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Author Topic: Trump  (Read 112932 times)

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Offline DominantPoet

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2425 on: December 07, 2017, 01:41:59 AM »
Nixon tried that very defense, and see where it got him.  Of course, we may have evolved in this country as a political system since then, not just a cultural entity, so we will see.

True, but the problem is that, at least from my understanding, clearer/smarter/generally more decent heads typically ran things back then, in a manner of speaking. Or at the very least, it feels like the corrupt and the stupid weren't quite as numerous as they seem to be in this day and age.

Trump seems to have drawn the ire of a rather large chunk of the world for the Jerusalem thing though. I realize that's not going to go well for a whole slew of people in various areas, but it certainly showcases, at least in my eyes, precisely what kind of person Trump is, and it certainly seems to help paint that fact for a lot of others as well.

Offline Oniya

Re: Trump
« Reply #2426 on: December 07, 2017, 02:29:09 AM »
True, but the problem is that, at least from my understanding, clearer/smarter/generally more decent heads typically ran things back then, in a manner of speaking. Or at the very least, it feels like the corrupt and the stupid weren't quite as numerous as they seem to be in this day and age.

We did have Woodward and Bernstein.  And it looks like Bernstein is making the comparison as well.

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2427 on: December 07, 2017, 02:56:30 AM »
Forgive my ignorance, but I don't understand the whole "Israel" thing.

What's bad about it? (Legit asking; not trying to be sarcastic like "What are you guys making a big deal about?")

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2428 on: December 07, 2017, 03:23:55 AM »
Forgive my ignorance, but I don't understand the whole "Israel" thing.

What's bad about it? (Legit asking; not trying to be sarcastic like "What are you guys making a big deal about?")

Short version: Jerusalem has long been claimed as capital by the Palestinians as well, and the eastern half is still Israel-occupied territory - not a legally annexed part of Israeli terrirtory (this didn't change with the mid-90s Oslo accord, which Trump is implicitly invoking). You can't have a capital built on land that isn't fully a part of your own country. 

Also, its status as a most holy city to three religions makes it a bit tricky to handle (muslims believe that Muhammad was taken to the old Temple Mount by an angel, and from there taken on a brief journey to heaven; it has been revered in islam ever since the early days of that faith).

All of this makes Jerusalem a too hot button to touch in this way, and most governemnts consider that the status of the city needs to be part of a wider agreement between Israel and the Palestinians. No one has set up an embassy there since it would be a poke in the eye to many Arab countries and to the Palestinians. The Oslo accord has largely been politically dead since one of the men signing it, Yitshak Rabin, was assassinated in November 1995, so it can't be used as a finished blueprint for how to handle these issues.

Offline Cassandra LeMay

Re: Trump
« Reply #2429 on: December 07, 2017, 03:31:22 AM »
Forgive my ignorance, but I don't understand the whole "Israel" thing.

What's bad about it? (Legit asking; not trying to be sarcastic like "What are you guys making a big deal about?")
Short version: It's complicated.  ;)

Slightly longer version: Jerusalem is a holy site to both Christians and Muslims. You probably know some of the Christian side of things, I imagine. For Muslims it is a holy site because that's where they believe Muhammad ascended to heaven. The status of Jerusalem is very, very likely to be a major issue in any potential settlement between Israel, Palestine, and Israel's islamic neighbours. Acknowledging jerusalem as Israel's capital could be seen as a clear favoritism of the US towards Israel. How that will play into diplomacy in the middle east is anyone's guess, but it could be seen as establishing facts on the ground that make any future settlement much more difficult, or perhaps impossible.

Offline Various

Re: Trump
« Reply #2430 on: December 07, 2017, 03:33:51 AM »
True, but the problem is that, at least from my understanding, clearer/smarter/generally more decent heads typically ran things back then, in a manner of speaking. Or at the very least, it feels like the corrupt and the stupid weren't quite as numerous as they seem to be in this day and age.

The difference is that for Nixon, you had Republicans of conscious who put party after country (granted this was after Nixon slipped in the polls with his base). That also implied a base which could ALSO (and actually) put America Fist, which we don't have because of the Cult of Orange.

. . .

As for Israel, this is once again a situation where Trump's spoiled child "Obama did/liked it so it's bad!" tendencies are probably going to get us all killed.

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2431 on: December 07, 2017, 03:37:03 AM »
OK. I kinda get it now.

I'm still such a newbie when it comes to understanding politics and such. Which might not be a good thing, considering I'm going to college for a Criminal Justice degree. lol

Offline Cassandra LeMay

Re: Trump
« Reply #2432 on: December 07, 2017, 03:44:53 AM »
I'm still such a newbie when it comes to understanding politics and such. Which might not be a good thing, considering I'm going to college for a Criminal Justice degree. lol
All the better. Justice is supposed to be blind, after all.  ;)

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2433 on: December 07, 2017, 03:49:40 AM »
All the better. Justice is supposed to be blind, after all.  ;)

Haha! Fair point! ^^

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2434 on: December 07, 2017, 03:53:47 AM »
All the better. Justice is supposed to be blind, after all.  ;)

"You should be old enough to know you can't expect justice from the law!"

- attributed to an Aussie lawyer, speaking to the guy he lost a case for

Offline Trieste

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2435 on: December 07, 2017, 07:03:33 PM »
True, but the problem is that, at least from my understanding, clearer/smarter/generally more decent heads typically ran things back then, in a manner of speaking. Or at the very least, it feels like the corrupt and the stupid weren't quite as numerous as they seem to be in this day and age.

Only because what we learn in history class and what we write down tends to be a cleaned-up narrative of real life. It took three years for Nixon to resign from office - he would have been in there longer if they had tried to go through the whole process of impeachment and removal. It was just as messy back then - it's just that all the mess doesn't make it into the history books.

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2436 on: December 08, 2017, 11:41:43 PM »
Quote
The difference is that for Nixon, you had Republicans of conscious who put party after country (granted this was after Nixon slipped in the polls with his base). That also implied a base which could ALSO (and actually) put America Fist, which we don't have because of the Cult of Orange.

I recently read a report comparing Trump's core support base with Nixon's.  When Nixon resigned there were still around 27% of people who supported him.  Some polls have shown a hardcore 'always Trump' segment of around 27% as well.  It seems that's where we should draw the line for people who are beyond hope of redemption as far as sanity.

Quote
Only because what we learn in history class and what we write down tends to be a cleaned-up narrative of real life. It took three years for Nixon to resign from office - he would have been in there longer if they had tried to go through the whole process of impeachment and removal. It was just as messy back then - it's just that all the mess doesn't make it into the history books.

It depends on what history books you read.  Historians come in different flavors.  Some books are general history; others delve deeply into specific areas.  The problem is that few people other than historians and history lovers (like me) really read the in-depth history books, and thus miss the nuance and details to some of these historical events.  But they are out there, waiting to be read.

Offline Oniya

Re: Trump
« Reply #2437 on: December 09, 2017, 01:17:32 AM »
It depends on what history books you read.  Historians come in different flavors.  Some books are general history; others delve deeply into specific areas.  The problem is that few people other than historians and history lovers (like me) really read the in-depth history books, and thus miss the nuance and details to some of these historical events.  But they are out there, waiting to be read.

Also, what area you're from.  Down in DC/NoVA, things that happened in DC and its environs were covered with a fair amount of detail.  Mr. Oniya, who grew up in Boston, had more colonial/Revolutionary War history in his classes than I did.  Out in Ohio, Little Oni got more of the 'Great Lakes' history.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2438 on: December 09, 2017, 02:28:42 AM »
Sure, I think it's fair to say that in a lot of subject matter you can point to specialized materials and say "but this certainly goes into the nuances of ___!". I apologize for the imprecision in my statement.  ::)

The average history book largely gets the cleaned up version and what's taught in the average history class is unlikely to be the messy parts.

Also, what area you're from.  Down in DC/NoVA, things that happened in DC and its environs were covered with a fair amount of detail.  Mr. Oniya, who grew up in Boston, had more colonial/Revolutionary War history in his classes than I did.  Out in Ohio, Little Oni got more of the 'Great Lakes' history.

I have found this to be true as well. My friends out west learned more about the westward push for settlement, the gold rushes, manifest destiny. My education (also near Boston) was much more maritime in nature, very focused on the trade history around the Revolutionary War, the Underground Railroad, and the naval battles in the Civil War.

For the afore-mentioned history lovers, I recommend some podcasts: Sawbones (medical history), Stuff You Missed in History Class (general history), and Lore (history of stories). There's also Dan Carlin's Hardcore History if you're down for listening to 6-hour episodes (although they only come out about once every 4-6 weeks). I could go on but I'll stop there. I listen to podcasts while running (music got boring), and there are a fair number of history-lovers who appear to also like podcasting.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2439 on: December 09, 2017, 04:05:55 AM »
So we're technically lucky if Trump is impeached and removed sometime in 2019... *groans*

Offline Serephino

Re: Trump
« Reply #2440 on: December 09, 2017, 08:12:34 AM »
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-tells-alabama-future-country-depends-electing-roy-moore-032524597.html

Not the article I was looking for, but how fucking low can you get?  Of course, what can you expect out of that retard who bragged about being able to grope women because he's rich and powerful.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2441 on: December 09, 2017, 11:05:56 AM »
Great op-ed piece by Roger Cohen about Trump's war on truth, serious debate, honesty and transparency:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/12/05/opinion/trump-mueller-facts.html

Offline Blythe

Re: Trump
« Reply #2442 on: December 09, 2017, 12:51:15 PM »
retard

Could we not use 'retard' as a pejorative?

There's perfectly nice people out there with autism that don't have the moral bankruptcy of Roy Moore or Donald Trump.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2443 on: December 09, 2017, 06:46:03 PM »
Yeah, r-word no bueno. Might I suggest any of these instead? ;)

Great op-ed piece by Roger Cohen about Trump's war on truth, serious debate, honesty and transparency:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/12/05/opinion/trump-mueller-facts.html

I don't remember if I've linked it before or not, so I'll just add that I very much enjoyed this analysis of the roots of things like climate change denial, flat earthers, anti vaxxers, and other things as a cultural movement. Like, yeah, Andrew Wakefield published a study but there's a whole cultural reason behind it being accepted so widely.

http://religiondispatches.org/the-religious-origins-of-fake-news-and-alternative-facts/

Offline Oniya

Re: Trump
« Reply #2444 on: December 09, 2017, 06:53:19 PM »
Yeah, r-word no bueno. Might I suggest any of these instead? ;)

*dies laughing*  Perfect!

Offline Cassandra LeMay

Re: Trump
« Reply #2445 on: December 10, 2017, 02:30:41 AM »
The fight for control of the Consumer Finance Protection Bureau goes into the next round.

And while this may look like a topic mostly for law junkies like me, should Leandra English, the current Deputy Director of the CFPB, win this fight it might well mean that anything Mick Mulvaney does to the CFPB will not have the force of law. I strongly suspect the current administration wants to dismantle the CFPB and a win for Ms English would at least delay any such efforts.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2446 on: December 10, 2017, 03:37:07 AM »
I love how Dodd-Frank was likely passed as-written with a Democratic POTUS in mind and then when there’s a GOP POTUS they’re like “oh yeah, the law we passed was wrong”.

I definitely don’t think CFPB belongs anywhere near the WH, especially not under OMB. Ugh.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2447 on: December 10, 2017, 04:37:51 AM »
*dies laughing*  Perfect!

:D

Also, Trump's face looks like a rubber mask of himself in that picture. :) The expression is halfway to Alfred E Neuman. ;)

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2448 on: December 10, 2017, 05:23:22 PM »
The NY Times, in an interesting up-close look at the Trump White House and his unusual approach to the job, reveals that he'll often watch up to eight hours of tv per day, starting from the moment he wakes up. And the tv habit feeds into his very perception of his office. People close to him report that he told his team, for motivation, to think of each new day as an episode on a tv show, the concept of which is to work together to defeat one enemy a day.  ::)

Can't you hear him growling it out? "I'm TRUMPMAN, draining the Swamp! And his work starts right here. Working my way out of the Oval Office, stabbing one enemy at a time!"  :P

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/09/us/politics/donald-trump-president.html

Offline Cassandra LeMay

Re: Trump
« Reply #2449 on: December 11, 2017, 10:55:07 AM »
... Working my way out of the Oval Office, stabbing one enemy at a time!"  :P
Who needs to stab people when you can just shoot them in the middle of 5th avenue without losing voters?