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Author Topic: Trump  (Read 124082 times)

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Online Regina Minx

Re: Trump
« Reply #2500 on: December 30, 2017, 10:04:21 PM »
As I said on my introduction, I am completely okay getting mean and nasty right back with people who want to go there.

I would suggest you not. The first rule of this site is to be civil, and we don't operate under the rule that two wrongs make a right.

Offline Blythe

Re: Trump
« Reply #2501 on: December 30, 2017, 10:23:22 PM »
I detest mental illnesses and this strange phenomenon going on where everybody under the sun has one and it's okay.

Could you elaborate? Not quite sure what you're trying to get at here. There's about three or four ways to interpret this that I could think of, and I don't want to put words in your mouth by making assumptions, y'know?

Offline TheHighwayHitman

Re: Trump
« Reply #2502 on: December 30, 2017, 10:47:43 PM »
Noted.

Though I didn't really see myself as any more or less hostile than anyone else. I just sort of figured it would be best to be straightforward and throw up the neutral, if defensive position just in case...

Mental Illness Quote Answer: Everyone and their sister is suffering from something these days! Our media from video games to movies is fuelled by the cray-cray. Commander Shepard has to have "visions." More people care about the Joker and an actor who did too many drugs than Batman. Every crime thriller has a psycho off their meds we're supposed to empathize with. There are even comments up above about hoping Trump goes senile.

Its my belief that mental health is a big issue in America, and it should be taken seriously, not used as a crutch or a joke.


On Civility: I prefer to stay civil.

Offline Fury Aphrodisia

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2503 on: December 30, 2017, 10:55:21 PM »
Well, I would hope that here at Elliquiy, you wouldn't feel the need to be defensive, but especially when speaking politics, it can become an ingrained response.

In regards to your previous comments about sledgehammers, though... How many puppies have to be crushed to death before we find a different way to break stones?

Offline Blythe

Re: Trump
« Reply #2504 on: December 30, 2017, 10:56:08 PM »
Mental Illness Quote Answer: Everyone and their sister is suffering from something these days! Our media from video games to movies is fuelled by the cray-cray. Commander Shepard has to have "visions." More people care about the Joker and an actor who did too many drugs than Batman. Every crime thriller has a psycho off their meds we're supposed to empathize with. There are even comments up above about hoping Trump goes senile.

Its my belief that mental health is a big issue in America, and it should be taken seriously, not used as a crutch or a joke.

Ah, so your comment  regarding mental illness was more about how it's portrayed in various media, such as TV, videogames, and movies--not referring to just people in general?

So what I gather with that is that you do acknowledge mental illness as a very real and serious problem, but you just really do not wish to see it trivialized. Because I can completely understand that view. I can see why, if that is your belief, why you don't want to see people hoping Trump goes senile.

I had just wanted to be sure that this was what you meant, because there was a couple of really unpleasant ways it read before I asked for the clarification. I appreciate you taking the time to explain that particular line from you post. :)

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Trump
« Reply #2505 on: December 30, 2017, 10:59:59 PM »
That does sound like a topic worth debating/discussing, but you'd want to open a thread of its own so it gets proper attention instead of being buried amidst other topics.

As far as your political leanings, you've probably got more sympathy than you expect on some things. It sounds like you'd identify as Libertarian more than anything else, who have traditionally been forced into a devil's alliance with the right since our political system is designed to drown anyone who doesn't sign on to one of the Big Two.

But you say you like Trump. Why? What has he done - policies he's implemented, executive orders or laws he has signed, that you approve of? What has he said, specifically, that you hear and think 'F*** yeah, I agree with that!" No one here will condemn you for disagreeing, as long as definitive statements can be backed by factual evidence.

Offline TheHighwayHitman

Re: Trump
« Reply #2506 on: December 30, 2017, 11:19:01 PM »
I have to sleep soon. I apologize if I start to become incoherent.

On sledgehammers: I don't think the question is how many puppies need to be squashed before we find a better way. Continuing the metaphor, I want to stop the puppy from getting squashed by teaching it not to be around a sledgehammer in the first place. Let the hammer break the rocks. Its just fine at that. Keep the dog away from it. If a puppy goes squish? Oh well. Does it matter if your puppy got hit? Maybe to you, sure. You shouldn't have let your dog get walloped by a swinging hammer. That's how I see that. Maybe it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

On why I like Trump: Meet me in the middle. I said I liked him better than Obama, Clinton, and Bernie. I didn't say I liked him.

I can comment more, but it will be crude and poorly received I think. So I will instead say that I find the lack of tact refreshing. I'm sick of the politically correct bubble.

Offline Blythe

Re: Trump
« Reply #2507 on: December 30, 2017, 11:48:31 PM »
On sledgehammers: I don't think the question is how many puppies need to be squashed before we find a better way. Continuing the metaphor, I want to stop the puppy from getting squashed by teaching it not to be around a sledgehammer in the first place. Let the hammer break the rocks. Its just fine at that. Keep the dog away from it. If a puppy goes squish? Oh well. Does it matter if your puppy got hit? Maybe to you, sure. You shouldn't have let your dog get walloped by a swinging hammer. That's how I see that. Maybe it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

This is....a very weird analogy.

I can comment more, but it will be crude and poorly received I think. So I will instead say that I find the lack of tact refreshing. I'm sick of the politically correct bubble.

I do think that more direct speaking would be beneficial in politics in general. I don't mean people going out of their way to offend, but politicians not relying on a ton of elaborateness and perhaps people acknowledging that not everyone will always be able to convey their meaning perfectly the first time. I've felt that there's been a gap between a lot of current politicians and their constituents because they...just don't talk like their constituents. I think that is why Trump was appealing to some people--even people that normally wouldn't have voted for him.

Though with Trump...he's certainly blunt-speaking, but to use your, uh, puppy-sledgehammer analogy here...one of the reasons I don't like him is that I want someone who knows how to actually use a sledgehammer and knows what a rock is. I want someone who is not content with smashing puppies, man. If I can't trust someone not to smash puppies with a sledgehammer, I don't want 'em to have a sledgehammer.

Offline Fury Aphrodisia

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2508 on: December 30, 2017, 11:59:38 PM »
My only problem with the metaphor as you present it is that as often, the puppy is the ecosystems tainted by noxious gasses and by-products that would have been properly disposed of, but now aren't. The hollowed-out parks and wildlife protection. The disintegrated health care structure. The suffering infrastructure. As the single mother of a four-year-old who spent his whole first year in and out of hospitals, there's no way I would have been able to survive had it not been for my country's single-payer healthcare system. Either my son would have died, or else we would have been in debt literal millions of dollars, five years on. Now, this is a personal tale, granted, but it's not unusual. There are families who often have to choose between the life of a family member and a slow, crippling debt for decades for the whole family. Yes, I would be devastated if I lost that particular puppy. In fact, losing so many members of society would cause a pretty horrible economic backlash, as well. And doctors deserve to be paid. So what good does it do to let a drunken, three-legged bull stumble around in that particular china shop?

In my estimate, there are ways to make even a novice with a sledgehammer more efficient. Namely, keep them away from puppies, to further extend the metaphor.

While I understand the preference for one's own party candidate as opposed to one on the opposite side of the strange, American two-party system, I have to admit it continues to be vexing that there are a large number of people that go on about Obama, Hillary and Bernie. They are no longer part of the political landscape in comparison to Trump. That part is over now. It is time to weigh Trump against not another person, but his own track record. It is in this sense that I feel he falls short, at the moment. His position doesn't inspire much respect for the U.S. in terms of the rest of the world, and it is unlikely to get better while he remains in office.




If I can't trust someone not to smash puppies with a sledgehammer, I don't want 'em to have a sledgehammer.

Also, all of this. ^

Offline VekseidTopic starter

Re: Trump
« Reply #2509 on: December 31, 2017, 02:08:28 AM »
It's rather sad to listen to Hillary Rodham's old speeches, and then listen to her after she got browbeaten into changing her name to enable her husband's career. She could never seem genuine after that, no matter how much she did show she cared for people through her actions. The leaked e-mail where she tried to make sure a random girl got the help she needed didn't exactly feature in the media.

Meanwhile:


Offline RedEve

Re: Trump
« Reply #2510 on: December 31, 2017, 03:02:44 AM »
Donald J. Trump has trashed diplomatic bonds with countries that were carefully maintained by American presidents since the start of the Cold War.
That includes both Democrats and Republicans. e.g. the relations with Germany are at their worst point since the end of WWII.
How any Trump fan could possibly spin that into a positive is something I don't quite understand.
This is not North-Korea or China were talking about, but Germany, which should be one of the most idiot-proof relationships an American president has to administer.

Offline Blythe

Re: Trump
« Reply #2511 on: December 31, 2017, 03:08:23 AM »
Man, Grover Norquist is terrifying to listen to in that 2012 clip. Even more terrifying is he got applause. :/

Offline Fury Aphrodisia

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2512 on: December 31, 2017, 03:29:23 AM »
Donald J. Trump has trashed diplomatic bonds with countries that were carefully maintained by American presidents since the start of the Cold War.
That includes both Democrats and Republicans. e.g. the relations with Germany are at their worst point since the end of WWII.
How any Trump fan could possibly spin that into a positive is something I don't quite understand.
This is not North-Korea or China were talking about, but Germany, which should be one of the most idiot-proof relationships an American president has to administer.

When you've pissed off Canada, you are both very accomplished and also should probably be very careful of invading moose.

Offline WindFish

Re: Trump
« Reply #2513 on: December 31, 2017, 08:32:58 AM »
I do think that more direct speaking would be beneficial in politics in general. I don't mean people going out of their way to offend, but politicians not relying on a ton of elaborateness and perhaps people acknowledging that not everyone will always be able to convey their meaning perfectly the first time. I've felt that there's been a gap between a lot of current politicians and their constituents because they...just don't talk like their constituents. I think that is why Trump was appealing to some people--even people that normally wouldn't have voted for him.

Though with Trump...he's certainly blunt-speaking, but to use your, uh, puppy-sledgehammer analogy here...one of the reasons I don't like him is that I want someone who knows how to actually use a sledgehammer and knows what a rock is. I want someone who is not content with smashing puppies, man. If I can't trust someone not to smash puppies with a sledgehammer, I don't want 'em to have a sledgehammer.

That may be refreshing to some people, but Trump is a proven liar and narcissist. I would love a bluntly honest politician who actually speaks the truth, but Trump is not that politician. It also doesn't help that he can dish it, but he can't take it. As we've constantly seen, he'll lash out at even the slightest criticism and perceived slight and have a temper tantrum after. That behavior is simply unbecoming of anyone holding public office.

Online Regina Minx

Re: Trump
« Reply #2514 on: December 31, 2017, 08:47:40 AM »
In brief, here's why I'm ashamed of the President. Shamed, to use your language. I wouldn't use that term, but rather than quibble over the terminology, let me explain why I'm not a happy camper at present.

1. He isn’t good at anything a president has to do.

2. He doesn’t know anything about the issues.

3. He doesn’t care to learn.

4. He has no views about public policy.

5. Nothing he says can be trusted.

6. His model of leadership is to humiliate others.

I'm not interested in a hyperbolic anarchistic conversation in which we take it as granted that all politicians are worthless or liars. To the extent that it's true, it's true of all people, and more importantly it's not equally true of all people.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2515 on: December 31, 2017, 09:00:27 AM »
One of the big dailies here in Sweden asked ten people - writers, journalists, musicians - to forecast the media and cultural trends for next year. On the question "Who or what kind will make us feel provoked in 2018?" two of them answered: Trump. :D A third one replied: faked news.

And I don't doubt for one moment that they were right.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Trump
« Reply #2516 on: December 31, 2017, 09:27:41 AM »


On why I like Trump: Meet me in the middle. I said I liked him better than Obama, Clinton, and Bernie. I didn't say I liked him.

I can comment more, but it will be crude and poorly received I think. So I will instead say that I find the lack of tact refreshing. I'm sick of the politically correct bubble.

So you don't really like him, you simply dislike his predecessor and theoretical might-have-been opponents more. That's certainly a start, I know at least one GOP-aligned family member who openly hated Trump but still voted for him because 'anyone is better than Hillary', so it's not an attitude I am unfamiliar with. But meeting in the middle still requires figuring out where you stand, for comparison. We are very vocally anti-Trump here, but for specific reasons; he does things and says things that we do not approve of or disagree with.

You like his blunt words and lack of tact. That's a start in finding that middle ground, Blythe put it very well in that its novelty amidst mus-mouthed political speech is refreshing. What about the other flip-side? Are there things about Trump that you don't like?

Offline DominantPoet

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2517 on: December 31, 2017, 11:26:03 AM »
Is anybody here not ashamed to say that Donald Trump is the president?  Or is that a cardinal sin in these parts? I didn't vote for him, but I do sincerely like him better than Obama, Bernie, and Hillary.

He has no tact. I get it. He's a sledgehammer. Sometimes he smashes a mirror. Sometimes he smashes a door. Sometimes he smashes a puppy. Sometimes he smashes a rock, like he's supposed too. Every politician is useless. If they actually had any value, they wouldn't be politicians. I'm okay with a sledgehammer that occasionally breaks things it isn't supposed too. To me that's infinitely better than a weasil lying to your face, stealing when your back is turned, and then knifing you in the throat with tears in their eyes and a smile on their lips.

Trump cares about one thing, and one thing only - himself. If the litany of rallies (both before, and for whatever reason, after his election) where he is quite obviously enjoying the praise and adulation of people purely for saying words (literally, words, because a majority of the time, what he's saying is gibberish) doesn't convince you of this or show you this, well...just look at the redesign of the Presidential Coin. Which has his name on it not once, not twice, but thrice, along with his slogan.

Then, of course, you have the litany of things that show his absolute contempt and general disinterest for anyone but himself before he became President - the utter slew of contractors and businesses that he refused to pay for their work. The litany of sexual harassment allegations and lawsuits that span back decades. The fact that any movie studio that shot scenes on any property he owned having to put him into a scene...the man is a walking ego.

Finally, you have the fact that Trump is constantly and consistently taking credit for things he had no part in, purely because the results of someone else's actions happened to become apparent whilst he is President.

To me, personally, a sledgehammer is someone who upsets the established orders or norms of things because he wants to do better, to make things better. A fictional character like Malcolm Reynolds would be a good example. Or a real-world person like Elon Musk. Trump does things for Trump, nobody else. That doesn't really strike me as what a leader should be, especially the leader of what should be one of the greatest countries in the world.

Offline SithLordOfSnark

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2518 on: December 31, 2017, 11:30:28 AM »
My main reasoning for hating Trump is that he's a known bigot. I can't and won't get behind someone with his views.


Offline Lustful Bride

Re: Trump
« Reply #2519 on: December 31, 2017, 11:31:23 AM »
Is anybody here not ashamed to say that Donald Trump is the president?  Or is that a cardinal sin in these parts? I didn't vote for him, but I do sincerely like him better than Obama, Bernie, and Hillary.

He has no tact. I get it. He's a sledgehammer. Sometimes he smashes a mirror. Sometimes he smashes a door. Sometimes he smashes a puppy. Sometimes he smashes a rock, like he's supposed too. Every politician is useless. If they actually had any value, they wouldn't be politicians. I'm okay with a sledgehammer that occasionally breaks things it isn't supposed too. To me that's infinitely better than a weasil lying to your face, stealing when your back is turned, and then knifing you in the throat with tears in their eyes and a smile on their lips.

But, I also am the Ben Shapiro sort of right winger. As I said on my introduction, I am completely okay getting mean and nasty right back with people who want to go there. I'm also a Dave Ruben fan, and would be a liberal in the classical sense of the word. But I can't be anymore. In many ways, I've been pushed to the right side of the isle by the left. I don't buy the media. I loathe censorship. I detest mental illnesses and this strange phenomenon going on where everybody under the sun has one and it's okay. I cannot stand it when people do not accept responsibility OR consequences for their actions, and I absolutely want the least amount of rules, regulations, and government getting in my way or interfering in my life as possible.

I've recently watched Firefly and Serenity, and Malcolm Reynolds said two things that were like giant light bulbs for me that I completely agree with.

"Thats what governments are for, to get in a man's way."
"I just want to be left alone and go on my merry way."

Do I resonate with anybody in this thread? Or is this just a place to trash the American president? I'd like to find at least a few people with similar thoughts and beliefs as me to carry on with around here. :)

Meh he's not the antichrist like some people act, but he is indeed a crappy President overall. His presidency will be a net negative I feel. Especially for how he is costing this country international respect. Making us a joke on the world stage.

Offline Arianna

Re: Trump
« Reply #2520 on: December 31, 2017, 11:48:45 AM »
To me, personally, a sledgehammer is someone who upsets the established orders or norms of things because he wants to do better, to make things better. A fictional character like Malcolm Reynolds would be a good example. Or a real-world person like Elon Musk. Trump does things for Trump, nobody else. That doesn't really strike me as what a leader should be, especially the leader of what should be one of the greatest countries in the world.

THIS and also...

Meh he's not the antichrist like some people act, but he is indeed a crappy President overall. His presidency will be a net negative I feel. Especially for how he is costing this country international respect. Making us a joke on the world stage.

...regarding this. You know what scares me the most? The number of people I have witnessed with my own eyes being, plain and simple, absolute jerks because they all of the sudden feel entitled to speak their mind, some even quoting "grab 'em by the p****" in the process (best example, see grand wizard of kkk stating that all people of color should make their own state and that he will peacefully fight for this, until they will keep refusing, and then he will resort to violence).

Three more years of this attitude will be scary. The only good part that I hope will continue to happen, is how hard the opposition is shouting lately as well (see the #metoo movement). Maybe I was not as in tune with this stuff before, I am not sure, but this is what I see at the moment and can't help thinking there are quite a few connections to the current POTUS.

Offline Blythe

Re: Trump
« Reply #2521 on: December 31, 2017, 12:51:01 PM »
That may be refreshing to some people, but Trump is a proven liar and narcissist. I would love a bluntly honest politician who actually speaks the truth, but Trump is not that politician. It also doesn't help that he can dish it, but he can't take it. As we've constantly seen, he'll lash out at even the slightest criticism and perceived slight and have a temper tantrum after. That behavior is simply unbecoming of anyone holding public office.

I'm not the person you have to convince of that. I'm not a Trump supporter, and just because I mentioned that I'd be fine with more direct speaking in politics doesn't mean I'm implying Trump is somehow good at it or the even the type of directness I want to see in politics.  :P

Personally, I don't think Trump can even properly dish it, let alone take it. Being able to dish it requires a certain honesty in the first place.

I was more of a Bernie guy during the election, but once Bernie was out of it, Hillary was my gal. I didn't always agree with every stance either of them had, but both were far better than watching the sudden spiking and embrace of anti-intellectualism that came with Trump.

Offline Orval Wintermute

Re: Trump
« Reply #2522 on: December 31, 2017, 01:29:32 PM »
Every politician is useless. If they actually had any value, they wouldn't be politicians.
Sorry, but this just toxic.
A little over 18 months ago Jo Cox, a UK MP, was murdered because somebody didn't like her views on the Brexit referendum. There were some of the extremes who didn't have a problem with her murder because she was "a traitor" and "a politician" and she "deserved it", she had no value. Then in the past couple of months a few Conservatives who have been vocal opponents of the Brexit process have been labelled "traitors" by the gutter press and the response from the extremes? One female MP had death threats made against her include messages like "Someone should do a Jo Cox on the worthless bitch."

Now I know a number of local politicians and some of them are absolutely terrible at their jobs, some of them are there for reasons of ego. But mostly they are hard working people, honestly trying to do the best they can to improve the lives of the people they represent. There is one individual who's politics I cannot stand and part of me wishes they'd disappear in a cloud of smoke but they honestly believe they are doing the best for other people, it may make them 200% wrong but it doesn't mean they are useless or have no value.

Offline Cassandra LeMay

Re: Trump
« Reply #2523 on: December 31, 2017, 01:44:53 PM »
... He has no tact. I get it. He's a sledgehammer. Sometimes he smashes a mirror. Sometimes he smashes a door. Sometimes he smashes a puppy. Sometimes he smashes a rock, like he's supposed too. Every politician is useless. If they actually had any value, they wouldn't be politicians.
I hope you will forgive someone who is not an American offering an answer to your question. (If you do, just ignore me.)

The problem with smashing things is that it does not create anything. If the system does not work, ending the way things are done might be all well and good, but comes after. If a building is dilapidated and not fit for living in, you might well opt to demolish it. But what comes after that? You would think building a better building would be next, but I don't see that with Trump.

If you apply the sledgehammer you should have some builders' tools also ready. But Trump seems only interested in smashing things and leaving the wreckage for other people to clear up. Where is the leadership? Where are the constructive ideas? For a guy from the real estate sector he is amazingly unwilling to take the leadership in actually building things (except the border wall that may never get funded - or built - and strikes me as mostly a publicity stunt).

(I also do not agree with your blanket statement about politicians, but that may be a topic for another thread. Not to mention that Trump is a politician now.)

I cannot stand it when people do not accept responsibility OR consequences for their actions, and I absolutely want the least amount of rules, regulations, and government getting in my way or interfering in my life as possible.
The extend to which government should interfere with individual freedoms is as old as governments. It's the question of the good of the many. Mankind has not found a definite, universal answer to that question in thousands of years and we will not find it here. I guess to some extend we will have to agree to disagree on that topic.

But where I strongly disagree with you is voting for Trump when you claim you can not stand people who do not accept responsibility. With him it's always someone else who is the problem. For Trump it's never him. He is the embodiment of someone who can not accept when he is wrong, when he messes up things, when the backlash against his actions could (and should) have been foreseen and could have been avoided by more careful actions.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: Trump
« Reply #2524 on: December 31, 2017, 06:01:01 PM »
There is a large number of reasons that I don’t trust the president:
1. He is a well established liar, come on..he even posed as his own PR rep in the old days
2. He learned his legal practices at the hand of Roy Cohn, one of McCarthy’s minions. Of course after Roy developed full blow AIDS, he dropped him like a hot potato
3. He undercuts his contractor or straight defaults on his contracts. One of my buds who lived in nyc said bid high on his jobs to ensure that he pays at least SOME of what he owes. Like 2-3 times what they would typically bid.
4. He operates on debt so big he can hold banks hostage, and has..threatening to go chapter 11 to default or cut his costs
5. It’s always SOMEONE ELSE’S fault. ‘I did this, now Congress needs to do ‘x’ to get things right.” For a man with big plans, he seems more prone to pull down something and leave congress with the blowback. Taxes, DACA and this list goes on.

I means, look at his actions with Comey and others. You must be loyal to me, but I need not reciprocated is his actions.

I watch him criticizing his cabinet and I see a lot of the same actions used by 3rd world despots.