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Offline Trevino

Re: Trump
« Reply #2375 on: December 02, 2017, 03:06:44 PM »
Although I appreciate that you're on a roll here, one point:

I mean....every single Democrat in the Senate voted against the tax bill. What are you upset about, that they didn't vote NO hard enough?

First, minor correction: on that one part I actually meant to use this article.


Now then, yes they did vote "no", I get that. The point, however, is that they don't have the capability to meaningfully oppose the Republicans on a strategic level. It goes far beyond just simply casting votes in Congress, they are an empty shell of a party as is, largely due to self inflicted wounds.

Offline Trevino

Re: Trump
« Reply #2376 on: December 02, 2017, 03:12:30 PM »
I mean, if they were actually worth a damn, this horrendous tax bill would have never been drafted in the first place.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2377 on: December 02, 2017, 03:23:52 PM »
I would actually be genuinely interested in what someone who's middle-class feels are the benefits of the tax bill. Since politics and political beliefs are often not entirely about facts (on either side, peeps), I'm wondering what the dealio is for people who support it. Like, does it boil down to "yay, job growth!"? Where is the dedication to trickle-down coming from? Are there canonical examples of it working?

I know I'm not in the right place to get a good answer to that, but I... *shrug*

I was talking to a friend this morning about politics and my friend observed that they know several people who are "Conservative" as part of their identity, but when my friend engages them on specific issues (gay marriage, the refugee crisis, etc), their views are actually quite progressive. But they'll vote for the GOP every time, because "Conservative" label. I want to know more about these people, and what they're afraid of. What they hope for. What they envision for the future. Compromise really has to start somewhere, and I really would like to know where we can find the point of agreement again. In the past, it was agreement that at the very least, poor children need food (ergo TANF) and healthcare (ergo CHIP). I'm interested in finding those overlapping seams again.

But I don't think we're going to have an easy time of it with Fuckface McConnell, Dudebro Ryan, and Babyhands Trump heading things up. The toxic triumvirate has got to go.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Trump
« Reply #2378 on: December 02, 2017, 03:28:12 PM »
Most of my extended family are middle-class, but are diehard GOP voters of the 'The Second Amendment Is The Only Amendment' flavor. They're generally socially progressive, but the Republicans Protect Gun Rights and are thus Good, the Democrats will Take Their Guns Away and so are Bad.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Trump
« Reply #2379 on: December 02, 2017, 03:38:24 PM »
They were taxed by previous administrations to the point of stifling growth, growth means the folks you're talking about can get jobs because companies won't be in a hold pattern just trying to survive. There HAS to be rich people. Trickle down economics is the only thing that actually works. Trickle up doesn't because there's nothing to trickle, trickle to the side doesn't work because everything stays flat. There has to be wealthy people.
Trickle down doesn't work. Didn't when it was tried in the 80s. Fun note a lot of the GOP forgets.. yeah, Reagan dropped taxes.. but he also raised other taxes like capital gains and estate taxes. WHich is not the case in this last round.

Trickle down works when it trickles down locally.. outsourcing is move cost effective. You want them to spread the wealth locally.. you incentivise locally.. which isn't being done. I'm all for lower corporate taxes.. but a LOT of the tax breaks that I think should be done is to invest in communities inside the us. Like breaks for increasing utility use and growth in a region instead of breaks for utlity development or such.

Investment in the community is the way t enourage the growth that trickle down is supposed to do. Look at how things work now.. company comes in.. gets a bond to settle in or a tax break from utility use for 'X' numbers of years. I think a break for investing in a community would work better.. if you're a company and spent X number of dollars road/utility development.. that is part of your money,


Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2380 on: December 02, 2017, 09:34:45 PM »
The only thing that can save the US now from some major economic disasters is a war economy. In fact, it seems like this is being pushed for more and more under the Trump administration.

Online Oniya

Re: Trump
« Reply #2381 on: December 02, 2017, 10:31:52 PM »
I'm going to point out something that I've mentioned under other circumstances:  Doom and gloom do not get people motivated.  In most cases, a continual diet of pessimism will cause people to simply give up.  Assuming that no one here wants everyone to just give up, of course.

The thing about a 'war economy' that benefits a country is that the workforce is mobilized towards a common goal.  If we could get that sort of enthusiasm towards a constructive goal (because let's face it, the only way to win Thermonuclear War is not to play), then we could turn the economy around without a war.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Trump
« Reply #2382 on: December 02, 2017, 11:00:11 PM »
If only someone hadn't gutted NASA's funding because of that icky climate change research work...

Offline Trieste

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2383 on: December 02, 2017, 11:40:47 PM »
I'm going to point out something that I've mentioned under other circumstances:  Doom and gloom do not get people motivated.  In most cases, a continual diet of pessimism will cause people to simply give up.  Assuming that no one here wants everyone to just give up, of course.

The thing about a 'war economy' that benefits a country is that the workforce is mobilized towards a common goal.  If we could get that sort of enthusiasm towards a constructive goal (because let's face it, the only way to win Thermonuclear War is not to play), then we could turn the economy around without a war.

That first paragraph, tho'.


Offline Trevino

Re: Trump
« Reply #2384 on: December 03, 2017, 06:41:43 AM »
I'm going to point out something that I've mentioned under other circumstances:  Doom and gloom do not get people motivated.  In most cases, a continual diet of pessimism will cause people to simply give up.  Assuming that no one here wants everyone to just give up, of course.

In my view I think it is more important to have a realistic assessment and a thorough understanding of the situation at hand when setting out to confront problems. Otherwise, you will just set yourself up for massive disappointment and disillusionment later down the line. It has nothing to do with optimism vs pessimism, since either position could be correct depending the circumstances.
 
My assessment seems all doom and gloom because the situation really is that bad. Things are falling apart, in many cases quite literally.

Going beyond electoral politics, the problems outlined are going to take at least a generation to solve.


I was talking to a friend this morning about politics and my friend observed that they know several people who are "Conservative" as part of their identity, but when my friend engages them on specific issues (gay marriage, the refugee crisis, etc), their views are actually quite progressive. But they'll vote for the GOP every time, because "Conservative" label. I want to know more about these people, and what they're afraid of. What they hope for. What they envision for the future. Compromise really has to start somewhere, and I really would like to know where we can find the point of agreement again. In the past, it was agreement that at the very least, poor children need food (ergo TANF) and healthcare (ergo CHIP). I'm interested in finding those overlapping seams again.

I think this would be a colossal waste of time and energy. They always find an excuse to vote Republican despite being relatively "progressive", "socially liberal", and so on. That they vote otherwise speaks volumes about their sincerity, as it implies that they are either stupid, or they are just simply lying and actually don't care.

In the words of a wise relationship guru, its time to let it go, they just aren't that into you...

In my view, you would be better off going after the +100 million people who don't participate in elections, and getting them to vote.

Offline Serephino

Re: Trump
« Reply #2385 on: December 03, 2017, 07:00:28 AM »
See, now this is the problem!  Just writing off people who vote Republican as stupid or false.  I am so freaking sick of feeling like I'm in an ideological war.  This is why hardly anything is getting done.  We're not supposed to be blood enemies, but rather find common ground.  George Washington warned against parties, and he was a very smart man, but we didn't listen, and now we gotta put our big boy panties on to fix this crap.  The situation at hand is really bad, I know, I'm not sticking my head in the sand about that.  But I also know that very little is impossible when the right people quit being complacent and take the wheel back. 

The whole tribe thing is deeply ingrained in us so I'm told.  I watched this Youtube video about it, and how someone from another tribe is seen as a huge threat and logic reason often shut down.  The key to approaching the other side is to find some common ground, and show the other person that you aren't really that different.  That way they don't react to you with hackles raised and willful ignorance, but they'll actually listen to what you have to say.   

Offline Trevino

Re: Trump
« Reply #2386 on: December 03, 2017, 07:17:10 AM »
See, now this is the problem!  Just writing off people who vote Republican as stupid or false.  I am so freaking sick of feeling like I'm in an ideological war.  This is why hardly anything is getting done.  We're not supposed to be blood enemies, but rather find common ground.  George Washington warned against parties, and he was a very smart man, but we didn't listen, and now we gotta put our big boy panties on to fix this crap.  The situation at hand is really bad, I know, I'm not sticking my head in the sand about that.  But I also know that very little is impossible when the right people quit being complacent and take the wheel back. 

The whole tribe thing is deeply ingrained in us so I'm told.  I watched this Youtube video about it, and how someone from another tribe is seen as a huge threat and logic reason often shut down.  The key to approaching the other side is to find some common ground, and show the other person that you aren't really that different.  That way they don't react to you with hackles raised and willful ignorance, but they'll actually listen to what you have to say.   


Common ground with what? I don't want to have common ground with racists, misogynists, warmongers, corporate hacks, etc.

We are talking about people who are willing to sell out the country and their moral integrity in return for short term profit (only if you happen to be within the 0.1%, otherwise sucks for you!), a small firearm, and continued bad faith in an absurd fantasy.

Quite honestly, I think any further commentary here would be superfluous.

Offline Trevino

Re: Trump
« Reply #2387 on: December 03, 2017, 08:48:48 AM »
Trump's chances of impeachment has actually decreased BTW: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/12/trump-impeachment/547358/

Not that it would matter, since you have Pence. And if Pence goes, then you have Paul Ryan...

It's over, the system has failed.

Offline Mithlomwen

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2388 on: December 03, 2017, 09:16:29 AM »
In my view I think it is more important to have a realistic assessment and a thorough understanding of the situation at hand when setting out to confront problems. Otherwise, you will just set yourself up for massive disappointment and disillusionment later down the line. It has nothing to do with optimism vs pessimism, since either position could be correct depending the circumstances.
 
My assessment seems all doom and gloom because the situation really is that bad. Things are falling apart, in many cases quite literally.

Being realistic is fine.  Providing information is fine. 

I think most of us realize how bad things are.  Most of us are probably genuinely worried sick about the future. 

But, there comes a point when having it continually pointed out just how horrible things are,  does little to help the situation.  Reading again and again how the system has failed, and there's nothing we can do about it, does little to help the situation.  All it does is depress people and make them want to give up on everything. 

Because, if there's truly nothing anyone can do, why even bother?  You know? 


Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Trump
« Reply #2389 on: December 03, 2017, 10:01:43 AM »
Claiming to be 'realistic' or 'grounded' only works when confronting the problem comes before actually offering or attempting a solution. Simply insisting that it's all futile and hopeless, the end is at hand, we're all doomed and there is nothing we can do to stop it...that's just fatalistic nihilism. Great for college philosophy classes, coffee bars, and cynical expatriates, not so practical in the real world when the issues being bemoaned actually affect you and give you a stake in trying to change them.

Offline MiraMirror

Re: Trump
« Reply #2390 on: December 03, 2017, 10:10:21 AM »
Being realistic is fine.  Providing information is fine. 

I think most of us realize how bad things are.  Most of us are probably genuinely worried sick about the future. 

But, there comes a point when having it continually pointed out just how horrible things are,  does little to help the situation.  Reading again and again how the system has failed, and there's nothing we can do about it, does little to help the situation.  All it does is depress people and make them want to give up on everything. 

Because, if there's truly nothing anyone can do, why even bother?  You know?

Pretty much this.  Things are horrible.   Things have been horrible since Trump became president, and they've been getting worse every day, every week, every month.   This is something I'm pretty sure everyone's aware of.  The first thing I see on social media every morning is what new BS Trump or his cronies have enacted, or what new racist/bigoted idiocy they've encouraged.   There's an entire thread here on him, and I look because, well...I have no idea why, but I do. I hear about Trump from the few friends I have, and my mom, who's worrying herself sick about be daily.   Each day, she thinks I'm going to get hurt, with the string of violence that's become so common.

Every time they pass another awful bill, I lose a little faith in humanity.   Every time I tell myself, "Humans can't possibly be this greedy or uncaring", and they do it anyway,  it hurts me in a way that nothing else can, in the heart.  I know how bad things are.   We all do.   But being told day in and day out, day after day after day, every week, is draining .  It isn't spurring people on or encouraging.  It's teaching, it's painful, and it's an exercise in hope, because it would be so easy to just stop caring and give up.  It hurts to see my home devolve like this, and I'm not saying we should ignore what's happening, but having it pointed out and stressed like this weighs on the heart like a star or a planet, and we are not Atlas.

Offline Trevino

Re: Trump
« Reply #2391 on: December 03, 2017, 10:19:25 AM »
Being realistic is fine.  Providing information is fine. 

I think most of us realize how bad things are.  Most of us are probably genuinely worried sick about the future. 

But, there comes a point when having it continually pointed out just how horrible things are,  does little to help the situation.  Reading again and again how the system has failed, and there's nothing we can do about it, does little to help the situation.  All it does is depress people and make them want to give up on everything. 

Because, if there's truly nothing anyone can do, why even bother?  You know?

I think it was Carl Sagan who said that it was better to embrace hard truths rather than a reassuring fable, was it not?

I'm not saying that optimism is worthless, but rather to temper your expectations with reality. Else you will end up doing little more than rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Claiming to be 'realistic' or 'grounded' only works when confronting the problem comes before actually offering or attempting a solution. Simply insisting that it's all futile and hopeless, the end is at hand, we're all doomed and there is nothing we can do to stop it...that's just fatalistic nihilism. Great for college philosophy classes, coffee bars, and cynical expatriates, not so practical in the real world when the issues being bemoaned actually affect you and give you a stake in trying to change them.

You dont say.... And how, exactly, do you expect to resolve those problems? I come primarily from a science and engineering background, so I'm inclined to believe only in what I can see. The first step to solving any problem is deciding whether or not a solution exists.

Offline Mithlomwen

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2392 on: December 03, 2017, 10:29:17 AM »
I think it was Carl Sagan who said that it was better to embrace hard truths rather than a reassuring fable, was it not?

I'm not saying that optimism is worthless, but rather to temper your expectations with reality. Else you will end up doing little more than rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

I don't think anyone is implying that they are embracing a reassuring fable. 

People are simply trying to point out to you that the constant hammering home of the 'everything is finished, the system has failed, democracy is finished, the U.S. as we know it is damaged beyond repair' isn't helping.

I think we all know what the realities are, we all realize the truth of what has happened and is happening.  But beating the proverbial dead horse isn't helping anything. 

Being informed is a great thing.  The more you know, the better you are able to make informed decisions.  But when the only information provided is a constant stream of negativity without any positive insights, it has the opposite effect. 

Offline Serephino

Re: Trump
« Reply #2393 on: December 03, 2017, 10:32:04 AM »
The us vs. them mindset... it really is making me feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall.  What do I have in common with Conservatives?  Well, I am very pro- balanced budget.  I want to see this country have a surplus again.  We might disagree on where the money should go... but baby steps.  It really does baffle me how anyone could still support the giant stupid cheeto...  The last figure I heard was that 83% of Republicans are still behind him, and I just can't...  But people have their reasons, and I do not write it all off as every single one of them are racist and whatever else.  My roommate knows a guy who seems to be a decent guy, he helped us move the first time.  But he supported Trump because of the abortion issue.  That was the only reason.  A really dumb reason if you ask me...

But I think part of the reason Republican voters are digging their heels in so badly is that they feel attacked.  In their point of view we Liberals are just upset and raising a stink.  And the more we attack them, the more it convinces them they are right.  Trump keeps saying the media has it out for him, except Fox News of course, and everything bad reported about him are outright lies because of bias.  It's a giant clusterfuck with everyone yelling at everyone instead of being civil, and it really does make me want to hide under a rock for a while.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Trump
« Reply #2394 on: December 03, 2017, 10:33:40 AM »
Not to mention that you're not even a US resident anymore (or even a citizen? unclear). If you even actually lived here, there would be a tempering element of 'woe is us, we're doomed', but instead you have a distinct angle of 'haha you're doomed sucks to be you'. There's being realistic and then there is just maliciously mocking other people's woes, which is not constructive in the slightest.

Offline Trevino

Re: Trump
« Reply #2395 on: December 03, 2017, 10:37:24 AM »
The us vs. them mindset... it really is making me feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall.  What do I have in common with Conservatives?  Well, I am very pro- balanced budget.  I want to see this country have a surplus again.  We might disagree on where the money should go... but baby steps.  It really does baffle me how anyone could still support the giant stupid cheeto...  The last figure I heard was that 83% of Republicans are still behind him, and I just can't...  But people have their reasons, and I do not write it all off as every single one of them are racist and whatever else.  My roommate knows a guy who seems to be a decent guy, he helped us move the first time.  But he supported Trump because of the abortion issue.  That was the only reason.  A really dumb reason if you ask me...

But I think part of the reason Republican voters are digging their heels in so badly is that they feel attacked.  In their point of view we Liberals are just upset and raising a stink.  And the more we attack them, the more it convinces them they are right.  Trump keeps saying the media has it out for him, except Fox News of course, and everything bad reported about him are outright lies because of bias.  It's a giant clusterfuck with everyone yelling at everyone instead of being civil, and it really does make me want to hide under a rock for a while.


and

Every time they pass another awful bill, I lose a little faith in humanity.   Every time I tell myself, "Humans can't possibly be this greedy or uncaring", and they do it anyway,  it hurts me in a way that nothing else can, in the heart.  I know how bad things are.   We all do.   But being told day in and day out, day after day after day, every week, is draining .  It isn't spurring people on or encouraging.  It's teaching, it's painful, and it's an exercise in hope, because it would be so easy to just stop caring and give up.  It hurts to see my home devolve like this, and I'm not saying we should ignore what's happening, but having it pointed out and stressed like this weighs on the heart like a star or a planet, and we are not Atlas.

It's worse then that, because for a significant portion of the American population (i.e the vast majority of Trump voters), they don't even believe that there is a problem.  They are just too incompetent and stupid to figure it out.

Or if they do think there are problems, they think it's because we have the nerve to extend civil rights to minorities and women, or to raise the minimum wage, care about the environment, etc. And so decide to vote for these awful people because they promise to persecute the vulnerable.

What can you possibly do about that?

Offline Valerian

Re: Trump
« Reply #2396 on: December 03, 2017, 10:47:43 AM »
I can only speak to what I'm doing, but here it is.

  • Calling my senators and reps regularly
  • Attending protests
  • Using social media and face to face meetings to encourage more people to vote
  • Helping people register to vote
  • Voting myself in ALL available elections

You're looking at huge problems and assuming they require huge (and apparently near-instantaneous) solutions, when in fact smaller, more local efforts generally have the best effects.  Rational citizens outnumber the willfully ignorant Trump supporters.  Eventually it will be possible for the tide to turn... but not if we take your advice, which is to throw up our hands and cower in the corner until the world comes to an end.  I'd rather acknowledge the problems and then tackle them, one step at a time.

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2397 on: December 03, 2017, 10:48:39 AM »
Okay, okay. I was with you until you used the late Sagan to prop up your nonsense.

I'm generally of a pessimistic type as well, I generally feel that mankind will fail and disappoint me at every available opportunity. That way, if things do go well (For instance, coming here to E and finding the people here who continue to inspire me to lay pessimism to rest every morning and enjoy my time), I can appreciate the subversion of expectations.

That said, no one has been sticking their heads in the sand. If it were a thread full of people who hadn't encouraged, time and again, calling representatives, voting for mid-term elections, outlining the importance of an action plan and so forth then yes, they would be the audience for this sort of reminder. Part of being an effective communicator is to know to which audience you speak. That, too, was Carl Sagan via Neil DeGrasse-Tyson. If you are preaching to the choir, so to speak, your words are self-serving and useless.

There are, of course, people that do need to hear this and those are the ones who are so willfully ignorant that they are unlikely to take in the message to begin with. So, I can understand the reason for your frustration with them and we are perfectly able to commiserate with the idea of being surrounded by people so willing to ignore reality that they're putting everyone else in danger simply by their expressed lack of desire to take action against the administration in question. I can understand why you sound frustrated. We all are.

That could be why the reminder of things we're all trying to say, all trying to tell people, is becoming a burr to most. We're aware and don't need to be reminded while we are the ones out trying to make people aware of the same thing. It's like being rushed by a third party as you're trying to make an appointment on time. It will cause someone to snap at you, regardless whether you're right or even if they agree with you.

So, we don't disagree with you, Trevino. All we're saying is that we can only handle so much doom and gloom in our conversation. Point it out. Fine. Just please don't harp on about it. We know, and don't really think the lecture is doing us any good. 



Serephino

I'm not sure he was saying Republicans are a lost cause. I think what was being said was that there is a particular SORT of person who is a lost cause. Those that will willfully ignore that something bad is happening in order to be blindly loyal to that tribalism that you're talking about. Those that have progressive views but vote Republican because they're republicans and that's what good republicans do (Or christian because that's what good Christians do, or men for men, or women for women, or democrat because democrat, etc). Those are the people that vote against their beliefs because tribalism is more important to them than value.

I could be mistaken, of course, and don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but I believe that to be what was being referred to. Not that Republicans as a whole are bad, only that people who vote against their own interests because of that tribalism are a lost cause. The example that was actively being used, however, was at the time Republicans, so that's where the example remained.

Offline Trevino

Re: Trump
« Reply #2398 on: December 03, 2017, 10:51:30 AM »
I don't think anyone is implying that they are embracing a reassuring fable. 

People are simply trying to point out to you that the constant hammering home of the 'everything is finished, the system has failed, democracy is finished, the U.S. as we know it is damaged beyond repair' isn't helping.

I think we all know what the realities are, we all realize the truth of what has happened and is happening.  But beating the proverbial dead horse isn't helping anything. 

Being informed is a great thing.  The more you know, the better you are able to make informed decisions.  But when the only information provided is a constant stream of negativity without any positive insights, it has the opposite effect.

I don't know, if someone has only 6 months to live due to decades of heavy smoking, can you in good conscience say that everything is alright? Same principle applies here. I'm sorry, but America has dug itself into a deep, deep hole.

Not to mention that you're not even a US resident anymore (or even a citizen? unclear). If you even actually lived here, there would be a tempering element of 'woe is us, we're doomed', but instead you have a distinct angle of 'haha you're doomed sucks to be you'. There's being realistic and then there is just maliciously mocking other people's woes, which is not constructive in the slightest.

I lived in America for all my life, up until this past September. I may not be there anymore, but that doesn't mean that I don't care anymore.

But you know what, you are right. I'll leave it to you all to figure it out, as it's out of my hands now. Better that I should move on and focus on making my new home a better place...

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2399 on: December 03, 2017, 10:53:59 AM »
Not to mention that you're not even a US resident anymore (or even a citizen? unclear). If you even actually lived here, there would be a tempering element of 'woe is us, we're doomed', but instead you have a distinct angle of 'haha you're doomed sucks to be you'. There's being realistic and then there is just maliciously mocking other people's woes, which is not constructive in the slightest.


Glyph, this is kinda unfair. I, as a Canadian, am terrified about what all of this would mean because the vast majority of our exports go to the US. If they suffer economic failure, so do we. We usually suffer it just behind them, and while it's not as deep, it is longer. We're still going through a recession that began in the US about what... a decade plus ago, now? Cultural influence from there hits us hard here, too, as well as policy. All of these things have a direct impact on us because of how closely linked our culture and economic basis is with the US, so depending on where Trevino is living now, there might be a legitimate reason for him to still feel as though this impacts him.

That said, I know it can FEEL like he's pointing and laughing if you recall that he's not living in the US anymore, but I don't think that was what he meant to convey.