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Author Topic: [US 3rd Party Supporters] Sell me on the third party vote  (Read 574 times)

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Offline SkynetTopic starter

[US 3rd Party Supporters] Sell me on the third party vote
« on: September 22, 2016, 04:48:56 PM »
I am already very familiar with the arguments against it, so I wanted to hear from folks on E why I should vote third party. Not anybody in particular, but for Jill Stein/Gary Johnson supporters you can tell me why you'd prefer those candidates over the big 2 already.

I am personally a liberal/leftist and can't stand Trump. I'm not a fan of Hillary, although I'd view her presidency as bad yet less destructive than Trump's. But when it comes to 3rd party candidates they to me seem to be either

a.) not popular enough to have any real political power, and thus can't create effective change (at least in government), or

b.) tend to be ideologically extreme which turns a lot of people off in the first place.

As of now I haven't found enough reason to support Jill Stein, as her choice of VP is like one of those jerks who has no tact and the Green Party's supposed anti-science/anti-vaxx stuff worries me. Gary Johnson's a Libertarian, and overall I like them better than Republicans. Yet I don't think that getting rid of regulations in the marketplace is an effective solution when so many big businesses make profits against the public's welfare and interest.

So my thing is that I can't see myself voting for a person I like; more to stem the tide of something worse. I liked Bernie, but realized that even if elected he'd have a Congress against him (even Democrats are afraid of Socialists) and we'd end up with a stonewalled Capitol Hill like during the Obama years.

Edit: meant to say "less destructive than well destructive"
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 06:40:25 PM by Skynet »

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Re: [US 3rd Party Supporters] Sell me on the third party vote
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2016, 05:59:50 PM »
I would like to throw my hat in this ring as well.

At the moment I am voting for Hilary only because I feel Trump would burn the country faster than her. But if a good 3rd option is around that could actually win, I would happily take it.

Offline WhatLiesAbove

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Re: [US 3rd Party Supporters] Sell me on the third party vote
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2016, 09:44:30 PM »
This may upset some people, but I feel the need to point it out.

Jill Stein is not going to win the election. She has less than 10% nationally. Even if you agree with everything she says (even though her calling Bernie Sanders a "Washington DC insider" made me lose any and all respect for her), she has as much chance to win as I do. And I'm a Canadian citizen living in the United States.

People seem to flock behind Gary Johnson because they think Libertarians are cool. Mostly because libertarians have been the most vocal about legalizing weed. All well and good, until you look at the full platform. Gary Johnson also wants to privatize education, push the TPP and KXL, drop taxation rates completely and put up a flat tax, and does not oppose fracking. Oh, and he would do away with student loans...which sound good at first, until you realize that that would,make colleg unaffordable to anyone who isn't rich.

Offline Cassandra LeMay

Re: [US 3rd Party Supporters] Sell me on the third party vote
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2016, 01:35:06 PM »
As much as I would like to honor your request and give you some solid reasons to vote for a third party candidate this time, I can not.

If the US had a different election system I might find some things in the Green Party platform that could perhaps make a convincing argument for them, but I see problems with Stein and her VP pick is ... let's say a bit questionable.

As for Johnson and the Libertarians, the great thing with the Libertarian platform is that it offers something for everyone - to hate. (Some) kidding aside, their platform worries me, as it might very well lead to a complete deregulation of large businesses.

The best reason I can see to vote for a third party candidate would be to send a message to the next president that the topics and ideas in that party platform matter. But the major problem there is  - who will that message be sent to? A president Trump who probably doesn't care what other people think anyway, or a president Clinton who may not be all that likeable as a person but has experience in getting a job done and runs on a party platform that has adopted quite a few of Sanders positions?

My best advice (as someone not having any direct stake in this election) would be to vote strategically. If you are in a state that is so clearly blue or red that it can only go one way - vote for a third party candidate that runs on a platform that agrees with you. If you are in a swing state -and don't like either Trump or Clinto -  vote for the candidate that you think will take into account how independent voters cast their ballot.

Online theLeslie

Re: [US 3rd Party Supporters] Sell me on the third party vote
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2016, 11:48:42 PM »
You should not need to be sold on the third party vote.  You should vote how your heart dictates, nothing more.

Keep in mind that the only argument for only going primary party is "everyone else is doing it".

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Re: [US 3rd Party Supporters] Sell me on the third party vote
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2016, 05:04:30 PM »
Thought this was a decent read when it came to why vote third parties:  http://www.john-uebersax.com/plato/thirdparty.htm


I will be voting Libertarian, as I find myself closest to their platform.

Offline elone

Re: [US 3rd Party Supporters] Sell me on the third party vote
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2016, 07:50:46 PM »
I cannot in good conscience vote for either Clinton or Trump. The third party candidates do not thrill me. Still, voting is a privilege  that I do not take lightly. I will vote.

Voting third party, or even a write in, will express my dissatisfaction with the system and if enough people vote for other than the "Two", them maybe one day we can have a viable third party, or fourth party as a choice. If third party candidates can total a decent percentage, then others will be encouraged to run and build on that small success. Eventually, the third party will grow and become competitive, especially if we keep getting choices like this election.

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Re: [US 3rd Party Supporters] Sell me on the third party vote
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2016, 09:17:31 PM »
Viable third parties in the United States are the result of dissatisfaction with one of the two primary parties, and in US history they have even replaced one of the two primary parties.  The Republican Party did so to the Whig Party.

I can see the current Republican party having a strong possibility of splitting into a more populist Tea Party sort, and a more establishment Republican party remain.  There is a chance that if it does split, it might break into multiple parties--a more evangelical, religion-based party, a party focused around nationalism, and one with greater interest in economics.  I'd expect the Libertarian Party to pick up many disaffected former Republicans in such an instance.

The Democrats have a small chance of fracturing, too.  The Clinton/Obama wing is socially liberal but economically center-right.  The more progressive Democrats--the ones who supported Sanders--could possibly foment a breakup and new party, if the Republicans did so first.  Why?  A smaller but truly progressive party would have a much greater chance to win an election if the two primary parties disintegrated.

I don't see either possibility as likely, but the Republicans splitting is much more possible.

As far as viable 3rd parties...no.  Until we get money out of politics, smaller parties will never have a chance against the big two, which are both supported by inertia, tradition, and scads of money from the elite.

Offline Tamhansen

Re: [US 3rd Party Supporters] Sell me on the third party vote
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2016, 04:27:08 AM »
Also, we'd need viable third party candidates

At this point the two likely third party candidates are Jill Stein who runs on an anti GMo/Anti vax anti anything remotely sciency platform, and Gary Johnson who so far seems to need cue cards to remember his own name.

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Re: [US 3rd Party Supporters] Sell me on the third party vote
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2016, 06:21:41 AM »
I would be more likely to vote for a third party candidate if more of them were running for office in more local and state offices.  I think the system needs to change for that to be easier for them to do though (Not sure how though).  Running a candidate for president seems like going backwards to me if they want to strengthen their party/parties though.

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Re: [US 3rd Party Supporters] Sell me on the third party vote
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2016, 07:45:58 PM »
Is it wrong that I'm desperate enough to hope that the tiger guy from that John Oliver video wins somehow?.... 

Offline Tamhansen

Re: [US 3rd Party Supporters] Sell me on the third party vote
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2016, 08:41:34 AM »
Exotic 2016!!!

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Re: [US 3rd Party Supporters] Sell me on the third party vote
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2016, 06:52:33 PM »
I'm up in Canuckianville myself, so I can't actually vote in this particular election.

However, I do vote in every one that deals with the election of government up here when we have one. I rarely vote with the crowds, in fact the only time I did was last time when we were intent on ousting Harper as PM. I voted Liberal. The time before that, I voted for the Green Party, and the time before that I voted for a different one that eludes me now.

However, if I lived in the US, I would undoubtedly vote for a third party, even though to my understanding it's impossible for a third party to win regardless with how the systems are set up. To even get a third party potential for President in the US, don't they have to garner 5% of the national vote in an election year, then four years later they can be an actual potential? I didn't read much into it, because...confusing *laughs*

Regardless, I still would. If I didn't have that option, I'd vote Hillary, lesser of two evils. That's my two cents :D

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Re: [US 3rd Party Supporters] Sell me on the third party vote
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2016, 07:00:42 PM »
I'm up in Canuckianville myself, so I can't actually vote in this particular election.

However, I do vote in every one that deals with the election of government up here when we have one. I rarely vote with the crowds, in fact the only time I did was last time when we were intent on ousting Harper as PM. I voted Liberal. The time before that, I voted for the Green Party, and the time before that I voted for a different one that eludes me now.

However, if I lived in the US, I would undoubtedly vote for a third party, even though to my understanding it's impossible for a third party to win regardless with how the systems are set up. To even get a third party potential for President in the US, don't they have to garner 5% of the national vote in an election year, then four years later they can be an actual potential? I didn't read much into it, because...confusing *laughs*

Regardless, I still would. If I didn't have that option, I'd vote Hillary, lesser of two evils. That's my two cents :D

The 5% is to be eligible for funding.  Random quote:

Quote
In terms of financing, 5 percent will radically change the Libertarian candidateís hand in the next election. Indeed 5 percent is the milestone set by the Federal Election Commission to be eligible for the Presidential Election Campaign Fundís grant. The amount of public funding available to the minor party candidate is based on the the ratio of the partyís popular vote in the preceding presidential election to the average popular vote of the two major party candidates in that election.

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Re: [US 3rd Party Supporters] Sell me on the third party vote
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2016, 07:06:11 PM »
So if enough people voted for a third party, they could become President regardless?

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Re: [US 3rd Party Supporters] Sell me on the third party vote
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2016, 07:50:04 PM »
If they got the 270 electoral votes then yes.

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Re: [US 3rd Party Supporters] Sell me on the third party vote
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2016, 08:31:26 PM »
If they got the 270 electoral votes then yes.

That's my learning for the day then :D

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Re: [US 3rd Party Supporters] Sell me on the third party vote
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2016, 07:48:13 PM »
Also, we'd need viable third party candidates

At this point the two likely third party candidates are Jill Stein who runs on an anti GMo/Anti vax anti anything remotely sciency platform, and Gary Johnson who so far seems to need cue cards to remember his own name.

I've been staying out of this thread for a number of reasons, but can you show me where in this platform there is anything 'anti-vax'?

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Re: [US 3rd Party Supporters] Sell me on the third party vote
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2016, 09:02:34 PM »
I've been staying out of this thread for a number of reasons, but can you show me where in this platform there is anything 'anti-vax'?

*referee's whistle blows*

10 Yard penalty, Oniya, for attempting to inject facts into a political discussion.

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Re: [US 3rd Party Supporters] Sell me on the third party vote
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2016, 09:06:32 PM »
*referee's whistle blows*

10 Yard penalty, Oniya, for attempting to inject facts into a political discussion.

Will I get 20 for a Snopes debunk;D  Or is that a red flag?

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Re: [US 3rd Party Supporters] Sell me on the third party vote
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2016, 10:45:03 PM »
Will I get 20 for a Snopes debunk;D  Or is that a red flag?

Being Australian, I am not sure of the US Football penalty system. Our Rugby League game as a yard/metre penalty system, with the occasional send off. I think further injection of facts into the political discussion might get you sin binned for ten minutes though.

Offline Cassandra LeMay

Re: [US 3rd Party Supporters] Sell me on the third party vote
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2016, 01:17:49 AM »
I've been staying out of this thread for a number of reasons, but can you show me where in this platform there is anything 'anti-vax'?
She may not be "anti-vax", but she has made some statements that could be seen as politicizing the topic more than it should: http://theslot.jezebel.com/jill-stein-thinks-there-are-real-questions-about-vaccin-1784533166

Offline Tamhansen

Re: [US 3rd Party Supporters] Sell me on the third party vote
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2016, 10:15:45 AM »
Sorry for taking so long to respond Oniya, haven't been around enough. The reason I called her platform anti vax was statements like these:

"As a medical doctor, there was a time where I looked very closely at those issues, and not all those issues were completely resolved," Stein said. "There were concerns among physicians about what the vaccination schedule meant, the toxic substances like mercury which used to be rampant in vaccines. There were real questions that needed to be addressed. I think some of them at least have been addressed. I donít know if all of them have been addressed."

Though not directly antivax perse, it is an argument quite often used by antivaxers. As a medical doctor she knows better than saying things like: "the toxic substances like mercury which used to be rampant in vaccines" when this is blatantly not true. Thiomersal is only used in trace amounts, and only in very few vaccines. And this has always been the case.

Though her statements are not directly anti-vax, they are intended to appeal to the antivaxxers who in fairness are a large part of her voter base.

Similar concerns came to me in this: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danthropology/2016/09/jill-stein-calls-for-new-911-investigation-doubling-down-on-conspiracy-nonsense/

Yes the article is biased against her, but the facts of her statement are correct.


Or this: http://www.sciencealert.com/us-presidential-candidate-jill-stein-thinks-wi-fi-is-a-threat-to-children-s-health

And then her insistence that her government can forgive billions upon billions in student debts by quantitive easing, without being able to explain how easing works. She once stated: "All people need to know is that it is a magic trick" Which next to being blatantly false, as it is not a magic trick but a complex and economically risky list of measures, is also weird as she is basically saying: "We are going to forgive student debt, but we're not going to explain how. We'll do a magic trick"

Though Stein and even Johnson are marginally better than the human version of B.P. Richfield, neither make a seriously valid option for the presidency.

Sadly, despite all her flaws, and obvious servitude to corporate interest, that leaves Mrs Rodham-Clinton as the only viable candidate.

Offline SkynetTopic starter

Re: [US 3rd Party Supporters] Sell me on the third party vote
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2016, 03:39:20 PM »
Well, I ended up voting for Hillary. If only because I put a Trump presidency into contrast.

Sorry if this isn't what some folks wanted to hear, but I'd like to thank everyone here for their input and advice! :-)