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Author Topic: Trump  (Read 112392 times)

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Offline WindFish

Re: Trump
« Reply #2550 on: January 02, 2018, 06:38:35 PM »
Since everyone else had already covered your blatant lies in other posts, I also want to say that the world does have a stake in Trump. We're closer to nuclear war then we've ever been before. Nuclear war will impact more than just the USA and North Korea. It should absolutely frighten you that these two manbabies are one Twitter tantrum away from pressing the nuclear button and starting WWIII.

Also as a Canadian, Trump's desire to rip up NAFTA frightens me. That would be a big job killer up here, especially for the automotive sector, which is a big industry in my province. So yes, it's not just Americans he's fucking over with his bullying and his senseless policies. Stop pretending that the rest of the world doesn't matter. You do realize that Canada is America's biggest trading partner, right?

You don't care if he bullies others because he is not bullying you?  Umm...  I can't remember the exact details, but as the saying goes...  They came for these people, and I said nothing because I am not one of them.  Then they came for group #2.  I still said nothing, because I am not one of them.  So on and so forth.  Then they came for me, and there was no one left to help me. 

So, you see why it's bad to just sit back and let others be taken down?  You may be low on the list, but I'll bet you are on the list, and when the idiot gets to you you're screwed because there won't be anyone left except those that still remain silent because they still aren't you.  Like it or not we are one big global society.  We need to take care of one another.  I am not Hispanic, but when he says Mexicans are rapists and drug dealers I want to stare him straight in the eye and say, "Bitch, shut the fuck up, sit down, and suck on your sippy cup!  The grown ups are talking." 


I think this is the poem you're referring to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

Although it is eerie how relevant that poem is if you replace "Socialists", "Jews", "Trade Unionists", with "The Media", "Muslims", and "Mexicans" or any other group that Trump and his propagandists at Fox target on a daily basis.

Offline Serephino

Re: Trump
« Reply #2551 on: January 02, 2018, 06:51:11 PM »
I think this is the poem you're referring to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

Although it is eerie how relevant that poem is if you replace "Socialists", "Jews", "Trade Unionists", with "The Media", "Muslims", and "Mexicans" or any other group that Trump and his propagandists at Fox target on a daily basis.

Yes, that is the one I meant.  And yeah, it's fucking scary that this particular piece of history is repeating itself.  Trump gives Holocaust survivors panic attacks for a reason.

Offline Fury Aphrodisia

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2552 on: January 02, 2018, 07:37:45 PM »
Windfish and Seraphino are absolutely on the nose about all of this. For the most part, I'm just incredibly proud of Seraphino (despite never having had a hand in shaping what they've had to say). Where Windfish is concerned, NAFTA is a really good point.

Trump likes to talk about how terrible trade is with Canada. For whatever reason, he doesn't seem to care about the fact that all of our resources are sold to the US for a contractually-mandated fraction of the price they're sold to anywhere else (including internally). US gets the lion's share of our resources for only part of the price. Then it's refined and sold back to Canada for several times its initial sale price, because it's now refined. Then we are able to actually make something out of the parts at which point we can sell it to American companies that then turn around and sell it to Americans.

The end of it, through several trades, is that we end up paying three times as much for a single product that comes FROM US, before we are ALLOWED to use it for our own refineries and industry. Then, the American companies bring it up here with little to no tax on the import and sell it at American prices to Canadian consumers.

But somehow, buying surplus milk that's about to spoil is enough reason for Trump to call us out, talk about how NAFTA is garbage for the US and needs to be thrown out, and how Canadians are the dishonest ones in the whole transaction, despite literally handing the US our jobs.

Offline MiraMirror

Re: Trump
« Reply #2553 on: January 02, 2018, 07:46:22 PM »
Adding on to what everyone else has already said, I'd just like to add that anyone who responds to the threat of nuclear freaking war with this is not fit to be the president.  That's the kind of response I expect from a six-year old comparing toys, or a man-child comparing the size of his junk.

Text for those who don't want to click the link
North Korean Leader Kim Jong Un just stated that the “Nuclear Button is on his desk at all times.” Will someone from his depleted and food starved regime please inform him that I too have a Nuclear Button, but it is a much bigger & more powerful one than his, and my Button works!

Offline SithLordOfSnark

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2554 on: January 02, 2018, 08:14:54 PM »
There's also the fact that, the President of the US is "The Leader of the Free World."

Key word here is WORLD.

He's the most powerful man on the planet, so while his actions may not affect you directly, they WILL STILL AFFECT YOU.

Offline Oniya

Re: Trump
« Reply #2555 on: January 02, 2018, 09:06:51 PM »
He made promises to coal miners, which got him a lot of votes in my home state because our economy was built on coal.  However, as the article states, natural gas is still cheaper, and he's loosening pipeline restrictions.  That's not going to help the coal industry.  I can't find the article now, but I even saw one yesterday that said preventable deaths of coal miners have like doubled since Trump deregulated safety restrictions.  So not only were his promises empty, they voted him in, he doesn't need them anymore, so he doesn't give a shit if the job kills them.

This one ran today, so it's not the one that you saw, but yes - the deaths have doubled.  I'm going to add that I'm descended from coal miners, including one relative who survived the explosion that led to the creation of the U.S. Bureau of Mines - now subsumed into the NIOSH's Office of Mine Safety and Health Research.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-coal-mining-deaths-20180102-story.html

Offline DominantPoet

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2556 on: January 02, 2018, 09:53:13 PM »
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/948359545767841792

There's not enough desk, nor enough of my head, to pound one into the other in complete and utter disbelief.

Basically, Trump apparently has taken it upon himself to create his own form of the Razzie's for the Media, and he's going to announce the "winners" come Monday evening.

Offline Serephino

Re: Trump
« Reply #2557 on: January 02, 2018, 09:58:05 PM »
Shouldn't he be more focused on... I don't know... running the country?  Oh wait... he's too self absorbed... silly me!

Online Sara Nilsson

Re: Trump
« Reply #2558 on: January 02, 2018, 10:11:07 PM »
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/948359545767841792

There's not enough desk, nor enough of my head, to pound one into the other in complete and utter disbelief.

Basically, Trump apparently has taken it upon himself to create his own form of the Razzie's for the Media, and he's going to announce the "winners" come Monday evening.

I think I facepalmed so hard my hand is sticking out of the back of my head

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2559 on: January 03, 2018, 06:15:29 AM »
Adding on to what everyone else has already said, I'd just like to add that anyone who responds to the threat of nuclear freaking war with this is not fit to be the president.  That's the kind of response I expect from a six-year old comparing toys, or a man-child comparing the size of his junk.

Text for those who don't want to click the link
North Korean Leader Kim Jong Un just stated that the “Nuclear Button is on his desk at all times.” Will someone from his depleted and food starved regime please inform him that I too have a Nuclear Button, but it is a much bigger & more powerful one than his, and my Button works!

Yeah, I just heard about Trump's response on the news - he really is *sinking* to the occasion. This whole circus is feeling more and more like Dr. Strangelove.

"Gentlemen, you can't fight here! This is the War Room!"  :P

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2560 on: January 03, 2018, 06:19:55 AM »
Well, at least he didn't say "my button is bigger and redder than his!"  :P

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2561 on: January 03, 2018, 07:26:09 AM »
There's also the fact that, the President of the US is "The Leader of the Free World."

Key word here is WORLD.

He's the most powerful man on the planet, so while his actions may not affect you directly, they WILL STILL AFFECT YOU.

Sorry, the US president ceased being the Leader of the Free World years ago, around the time George W said things along the lines of "You're with us, or you're against us." Then followed it up with a whole lot of other shit that has made the world a lot less safe ever since. I will agree that he is close to the most powerful person in the world, but leader of any part of the world? Nope, not as far as I am concerned.

BTW, I'm Australian, born in the country, and lived here my entire life.

Offline TheHighwayHitman

Re: Trump
« Reply #2562 on: January 03, 2018, 07:50:09 AM »
Glyph had it right. Fury had it wrong...at least in approach. Here is how and why. Fury starts a large portion of her argument literally by lying about things I say, said, or did. She in turn uses that to make personal attacks, such as "thick" which she in turn uses to claim a non existent moral high ground so she can paint me whichever metaphoric colors she likes.

It seems at first and second glance like many responders are okay with that. Some are quite quick to second the notion I am a liar or a lesser person because I couldn't care less about political bullying as it has no impact on me one way or another. Some are quite quick to point out errors, perceived and legitimate, on my behalf, but not a one stepped up to do the same when it was someone on their side doing it. Intentionally doing it mind you. As was pointed out, the rant was painful. It wasn't painful because it was debunking me. It was painful because it was such a poor attempt and nobody called it out as such. I'm curious to know how many people have recently read over the logical fallacies page.

Just for starters there are what, 215 or so sovereign nations in the world. I mentioned America, Canada, Iran, North Korea, Sweden, Germany, Israel, Zimbabwe, Russia, and China. That is a fraction of that total, hardly all of them. I also put none of them down. I never once said or insinuated they were crappy countries or that they sucked, though there is a case to be made on behalf of Sweden (because I did say the rape capitol thing) and Zimbabwe. On the other hand, it is a weak case since less than flattering is not the same thing as a put down.

That is just an example, but her response is littered with many more instances of such things.

It is precisely that sort of behavior why someone like me, who is by default, a live and let live, leave me alone, you do you, I'll do me, the government should fear the people, is pushed to the right side of the isle. You're not a psychologist. You don't know me. You're not my parents, my wife, my children, or somebody who pays my bills. You don't know what I am thinking and have do not have the right or authority to put words into my mouth. Let alone lie about it and use it to make your case. If you can't win without being honest, you just don't win. To me, it's that simple.

That is enough of that from me though. I'd like to see a legitimate apology or at the very least some sort of acknowledgment of the attacks, but I'm not that invested to the point it will make or break me. I said my peace on it and it's easy enough for anyone who cares to verify that I am correct. Like Blythe, I agree that most of what is being said is no longer part of a healthy conversation, so I'd like to remove myself from most of it.

So I turn my attention elsewhere.

Does anybody actually believe that we are going to get into a nuclear war, or that North Korea is preferable? Why? Call me curious.

On space and exploration. I could be mistaken (I'm opening with this in case I am wrong) but SpaceX is privately funded. That would mean it has little to do with NASA, doesn't it? Also, hasn't every president in recent history cut funding to NASA? Including Bush and Obama? They got like 1% of the budget and can send satellites to Jupiter. I would like to know what they could do with 10% of the budget. That's just me.

NAFTA: I actually have mixed opinions on that. It is one of the things where I am inclined to see things from the Canadian perspective, believe it or not. On the other hand if you look at it from the relationship between America and Mexico, it appears to need some work.

There is other stuff that I stubbornly would like to comment on. Surely. Responding to the comments about how I feel about bullies, or some of the issues America faces. But I'm not, since I am trying to withdraw from the heated stuff as well as leave it on a more positive, see you in the middle type of thing.

Is that fair?

Offline RedEve

Re: Trump
« Reply #2563 on: January 03, 2018, 08:55:09 AM »
Not sure how asking you a question about why you don't care about bullying as long is it doesn't affect you constitutes lying, but whatever.

Online Regina Minx

Re: Trump
« Reply #2564 on: January 03, 2018, 08:58:23 AM »
It seems at first and second glance like many responders are okay with that. Some are quite quick to second the notion I am a liar or a lesser person...

I didn't think you were a liar. At first. I thought you were prone to hyperbolic over-exaggerations and making assertions without evidence, but those are lesser forms of dishonesty when you compare them to overt, outright deception. Then you said this:

Just for starters there are what, 215 or so sovereign nations in the world. I mentioned America, Canada, Iran, North Korea, Sweden, Germany, Israel, Zimbabwe, Russia, and China. That is a fraction of that total, hardly all of them. I also put none of them down.

[Emphasis by Regina Minx]

And now I do think you're a liar. Because the only way that statement, that you did not put down any of the countries you mentioned, relies on the fact that you didn't say this less than 24 hours earlier:

What I like about Trump, and what he does do correctly, is disregard the opinions of those who don't matter.  Zimbabwe? Sit down and shut up. We give you 125,000,000 a year in aid and it does nothing. Sweden? How is that socialist, feminist state working out for you now that you're the rape capital of the world? Germany, we're glad you feel sorry about WW2, but listen. You're not going to revert to socialism, you're going to keep doing things the way we want. After all, we are why you have a country that doesn't speak Russian. And to the E.U. No. They are our British. You're not going to rape their economy because Greece and Italy have no sense of themselves. Bla. Bla. Bla. Right?

...

Places like Canada being upset with America? Dude. Their leader was literally elected because of his hair. Who is really the bigger joke?

[Emphasis by Regina Minx]

Which you did. So you put down other countries, and then lied and said you didn't.

I was borderline about whether or not you were worthy of engaging, given your hyperbole and groundless assertions. Now I don't think you're even arguing in good faith since you're blatantly lying. Of course, the possibility exists that you don't think incorrectly stating that Sweden is the rape capital of the world, or that a country so superficial that they would elect a prime minister because he was well-coiffed isn't a put-down, but frankly at this point I don't think you have earned much of a benefit of a doubt. You could argue, of course, that opinions you're expressing are "Trumpian" opinions rather than your own, but since you say that you like and agree with the Trump position on Zimbabwe, German, Canada, et. al, this is a distinction without a difference, and also not supported by the way your post yesterday was laid out, with that little dig at Canada coming well after the paragraph where you summarized "Trumplian" opinions.

So yeah. I think you're lying and I don't really care to engage with you further.

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2565 on: January 03, 2018, 10:42:44 AM »
If you see a post here that you think breaks the rules, report it.  Squabbling in-thread over the issue also breaks the rules and will only create more problems.  Please be sure you are familiar with the overall site rules as well as the logical fallacies thread before debating in this area.  Thank you.

~ King Serperior, for Staff

Offline Serephino

Re: Trump
« Reply #2566 on: January 03, 2018, 11:12:53 AM »
https://www.yahoo.com/news/steve-bannon-calls-trump-tower-152200421.html

Is it just me, or does this feel more like a soap opera than the American government?

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2567 on: January 03, 2018, 11:31:36 AM »
https://www.yahoo.com/news/steve-bannon-calls-trump-tower-152200421.html

Is it just me, or does this feel more like a soap opera than the American government?

Bwahaha!! :D

Bannon:

Quote from: Huffington Post
The former White House strategist was quoted by Wolff as saying there was “zero” chance Trump Jr. didn’t walk the Russian meeting attendees “up to his father’s office on the 26th floor.”

Yeah, I agree, There is no chance of such a non-connection - and already last year, I felt there was absolutely no chance of Trump Jr not having told his father about the meeting he had been to, relating to dad's campaign and possible Russian assistance, at the very HQ building of the Trump empire.

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2568 on: January 03, 2018, 12:50:27 PM »
Trump's response on Twitter to Kim Jong Un:

Quote
North Korean Leader Kim Jong Un just stated that the “Nuclear Button is on his desk at all times.” Will someone from his depleted and food starved regime please inform him that I too have a Nuclear Button, but it is a much bigger & more powerful one than his, and my Button works!

Is he actually trying to start a nuclear war?! 

This man terrifies me. 

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2569 on: January 03, 2018, 01:03:05 PM »
Glyph had it right. Fury had it wrong...at least in approach. Here is how and why. Fury starts a large portion of her argument literally by lying about things I say, said, or did. She in turn uses that to make personal attacks, such as "thick" which she in turn uses to claim a non existent moral high ground so she can paint me whichever metaphoric colors she likes.

And what was it precisely that I lied about? How could I have done so? Is it the approach where I directly quoted the parts of your conversation I was directly addressing that you disagree with? I have been specifically careful about showing direct quotes so that everyone can easily see what I'm referring to. It would be easier if you could provide specific examples of your accusations. At least that way, it's fair, since it's not right now. What I see and hope I don't have to contend with going forward is a double standard again. You make unfounded, unsupported accusations without even a shred of proffered evidence and apparently expect validation. I stand by all that I've said because there's been nothing pointed out directly that I have evidence I should leave behind.

It seems at first and second glance like many responders are okay with that. Some are quite quick to second the notion I am a liar or a lesser person because I couldn't care less about political bullying as it has no impact on me one way or another. Some are quite quick to point out errors, perceived and legitimate, on my behalf, but not a one stepped up to do the same when it was someone on their side doing it. Intentionally doing it mind you. As was pointed out, the rant was painful. It wasn't painful because it was debunking me. It was painful because it was such a poor attempt and nobody called it out as such. I'm curious to know how many people have recently read over the logical fallacies page.

Many responders agree with what was said, or at least disagree with what you had initially said. Without any specific outline of what lies you claim I told, I don't see any reason why anyone would be remotely convinced to change those positions, either. It is important to note that no one said you were a lesser human being. We also did not state that we were better than other people in some fashion. In fact,t hat was what set me off to  begin with. Your comments about my country, the backhanded way you spoke of my marital status as though it were an important point in the discussion, all while refraining from actually addressing the points that you were met with are an inherent indicator that you did not mean those things in a beneficial light. Now, we do have a wide number of people claiming that that idea is heinous and deplorable (Sorry, but the phrase fits), which is not the same as thinking that a person is any such thing. If one cannot separate those, it is possible the Controversies board may not be a good fit for them.

I would love to hear what it is you believe I was intentionally doing? Intentionally responding, or intentionally saying I find your arguments to be flimsy, riddled with flaws and incredibly dishonest? I'm sorry, but there's only evidence in one direction or another, it is impossible to provide proof. As such, it is presented as opinion. It is a tack you have taken through this whole discussion from the moment I was the first to gently encourage you not to come across so needlessly hostile and you ignored that in order to persist. Unfortunately, there is a difference between what I did and what you did: I was able to acknowledge and take responsibility for the fact that this is my own opinion rather than trying to circumvent the issue and throwing fingers at others. I said it. It was me. I don't apologize for it.

The rant was pointed out as painful by someone who said, and I quote:
 
Ugh some of this this was as painful as learning Santa isn't real. >_< :(

But I love my Country. I have to accept when it is in the wrong and only by accepting that a problem exists, can we fix it. And only then when we fix its problems can we become the shining example we once were and always boast ourselves to be.

This shows that your claim that "It wasn't painful because it was debunking me. It was painful because it was such a poor attempt and nobody called it out as such." To be once again an inherently dishonest representation of another person's reaction.

As for recently reading over the logical fallacies page? Yesterday, as I was writing my post. I found that there were so MANY fallacies in your post that I just grabbed the four most frequent and decided to proceed with those. I work three jobs and have two children under the age of five, I don't have all the time in the world to teach another grown-up on top of all that.


Just for starters there are what, 215 or so sovereign nations in the world. I mentioned America, Canada, Iran, North Korea, Sweden, Germany, Israel, Zimbabwe, Russia, and China. That is a fraction of that total, hardly all of them. I also put none of them down. I never once said or insinuated they were crappy countries or that they sucked, though there is a case to be made on behalf of Sweden (because I did say the rape capitol thing) and Zimbabwe. On the other hand, it is a weak case since less than flattering is not the same thing as a put down.

That is just an example, but her response is littered with many more instances of such things.

I'm not sure what the number of countries has to do with anything, nor enumerating the ones you've already mentioned. But let's take a stroll down memory lane, shall we?


The reason the vast majority of the world has its freedoms at the end of the day, is due to the United States military.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Cite sources or it's just assertion. That's how statements like these work. You've decided that because of Americans generations ago, the vast majority of the world is free. You don't leave any wiggle room for the efforts of literally the rest of the world. It is historically debatable what sort of impact American interference has had around the world and I cannot, offhand, think of a single conflict America was involved in that didn't have a direct effect on what they could gain or at least not lose because of the conflict. In one felled swoop, you indicate that the efforts of every other force in the world were nothing compared to the American Military Complex.

Now, I'm not going to sit here and list the strengths and weaknesses of every military on the planet, but I'm pretty sure that India's independence, for example, is a product of British and Indian intervention and has nothing to do with the US. Same with Canada. Same with Greece, Korea (Let's face it, America didn't do so hot there), Sweden.... I guess you could make an argument about Germany, but as I said, historically debatable. I'm hoping this is understood, but I'll gladly elaborate if it is necessary.


The reason Sweden doesn't is because America footed the bill already.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
This has already been disproven, but we're all also aware that the assertions made were an example meant to illustrate a larger point. I am not aware of any contributions from the US to, for instance, Canadian military. Or British. Or any other country that they have donated hardware to that hasn't then turned around and taken aim at the US because they tend to leave the job half-done and refuse to stabilize a region once they've caused their chaos. In fact, I'm not aware of America ever actually picking up the cheque on anything that has resembled military maneuvers, often receiving support from other countries that goes entirely unnoted. It's ungrateful, frankly, and more than a little insulting in and of itself.



The United States is the prom queen on a global scale. Everyone wants to dance with her, some want to do more than that. But very few get the chance, and the way I see it is this. What does the rest of the world do for America to deserve that chance?

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
This is assertion on a ridiculous level. The assertion is that everyone wants to be attached to the US in some fashion, which is simply not true, particularly in the context of what is happening now, with Trump (Since that's the subject matter in play here). The US has withdrawn from, been disinvited from, even full-on left out of events they would normally have been included in (Trips to Britain, for instance, the Paris Accord, the Montreal Protocol, etc.).

I'm not sure how much traveling any have done outside of their home country, but I do know that there are places in the world (developed, free world, not talking about Iran or something) where it is safer to pass oneself off as something other than American, usually Canadian because of how similarly our demographics and accents present. The reason for this is because of the fact that the American reputation started to wane ever since the line "I'm the reason you're not speaking German" came into common parlance. For whatever reason, Americans who were never involved in the World Wars seem to be okay treating those who were like the refugees they don't want so they can usurp their pride at a job otherwise well done. It's crass and objectionable and the rest of the world is getting tired of it.

To then turn around and blindly claim that everyone wants a piece of dat ass? It's ridiculous. Perhaps corporations, since in the west they are the largest, on average. But there is much else that defines America that people simply don't want to be involved with. I'll deal with specifically Canada/US later, because I see fun coming up.

But what do we do for America? Aside from the fallacy of filling in empty space by saying "we refrain from...", there's the fact that in Canada, most of the raw materials you have for your corporations to do anything worth selling come from us. We have supported every military involvement that the US has ever been in, though in fairness some of that was from a point before the US was involved (WWII for example). We have permitted open trade and open travel of citizens, provided asylum for citizens, publicly and privately supported, carried through and given credit to Americans where all are involved. The indication in those words is that there is nothing of worth to anything other than the US. It puts peoples' backs up.

What I like about Trump, and what he does do correctly, is disregard the opinions of those who don't matter.  Zimbabwe? Sit down and shut up. We give you 125,000,000 a year in aid and it does nothing. Sweden? How is that socialist, feminist state working out for you now that you're the rape capital of the world? Germany, we're glad you feel sorry about WW2, but listen. You're not going to revert to socialism, you're going to keep doing things the way we want. After all, we are why you have a country that doesn't speak Russian. And to the E.U. No. They are our British. You're not going to rape their economy because Greece and Italy have no sense of themselves. Bla. Bla. Bla. Right?

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Here, you directly say that Zimbabwe, Sweden, Germany, Britain, Greece and Italy don't matter. You also have stated here that what the US wants is what needs to happen, that what the US wants is what must be law. You don't even provide for the margin of error that might say that the US are not, in fact, supreme. This is just plain bullying. This is telling the vast majority of the world that one small little country on the far west of the world is more important than literally everything else. You do not rule us, even those of us who are just north of you. You do not rule us, and that's a damned blessing in my eyes, because what I can imagine the world would look like if America did is a horrifying thought.

Places like Canada being upset with America? Dude. Their leader was literally elected because of his hair. Who is really the bigger joke?

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You call Canada a joke here. There's no getting around that.


I just understand that nobody takes Canada or her politics seriously on a global scale. Canda doesn't have the influence, wealth, industry, or culture that the United States does. People from all over the world don't talk about going to Canada. They don't request billions in aid every year, and they don't ask for military support - not to the degree America does. The US does more in foreign aid than how many othet countries combined?

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The only people who habitually fail to take Canada seriously are American Republican leaders. In fact, of the last ten presidents, the only ones who have thanked Canada for their contributions (such as 9/11, Gulf War I, disaster relief for Katrina and the California wildfires, etc) have been Democratic leaders. In most cases, American leaders underrepresent, underthank, undermention and underconsider Canada on all levels. For whatever reason, they fail to notice that we have given THEM support on all levels as long as they've been a country, aside from that one time they tried to start shit and we had to put a stop to that nonsense. For the last two hundred years, things have been pretty chill and simple. Except the fact that because America doesn't take us seriously (When they really should), they assume it's okay to insult us because they assume no one else takes us seriously either.

If you're convinced this is a fact and not an insult, you are welcome to provide cited sources for your assertions. Unless it is a fact (which must be backed up by evidence), it is an insult.

To be truly honest, it boggles my mind how someone without a horse in the race (Canadians, Swedes, Brits, etc) can have such vitriol for a world leader of a country that has a track record of doing what is best for everyone, including coming to their aid, (financially, with the military, or with other things like food and medicine) because he's a knucklehead (or isn't a liberal knucklehead).

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Aside from the condesension that comes with deciding that your country trying to take over every other territory on the globe and insisting it's for everyone else's own good (Which sounds distinctly British, now that I think of it), there's also the fact that you talk about coming to our aid. When we suffered losses in Afghanistan, when our capitol was under attack, when our mosque was bombed, they were used as talking points to the US. It was used to wage a war of hate. It was politicized instead of offering aid. They were used to belittle our government, our system, our way of life instead of just shutting the hell up and helping to come to a solution. When Britain was under attack, that president you tout sent TWEETS (because he couldn't be bothered to insult them directly) in talking about how the muslims were bad and Britain was ... Hang on, can't remember the verbage. Ah, that Scotland Yard had their sights set on these terrible people and then used it to politicize for his own Muslim Ban. That, of course, set off a series of ever-escalating comments from either side which, as far as I know, is still ongoing.


As we can see from all of this, you do in fact have a history of insulting other countries, sometimes the entire world in one felled swoop, strictly on the basis that they aren't American. You claim that America knows what is best for the entire population of the world and insinuate that it is somehow American responsibility to make sure everyone does as they are supposed to do. Those arguments are arrogant and ignorant and they are insulting for the rest of the world, whether you mean them to be or not.

It is precisely that sort of behavior why someone like me, who is by default, a live and let live, leave me alone, you do you, I'll do me, the government should fear the people, is pushed to the right side of the isle. You're not a psychologist. You don't know me. You're not my parents, my wife, my children, or somebody who pays my bills. You don't know what I am thinking and have do not have the right or authority to put words into my mouth. Let alone lie about it and use it to make your case. If you can't win without being honest, you just don't win. To me, it's that simple.

If this is your default nature, you have robbed us of the experience of learning of this firsthand, because nothing you have said has come across as passive or permissive in any manner. In fact, you have quite literally on several occasions voiced your approval of harsh, threatening and oppressive actions and comments. This is not a "live and let live" attitude and in fact, speaks directly of a "Do as I say or suffer" attitude, which is directly at odds with your claim.

My father had a saying - and I'm sure it's elsewhere on the site as well - that if you walk into a room of forty people and three don't like you, that's their problem. A perception problem. If you walk into that room and thirty seven don't like you, that's suddenly and quite severely your problem. It's on you to be heard properly. You've walked into this room and while three or so might be willing to let you go at the face value of your claims, the rest of us are going to hold you accountable for the rest of your words. You have presented yourself as a hostile, defensive person with arrogant, hateful, thoughtless and condescending outlooks on quite literally the rest of the world.

I can only react to the things you say, because I don't know what you're thinking. It's your responsibility to say what you're thinking in a proper way so that it's not misconstrued. To that end, if you claim that "live and let live" is your default, then your choice of words has horrendously betrayed you. Thankfully, I don't have to put words into your mouth. You yourself have said them and therefore you yourself can be held accountable for them. All I have needed to do was to demonstrate this with direct quotes from your own post. I have lied about nothing, and this is the part where I again iterate that I refuse to offer an apology unless and until you can provide some sort of evidence that something I have said is untrue, far less that I intentionally lied. I have been honest. Now it's time for you to do the same.

That is enough of that from me though. I'd like to see a legitimate apology or at the very least some sort of acknowledgment of the attacks, but I'm not that invested to the point it will make or break me. I said my peace on it and it's easy enough for anyone who cares to verify that I am correct. Like Blythe, I agree that most of what is being said is no longer part of a healthy conversation, so I'd like to remove myself from most of it.

You will receive absolutely no apology, no contrition nor retraction - legitimate or otherwise - unless and until you can supply any evidence whatsoever for literally anything you have said in your claims about me (since I have done so at length and you have failed to do so at all on any topic since you came in). Largely because none is deserved. If you truly feel you are correct, then I feel as though conversing with you must by default come to nothing, since you seem to be incapable of accepting any responsibility for the things it is verifiable you have said and seem to have deluded yourself to a point of complete insanity. You are, quite simply, not correct.

And none of what is listed above even deviates into the other heinous "opinions", supporting "evidence" or the "facts" that you presented, nor is it in any way touching the other horrible things you've said, the things that are quantifiably incorrect or simply downright disgusting. It was strictly in relation to your voiced insults about the rest of the world. I could tackle each of your points again, but it would be an exceptionally long message and no one really wants to read all of that, I'm under no illusions.

However, if you want to look for insults, I would suggest going back over what you've said and reevaluating precisely what you think of as insulting. I will defend myself in equal measure to whatever is offered up. I'm not sure what you expected to find here (honestly expected), but I'm what you've stirred up. I am not a live-and-let-live individual. I am not a person who inexorably reaches for peace. I do not think it is a truly realistic way to live. As such, I am not above burying those who push me too far.




As for North Korea, I don't think anyone finds North Korea preferable. I do believe that if both tantrum-filled manbabies keep going the way they are, yes, nuclear war is a very real option. Trump is already so out of control that no one has any influence over his behaviour. They can't keep him from tweeting, they can't keep him from saying the most inane things in speeches, at his ego rallies, or in interviews. If they can't keep him off social media, how are they going to keep him from finding a way to force the bombing of NK? To put it in perspective, I work with dogs. If a soldier cannot get their dog to go through basic commands (sit, heel, stay, lie down, etc. Obedience commands), how are they going to get them to flawlessly and reliably conduct maneuvers with their units? If you can't teach an ape to sign, he cannot ask for toilet paper. No matter which way you go, the basics have to be under control first before you can trust enough to allow control of greater things.

SpaceX is privately funded, but they have not developed any technology that is not already existent. In fact, Musk has had to apply for several permissions in order to use things that were still under patent. It has little to do with NASA and everything to do with the fact that those advancements did not come from the privately funded, they came from NASA advancements and are simply being used in a different manner now.

NASA has undergone budget cuts for as long as there has been no Cold War. Now they operate off of one tenth of one percent of the budget, according to Neil DeGrasse-Tyson in 2016. I too think that with a greater portion of the budget, our lives would take incredible leaps forward. Unfortunately, Trump and those like him are waging a campaign against scientific advancement by cutting education, NASA's funding, issuing gag orders to keep the scientific community from speaking to the public, encouraging this nonsense about "alternative facts" (a distinctly anti-science outlook) and generally exploiting this anti-intellectualism that America has been steeped in since the complacency of post-cold war America set in. Since then, America has been far more focused on perpetuating the war machine than it has been on figuring out the world around them, which I suspect has led to this terrible idea that America still leads the world.

NAFTA: Well, at least we agree on something, and it's good to know where that common ground is. I won't pretend to know anything about the relations between Mexico and America, but I think it's a shame America seems to want to put down all the people who seem to want to support it. I can't recall when - aside from the battle of the presidents - I've heard a Mexican ever say a sour thing about the US, but for whatever reason the US seems to like to pick on them a lot. Possibly another reason I detest American culture as a whole.

It is fair if you do truly want to find common ground in good faith. However, you have not been presenting yourself in good faith on a lot of issues and I am not one to let people get away with that sort of thing, so take that as you wish. If you truly want to find a middle ground, I'll find it with you. But turn insulting, superior or hostile and I will descend on you with the fury of a thousand Canadian geese.

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Offline Avis habilis

Re: Trump
« Reply #2570 on: January 03, 2018, 01:10:38 PM »
If you see a post here that you think breaks the rules, report it.  Squabbling in-thread over the issue also breaks the rules and will only create more problems.  Please be sure you are familiar with the overall site rules as well as the logical fallacies thread before debating in this area.  Thank you.

~ King Serperior, for Staff

Offline Arianna

Re: Trump
« Reply #2571 on: January 03, 2018, 03:41:00 PM »
This may not mean anything to anyone, but I have to point out that reading through all the replies here, I am honored to get the chance to be part of a community with people that are this reasonable, in these insane times we live in.
Just that. Thank you.

Offline Laughing Hyena

Re: Trump
« Reply #2572 on: January 03, 2018, 04:38:40 PM »
On that note, just to ease the obvious tension in the room - We now can say with confidence that a President of the United States has participated in the Squared Circle, upon the grandest stage of them all and has given a shave and a haircut to the Chairman of the Board of said company.

To those who doubt or call my bluff, I have proof of such wacky shenanigans. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Wrestlemania 23!


Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2573 on: January 03, 2018, 06:32:04 PM »

Offline Fury Aphrodisia

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2574 on: January 03, 2018, 06:58:49 PM »
I just love that comic and the ones around it. Thanks, Hairy!