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Author Topic: Sexual Assault vs Submission  (Read 460 times)

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Offline AzureRainTopic starter

Sexual Assault vs Submission
« on: March 22, 2018, 08:29:41 AM »
Came across this article, which answers a lot of questions i’ve been internalizing. In an era where we are (finally) so vehemently opposed to sexual assault, and accordingly supportive of good sex for BOTH sexes (and all genders), where does submission fall into place?

I hope you’ll all give this a read and let me know what you think!

https://nyti.ms/2GkFTHD

My favorite line is: “the more socially dominant a woman was, the more likely she was to enjoy fantasies of sexual submission.”

Online Oniya

Re: Sexual Assault vs Submission
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2018, 12:25:04 PM »
Submission's key aspects are trust and consent - two things distinctly absent in sexual assault.  Even if a man or woman has fantasies of sexual submission, they can still be assaulted. 

Let's say I have bondage fantasies.  If some random overpowers me and ties me up, that's still assault (regardless of my fantasies, I don't trust this person, and haven't consented).  If my SO overpowers me and ties me up when I don't want to be tied up, that's still assault (Assuming I trust my SO, I still haven't consented).  If my SO and I arrange a safe word, and decide that we're going to wrestle for a bit until I am overpowered and then tied up (with a safety release for emergencies!) to act out those fantasies, then that is submission.  There is trust, and there is consent.

Offline Adrasteia

Re: Sexual Assault vs Submission
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2018, 02:48:05 PM »
Hrm. I'm not sure the article really covers much at all. Fine, the conclusion ("we need two empowered individuals liberated and secure enough to explore each other’s impulses, to listen to each other, and ask for what they want") is solid, but I don't feel it really answers the question- the same applies whether you're (consensually) hitting someone until they bleed or just having a vanilla hookup.

In the general sense of female sub/male dom (which is all the article mentions, anyway), I think there's a disconnect between 'the kink community' and 'everyone else'- I think there are a lot of women who would, by all definitions, be subs, but still think of BDSM as something that only scary people in leather do. I'm not saying the kink community is free of abuse, but from my experience, there's a whole lot of emphasis on communication, respecting boundaries, and setting limits. If you don't have access to the resources (or don't think they're aimed at you), you're less likely to think about it as something to incorporate into your own sex life.

I'm also finding it a bit odd how an article on assault and female subs makes absolutely no mention of male doms... There's a few quotes from men, but nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Offline Luciferia

Re: Sexual Assault vs Submission
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2018, 03:02:23 PM »
Submission's key aspects are trust and consent - two things distinctly absent in sexual assault.  Even if a man or woman has fantasies of sexual submission, they can still be assaulted. 

Let's say I have bondage fantasies.  If some random overpowers me and ties me up, that's still assault (regardless of my fantasies, I don't trust this person, and haven't consented).  If my SO overpowers me and ties me up when I don't want to be tied up, that's still assault (Assuming I trust my SO, I still haven't consented).  If my SO and I arrange a safe word, and decide that we're going to wrestle for a bit until I am overpowered and then tied up (with a safety release for emergencies!) to act out those fantasies, then that is submission.  There is trust, and there is consent.

Well said. I was going to say that the key is consent as well. Everyone is free to do all the fun stuff, even if it seems strange to others, so long as everyone involved and impacted by it consents!

Offline ElectronicVice

Re: Sexual Assault vs Submission
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2018, 07:30:32 PM »
It feels like this article talks about the one big thing that I have heard a lot of people talk about in regards to not just #MeToo but also the "enthusiastic consent" standard. Where every part of a sexual encounter needs to be verbally communicated and permission needs to be asked for every step of the way. Which to a lot of people is really just not sexy, including even some of the women in this article. To me it seems like too much importance has been put on specifically verbal consent as if two adults can't send non-verbal signals between themselves all the time. Of course that comes with its own set of problems even if it can lead to more "steamy" encounters.

Though for me what is even more interesting than all that is this group of young socially conscious guys refusing to take the sexual initiative because they don't want to do the wrong thing. Or perhaps because they are afraid of the consequences of being wrong accidentally.

The article doesn't come up with a conclusion as to what to really do about the whole situation but I think like a lot of things moderation fixes it rather nicely. You wouldn't want to have to ask your partner for consent every single step of the way, but saying nothing ever and just doing things probably wouldn't end up being a very satisfying sexual experience for you or your partner. So some communication is needed. I think its really just something that couples need to work out amongst themselves ultimately and you can't worry about whether or not what you do in the bedroom lines up with your politics. 

Offline Tsenta

Re: Sexual Assault vs Submission
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2018, 04:11:18 AM »
As Oniya so well stated, a lot of D/s or M/s comes from a base line of a lot of communication and trust, in both parties.  Just as the sub trusts the Dom not to push too many boundaries, respect their decisions, etc.  The Dom also puts trust into the sub in the means of speaking up and standing up for oneself when one is needed.    After all, nobody is a mind reader and if something is done or said that pushes a hard line it's up to the sub to express this.


D/s is like any other relationship in the aspect it's a two way street, with communication and trust being the solid foundation.   Unfortunately there are those out there who enjoy calling themselves a Dom/Master/Mistress/etc who think that because others are submissive, it gives them a green light to assault, belittle, and all out abuse them because "Hey, they're a sub, they like it."   Luckily in communities those types are usually tossed out pretty quickly, but they can do a LOT of damage to new and emerging subs who may or may not know better.

All in all, D/s is FAR from sexual assault but I can see where people may...assume it.

Offline RedRose

Re: Sexual Assault vs Submission
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2018, 12:53:16 PM »
I agree with Electronic Vice. People should be able to read non verbal consent. Maybe I'm just old  :P but if a guy won't take an initiative without asking "can I..." or at all, I'm going to be out very fast.

Offline CriminalMindsFan

Re: Sexual Assault vs Submission
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2018, 07:26:42 PM »
I agree with Electronic Vice. People should be able to read non verbal consent. Maybe I'm just old  :P but if a guy won't take an initiative without asking "can I..." or at all, I'm going to be out very fast.

I have seen occasional attacks on non verbal consent. Those doing it are like no such thing exist nowadays. Maybe they just aren't meeting the right people when engaging in sex?

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Sexual Assault vs Submission
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2018, 09:24:04 PM »
I agree with Electronic Vice. People should be able to read non verbal consent. Maybe I'm just old  :P but if a guy won't take an initiative without asking "can I..." or at all, I'm going to be out very fast.
Well, the way it's going verbal seems to be the only agreed upon way to have proper consent. Because even a woman saying no at any point doesn't seem to be acceptable. (That is she may say later that she was scared or intimidated and didn't feel safe saying no. Which is possible in some situations, but again it just further muddies the waters.)
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 09:25:11 PM by Inkidu »