

While presidential historian Michael Beschloss is referencing the OpEd piece, the actions that he describes have also been cited in the excerpts I've seen of Woodward's book - which I trust quite a bit more.

[Oniya]

Double post, because it just came across my feed.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1037541538950209537

It says something that I'm having to double-check to make sure it isn't a parody account more and more often.

[Ket]

Why does he even have access to the internet?

[HannibalBarca]

Trump's tweet of "TREASON", once again, reveals his malignant narcissism... treason is against a nation, not an individual.  If someone is preventing information from getting to Trump, it may be against the law, but it no way is working for an enemy of the United States.  As far as I'm concerned, Trump himself is an enemy of the United States.  Once again, he's projecting.

[Orval Wintermute]

What are the requirements for impeachment? Also, impeachement aside, is there some way for the Congress to remove the whole presidential administration on basis of gross incompetence and to call for new presidential elections?

Congress can't remove the Executive and there is no way to call for early Presidential elections.
However, and I think this is what the anonymous op ed writer was referring to when they mentioned removing the President, under the 25th Amendment if half the cabinet including the VP think the President is unfit to carry out his duties they can remove the President from office. But it then goes to Congress to uphold the decision so it's a big political gamble if the VP & co are certain about what Congress would do.
It would also put the Dem's in a very awkward position, getting rid of Trump and replacing him with Pence who is a more competent politician isn't a great move. When it comes to elections you want your voters to turn out and their voters to stay at home, right now Trump is providing lots of reasons for Democrats, Independents & even moderate Republicans to turn up and vote for anybody but Trump, why would the Democrats want to remove an election asset like that?

[Ket]

Congress can't remove the Executive and there is no way to call for early Presidential elections.
However, and I think this is what the anonymous op ed writer was referring to when they mentioned removing the President, under the 25th Amendment if half the cabinet including the VP think the President is unfit to carry out his duties they can remove the President from office. But it then goes to Congress to uphold the decision

Congress can remove the president, that's what the whole checks and balances thing is about.

Impeachment is not removal from office, and that's what a lot of people think it is. Impeachment is only a legal statement of charges. Bill Clinton was impeached and never removed from office. Andrew Johnson was impeached and remained in office. Both men were acquited of charges during their trials.

Impeachment works as such: The House of Representatives passes articles of impeachment, basically levies charges against the president, vice president, or civil officers (which is a term that is defined in a number of ways). At this point the person has been impeached. Next the Senate tries the accused. If the accused is convicted, then they are removed from office. A two-thirds majority guilty vote is needed for conviction, which is ridiculously difficult to obtain.

The US Constitution is vague on what are impeachable offenses. Impeachable offenses are "treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors". But what exactly high crimes and misdemeanors consist of is left up to Congress' discretion. AS Gerald Ford said, "An impeachable offense is whatever a majority of the House of Representatives considers it to be at a given moment in history."

To put it simply, impeachment doesn't guarantee removal from office. In the three cases of impeachment in the US, two were acquitted and one resigned from office before he could be shown the door.

The 25th Amendment is difficult, because it states, "Section 4. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President. Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principle officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty–eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress within twenty–one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session within twenty–one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two–thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office." source

To put it simply, the VP and some other high governmental officials have to write to Congress and say "We think the president is bonkers." In which case the president can write back and say, "They're looney, I'm perfectly sane!" To which the VP and his crew have four days to write back and say, "No, don't listen to him, he's really nuts!" Then it's up to Congress to decide, by a two thirds majority vote in both houses, whether the president is truly incapable.

Not going to happen, even if the Dems had control of Congress. Because you're not going to get Pence or a majority of the cabinet or executive officers to say such a thing. Vice presidents aren't picked for their ability to become president. VPs are picked for their ability to be yes men and back up the policies the president wants to put forth. They are there as a just in case, but mostly to look pretty.

The only way to get Trump out of office is to vote him out in 2020. Or if he dies of a major coronary from Big Macs before then.

[gaggedLouise]

Trump's tweet of "TREASON", once again, reveals his malignant narcissism... treason is against a nation, not an individual.  If someone is preventing information from getting to Trump, it may be against the law, but it no way is working for an enemy of the United States.  As far as I'm concerned, Trump himself is an enemy of the United States.  Once again, he's projecting.

Well, he declared at a campaign rally the other day that if he's impeached sometime after the midterms, it would be the common voters' fault - his own voters' fault - because they didn't make sure that the Republicans kept their majority.  And of course, his own core voters and backers are all he really cares about - those and his own ego.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/09/06/politics/trump-impeach-your-fault/index.html

[Ket]

Well, he declared at a campaign rally the other day that if he's impeached sometime after the midterms, it would be the common voters' fault - his own voters' fault -

Typical narcissist behavior. Blame everything on someone else.

[Deamonbane]

Typical narcissist behavior. Blame everything on someone else.

That pretty much describes the current administration in a nutshell.