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Author Topic: "The Cult of the Occupation" or The International Media Coverage of Israel  (Read 1698 times)

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Offline Zakharra

My final thought.

What we have in Palestine/Israel are two forces (not necessarily the people) who each believe the other is out to destroy them. The Israeli's defend their tactics by saying it is necessary for their security and the Palestinians are intent on killing them and driving them into the sea. This includes all methods of policing, land theft, etc, etc.

The Palestinians see the Israeli's as colonial occupiers who are gradually taking all their resources and leaving them with nothing in hopes they will disappear or be exiled to other Arab nations, leaving Israel to the Jewish people. The right to resist occupation by any means is lawful and necessary.

The Israeli's have the power, the Palestinians have nothing. Therefore, Israel has no incentive to give up anything, the status quo is fine.

edit:

To the point of Israel being a democracy. It is Israel who constantly points to their being the "only democracy in the Middle East" as if that absolves them of any consequence for the damage they do. By claiming to be the good guys they avoid the repercussions that would occur to a dictator or other bad actors who did the same. It is just the way the world seems to work. Maybe I am wrong, but that is the way I see it.

Sure they could have destroyed Gaza, but what would that have bought them. They still, for the third time bombed the hell out of Gaza. Currently, there is supposed to be a cease fire of sorts, but Israel still fires on fishing boats, still fires across the border at demonstrators, still drives bulldozers and equipment to destroy farmland and crops, still imposes their will on the people of Gaza through what is basically a quarantine of goods and shipping. They put the Gazan's on a diet so they will not thrive, but will not starve to death either. Instead of a bullet to the head, it is a slow strangulation.

As each side becomes more entrenched and right wing leaning it all becomes more difficult.

Only when the US and the world put enough pressure on Israel to work for peace will there be a solution. That can be either a two state solution or a one state solution where all have equal rights and citizenry. A boycott is the first step.

Personally, I do not believe a negotiated peace is possible. I think it must be imposed by the rest of the world through sanctions and boycotts. Force both sides to end the struggles.


We will see what elections in Palestine bring. The last time, Hamas won the democratically monitored elections. Of course, the US and Israel immediately did not recognize that fact. Getting rid of Netanyahu would be a good start as well.

 As I see it, in the last 20-30 years, most of the Palestinians problems have been self made. They are the cause of most of their problems because they will not leave Israel alone. Any aid they get, is used to build tunnels and/or buy more weapons/supplies to launch attacks on Israel. They are absurdly paranoid about any religious sites (the Dome of the Rock being a popular one to get outraged about) and seem to go off in shooting/knifing sprees at the drop of a hat.

 Until the Palestinians give up their pointless 'resistance' there will never be a peace either. A true peace requires both sides to want it. At this time (and for the last 60-70 odd years now), the Palestinians haven't wanted any peace that leaves Israel intact. Certainly Hamas and Hezbollah don't want Israel to survive. Until that issue is dropped by the Palestinians and Hamas, Hezbollah, any peace  initiative and agreement is going to go nowhere.

It bears pointing out that in the middle to late 90s, the Palestinians got about 90% of what they wanted. 90%...  Israel was willing to give them that much of their demands. And Yassar Arafat, the head of the PLO walked away from negotiation table to start another mini war against Israel.  Until this insane stupidity of eternal resistance and 'No negotiations until we get 100% of our demands!' by the Palestinians is dealt with one way or another, there is only one way peace will ever come between Israel and the Palestinians; when one side has been killed down to almost the last man, woman and child.

 If the Palestinians were on the border of any other First world nations, they would have been stomped into the ground long ago. Israel, despite any criticisms they get, have been very restrained in their responses to Palestinian provocation. Especially as a democracy.

Offline elone

As I see it, in the last 20-30 years, most of the Palestinians problems have been self made. They are the cause of most of their problems because they will not leave Israel alone. Any aid they get, is used to build tunnels and/or buy more weapons/supplies to launch attacks on Israel. They are absurdly paranoid about any religious sites (the Dome of the Rock being a popular one to get outraged about) and seem to go off in shooting/knifing sprees at the drop of a hat.

 Until the Palestinians give up their pointless 'resistance' there will never be a peace either. A true peace requires both sides to want it. At this time (and for the last 60-70 odd years now), the Palestinians haven't wanted any peace that leaves Israel intact. Certainly Hamas and Hezbollah don't want Israel to survive. Until that issue is dropped by the Palestinians and Hamas, Hezbollah, any peace  initiative and agreement is going to go nowhere.

It bears pointing out that in the middle to late 90s, the Palestinians got about 90% of what they wanted. 90%...  Israel was willing to give them that much of their demands. And Yassar Arafat, the head of the PLO walked away from negotiation table to start another mini war against Israel.  Until this insane stupidity of eternal resistance and 'No negotiations until we get 100% of our demands!' by the Palestinians is dealt with one way or another, there is only one way peace will ever come between Israel and the Palestinians; when one side has been killed down to almost the last man, woman and child.

 If the Palestinians were on the border of any other First world nations, they would have been stomped into the ground long ago. Israel, despite any criticisms they get, have been very restrained in their responses to Palestinian provocation. Especially as a democracy.

The Palestinians did not drive over 700,000 people from their homes in 1948, Israel did. The Palestinians did not start the 1967 war, Israel did. The Palestinians did not settle hundreds of thousands of people in occupied land in defiance of the United Nations and Geneva conventions, Israel did. The Palestinians have not refused people the right to come home to their lands, the Israeli's did. The Palestinians did not attack the USS Liberty, Israel did. The Palestinians did not invade Lebanon killing tens of thousands, Israel did. The Palestinians did not plant bombs and then blame it on Egyptians, Israel did. The Palestinians do not shoot demonstrators, demolish homes, invade mosques, assassinate civilians, steal land and water, blast homes with skunk water, support settler's who break laws and murder, and destroy entire neighborhoods, Israel does. Yes, the Palestinians have brought this all on themselves. Please tell me how?? Through legal resistance?

The Palestinians only want the West Bank, Gaza, parts of East Jerusalem, and the right for some refugees to be able to return to their homes. It is basically what they had before 1967. Israel refuses to give the land back. They actually should demand a return to 1948, the legal borders of the state of Israel as set by the UN. The  Arab League has offered peace with Israel if Israel will just walk back to the 1967 lines. Israel, ever intent on expansion will have none of it. Does a nation who wants peace settle its people all over another country in religious discriminatory settlements?

Offering 90% was not all of the plan. That is a simplistic view. Israel also wanted to control much of East Jerusalem, roadways, air space, borders, water, parts of Al-Aqsa and more. Also, no return of refugees. There was much left unsaid in the negotiations and Arafat could not trust Israel to abide by their word, seeing as how they have never done so, not even the UN plan that gave them statehood.

Hamas and Hezbollah do not represent the Palestinians, but even Hamas has shown willingness to make some concessions. Palestinians do not want to destroy Israel, they just want them to take their foot off their necks. How is it that Jews and Palestinians lived in relative harmony for a thousand years before the creations of the State of Israel?

Resistance is the right of all Palestinians since Israel has occupied their territory. Did the French have the right to resist Nazi's in WWII? Of course they did. Do the Palestinians have the right to resist the Israeli occupation of their lands. Of course they do.

Palestinians would be much better off if they were on the border of a first world nation. After WWII Germany was rebuilt, Japan was rebuilt, colonial enterprises  have for the most part been long gone.  Israel still holds on to land that they took through conquest in recent times. A first world country would have made peace with Palestinians long ago. It is Israeli intransigence that has kept the pot boiling all these years.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 03:40:23 PM by elone »

Offline RoenTopic starter

Elone, please stick to the facts, Israel did NOT start the war of '67, you can't just change history to suit your ideology.

Offline RoenTopic starter

The Palestinians did not drive over 700,000 people from their homes in 1948, Israel did. The Palestinians did not start the 1967 war, Israel did.
Now that's not your first lie in this thread, but it is the boldest one. Israel did not instigate the Six Days War, it stared when Egypt mobilized its units in utter defiance of the cease fire that took place at the time, which any other country would consider an act of war. Israel started a preemptive attack, sure, because all three countries- Egypt, Syria and Jordan were readying their air forces, which outnumbered the Israeli airforce and would have lead to a devastating blow if they were allowed to attack first. So you'd say that Israel should have just waited for an entire army of planes to destroy it? Suddenly being strategically savvy is a war crime? 

Quote
The Palestinians did not settle hundreds of thousands of people in occupied land in defiance of the United Nations and Geneva conventions, Israel did.
You seem to be turning a particularly selective blind eye to the strategical locations of said settlements, almost all of them were settled in ventages where they served as Israel's first line of defense against a population that proved to have every intent to murder civilians with every weapon and chance they get. It's in their Charter:

"Article 10:

Commando action constitutes the nucleus of the Palestinian popular liberation war. This requires its escalation, comprehensiveness, and the mobilization of all the Palestinian popular and educational efforts and their organization and involvement in the armed Palestinian revolution. It also requires the achieving of unity for the national (watani) struggle among the different groupings of the Palestinian people, and between the Palestinian people and the Arab masses, so as to secure the continuation of the revolution, its escalation, and victory."

Commando actions, only the commando warriors are civilians, not soldiers, if I'm not mistaken, there's a word for that, it's terror. Although you might call it "Legal Resistance"


Quote
The Palestinians have not refused people the right to come home to their lands, the Israeli's did.

That's weird, after 48 almost a million Jews were banished or chased out of the various Arab countries, yet not one of them ever considered themselves refugees or even tried to pass that title to their children, like the Palestinians stubbornly do, and are encouraged to do in the same PLO charter:

"Article 4:
The Palestinian identity is a genuine, essential, and inherent characteristic; it is transmitted from parents to children. The Zionist occupation and the dispersal of the Palestinian Arab people, through the disasters which befell them, do not make them lose their Palestinian identity and their membership in the Palestinian community, nor do they negate them.
Article 5:
The Palestinians are those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or have stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father - whether inside Palestine or outside it - is also a Palestinian."

So you mean to say that every child a Palestinian has, every grandson, every cousin and every next generation family member is automatically a Palestinian with the birthright to inherit the land? That's pretty convenient, not to mention exclusive, as NO OTHER NATIONALITY IN THE WORLD makes such claims.

Quote
The Palestinians do not shoot demonstrators,
Israel has never done that, that's a blatant lie.

Quote
demolish homes,
Terror needs to have consequences, since the Hamas is recruiting civilians and refuses to recognize them as soldiers, it's forcing Israel to act against the terrorists themselves. How else would you deter other civilians from joining the organization and going out there to murder innocent men, women and children?

Quote
invade mosques,
They do invade mosques, but not only that, they invade synagogues, schools and kibbutzes.

Quote
assassinate civilians
Of course they don't assassinate, they slaughter, they jump on women and children in the streets and butcher them with knives, while the innocent bystanders, the palestinian shop keepers and street goers, stand at the sidelines and laugh, it has been documented, it has been proved, happened a year ago.

Quote
Support settler's who break laws and murder, and destroy entire neighborhoods, Israel does.
Settlers that have been prosecuted and punished, while rocks, Molotov and firework throwers on the other side were treated as heroes. But please, don't let the facts stand in your way.

Quote
Yes, the Palestinians have brought this all on themselves. Please tell me how?? Through legal resistance?
I'll tell you how, by encouraging terror, by voting for a terrorist organization, by treating dead terrorists as Shahids (saints), by glorifying armed (legal? seriously?) resistance.

Let's look back to the PLO charter for reference:

"Article 9:
Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. This it is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase. The Palestinian Arab people assert their absolute determination and firm resolution to continue their armed struggle and to work for an armed popular revolution for the liberation of their country and their return to it . They also assert their right to normal life in Palestine and to exercise their right to self-determination and sovereignty over it."


Quote
The Palestinians only want the West Bank, Gaza, parts of East Jerusalem, and the right for some refugees to be able to return to their homes. It is basically what they had before 1967. Israel refuses to give the land back. They actually should demand a return to 1948, the legal borders of the state of Israel as set by the UN.

You seem to be, yet again, harshly misinformed, or just selectively forgetful.

Here is what they actually demand, yet again, from the PLO charter:

"Article 2:
Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.
Article 20:
The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine, and everything that has been based upon them, are deemed null and void. Claims of historical or religious ties of Jews with Palestine are incompatible with the facts of history and the true conception of what constitutes statehood. Judaism, being a religion, is not an independent nationality. Nor do Jews constitute a single nation with an identity of its own; they are citizens of the states to which they belong.
Article 21:
The Arab Palestinian people, expressing themselves by the armed Palestinian revolution, reject all solutions which are substitutes for the total liberation of Palestine and reject all proposals aiming at the liquidation of the Palestinian problem, or its internationalization."

Not only do they demand to return to the pre-48 borders, they completely deny any sort of a co-existence with a jewish country and refuse to acknowledge not only the right of the jewish people to have a land in Israel, but also completely dismiss the Jewish people's right to consider themselves a nationality, rather as a religion of drifters that are to be scattered around the globe and assimilate into other countries as their citizens.

Quote
Hamas and Hezbollah do not represent the Palestinians,
They voted for Hamas, in that so-called "democratic" elections, so suddenly they don't represent them? Why do you deny the Palestinians from their right to be represented by their own elected leadership?

Quote
How is it that Jews and Palestinians lived in relative harmony for a thousand years before the creations of the State of Israel?
Sure, relative harmony, unless you consider dozens of bloody massacres during the British mandate, for lands that were not conquered by the Jews, but legally and peacefully bought from their Arabian landlords. The British Mandate was before the creation of the state of Israel, unless I'm mistaken. (Sources at the bottom about the Palestinian aggressions)

Quote
Resistance is the right of all Palestinians since Israel has occupied their territory. Did the French have the right to resist Nazi's in WWII? Of course they did. Do the Palestinians have the right to resist the Israeli occupation of their lands. Of course they do.
Here we go, finally comparing Israel to Nazi Germany, I was wondering when that was going to happen. I'm not even going to grace that with a response, just wanted to make a note.
Well, anyway, to answer your question: yes, everyone is entitled to resistance, but NO, not when it comes to murdering innocent civilians- that is men, women and children by blowing up buses, cafe's, night clubs, invading kibbutzes and settlements and slitting people's throats in the middle of the night, throwing rocks at cars and shooting at them with automatic weapons. If that's your idea of legal resistance, I don't know what to tell you. Again, all of those acts of violence are encouraged by the PLO charter.

Palestinians would be much better off if they were on the border of a first world nation. After WWII Germany was rebuilt, Japan was rebuilt, colonial enterprises  have for the most part been long gone.  Israel still holds on to land that they took through conquest in recent times. A first world country would have made peace with Palestinians long ago. It is Israeli intransigence that has kept the pot boiling all these years.
I don't know any country that would tolerate such constant and unrelenting attacks against its citizens and cities- rockets, terror attacks, the brainwashing on young children to go out there and stab civilians on the street. Not USA, not the UK and definitely not Germany would EVER put up with that, and if you think otherwise, please consider what happened every single time ANY US citizen or even soldier were taken by any foreign organization or nation. Compared to methods employed there (like raising a whole battalion of assault helicopters), Israel has been restrained with its reactions.

In conclusion, I feel like you've been deeply and severely misinformed, either by reading the wrong website or just nitpicking your sources, you seem to pick the most biased ones and then present them in a semi-balanced tone, which is a misleading technique in an almost criminal degree.

Not only that, I feel like you seem to deny the Palestinian people of their clearly stated goals and antics, sometimes in direct contrast to what they have been publicly announcing for decades. You say you have a balanced view point of the whole conflict, but then you completely deny any merits that the Israeli people have to their side while denying ALL responsibility that the Palestinian people has for their mistakes and, yes, crimes. Terror is a crime, Elone, no matter how neatly you'd like to dress it as "legitimate resistance".
It seems to me that you'd like to treat the Palestinian as kids, as if they're not responsible for electing a terrorist organization, they're not responsible for raising their children to idolize terrorists, as if they're not responsible for actions that are firmly encouraged by their national charter, the sort of "Forgive them, father, they know not what they are doing."

You are treating them like they aren't entitled to their own political views (just because these don't suit your views), their own mentality (just because that doesn't fit the whole victimization theory) and the responsibility for their mistakes and faults, from which you'd like to absolve them by acting like they are children that are completely susceptible to outside influence, without the basic capability for critical thinking and moral compass.

We have a term for that sort of mentality, it's called racism.
 
To me it seems like you've made up your mind a long time ago, and ever since you've only accepted facts, rumors and lies that support your predetermined opinions. That's too bad, I'd like to extand you the same offer again; come to Israel, or Palestine, or whatever you want to call it. See the land, talk to the people, all of the people, put some faces on the figures and statistics and judge for yourself.

Videos and news reports can be so easily manipulated, man, you need to come here and see how it is with your own eyes. I'll gladly show you around (The Israeli side, as it would be really dangerous for me to go on the Palestinian side. Literally a death sentence).


Sources:
The PLO Charter (Yale Legal)
Examples for Pre-Israel Arab-Jewish conflicts:1929,1936-1939
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 06:27:51 PM by Roen »

Offline elone

Elone, please stick to the facts, Israel did NOT start the war of '67, you can't just change history to suit your ideology.

I don't know what they teach you in Israel.  Here is the truth.

"It is often claimed that Israel’s attack on Egypt that began the June 1967 “Six Day War” was a “preemptive” one. Implicit in that description is the notion that Israel was under imminent threat of an attack from Egypt. Yet this historical interpretation of the war is not sustained by the documentary record.

Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin acknowledged in a speech in 1982 that its war on Egypt in 1956 was a war of “choice” and that, “In June 1967 we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.”

The current Israeli Ambassador to the U.S., Michael B. Oren, acknowledged in his book “Six Days of War“, widely regarded as the definitive account of the war, that “By all reports Israel received from the Americans, and according to its own intelligence, Nasser had no interest in bloodshed”.

The President of Egypt, then known as the United Arab Republic (UAR), Gamal Abdel Nasser, later conveyed to U.S. President Lyndon Johnson that his troop buildup in the Sinai Peninsula prior to the war had been to defend against a feared Israeli attack."

Source: http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2010/07/04/israels-attack-on-egypt-in-june-67-was-not-preemptive/
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 11:54:42 PM by elone »

Offline elone

Now that's not your first lie in this thread, but it is the boldest one. Israel did not instigate the Six Days War, it stared when Egypt mobilized its units in utter defiance of the cease fire that took place at the time, which any other country would consider an act of war. Israel started a preemptive attack, sure, because all three countries- Egypt, Syria and Jordan were readying their air forces, which outnumbered the Israeli airforce and would have lead to a devastating blow if they were allowed to attack first. So you'd say that Israel should have just waited for an entire army of planes to destroy it? Suddenly being strategically savvy is a war crime? 
You seem to be turning a particularly selective blind eye to the strategical locations of said settlements, almost all of them were settled in ventages where they served as Israel's first line of defense against a population that proved to have every intent to murder civilians with every weapon and chance they get. It's in their Charter:

"Article 10:

Commando action constitutes the nucleus of the Palestinian popular liberation war. This requires its escalation, comprehensiveness, and the mobilization of all the Palestinian popular and educational efforts and their organization and involvement in the armed Palestinian revolution. It also requires the achieving of unity for the national (watani) struggle among the different groupings of the Palestinian people, and between the Palestinian people and the Arab masses, so as to secure the continuation of the revolution, its escalation, and victory."

Commando actions, only the commando warriors are civilians, not soldiers, if I'm not mistaken, there's a word for that, it's terror. Although you might call it "Legal Resistance"

 
That's weird, after 48 almost a million Jews were banished or chased out of the various Arab countries, yet not one of them ever considered themselves refugees or even tried to pass that title to their children, like the Palestinians stubbornly do, and are encouraged to do in the same PLO charter:

"Article 4:
The Palestinian identity is a genuine, essential, and inherent characteristic; it is transmitted from parents to children. The Zionist occupation and the dispersal of the Palestinian Arab people, through the disasters which befell them, do not make them lose their Palestinian identity and their membership in the Palestinian community, nor do they negate them.
Article 5:
The Palestinians are those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or have stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father - whether inside Palestine or outside it - is also a Palestinian."

So you mean to say that every child a Palestinian has, every grandson, every cousin and every next generation family member is automatically a Palestinian with the birthright to inherit the land? That's pretty convenient, not to mention exclusive, as NO OTHER NATIONALITY IN THE WORLD makes such claims.
Israel has never done that, that's a blatant lie.
Terror needs to have consequences, since the Hamas is recruiting civilians and refuses to recognize them as soldiers, it's forcing Israel to act against the terrorists themselves. How else would you deter other civilians from joining the organization and going out there to murder innocent men, women and children?
They do invade mosques, but not only that, they invade synagogues, schools and kibbutzes.
Of course they don't assassinate, they slaughter, they jump on women and children in the streets and butcher them with knives, while the innocent bystanders, the palestinian shop keepers and street goers, stand at the sidelines and laugh, it has been documented, it has been proved, happened a year ago.
Settlers that have been prosecuted and punished, while rocks, Molotov and firework throwers on the other side were treated as heroes. But please, don't let the facts stand in your way.
I'll tell you how, by encouraging terror, by voting for a terrorist organization, by treating dead terrorists as Shahids (saints), by glorifying armed (legal? seriously?) resistance.

Let's look back to the PLO charter for reference:

"Article 9:
Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. This it is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase. The Palestinian Arab people assert their absolute determination and firm resolution to continue their armed struggle and to work for an armed popular revolution for the liberation of their country and their return to it . They also assert their right to normal life in Palestine and to exercise their right to self-determination and sovereignty over it."

 
You seem to be, yet again, harshly misinformed, or just selectively forgetful.

Here is what they actually demand, yet again, from the PLO charter:

"Article 2:
Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.
Article 20:
The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine, and everything that has been based upon them, are deemed null and void. Claims of historical or religious ties of Jews with Palestine are incompatible with the facts of history and the true conception of what constitutes statehood. Judaism, being a religion, is not an independent nationality. Nor do Jews constitute a single nation with an identity of its own; they are citizens of the states to which they belong.
Article 21:
The Arab Palestinian people, expressing themselves by the armed Palestinian revolution, reject all solutions which are substitutes for the total liberation of Palestine and reject all proposals aiming at the liquidation of the Palestinian problem, or its internationalization."

Not only do they demand to return to the pre-48 borders, they completely deny any sort of a co-existence with a jewish country and refuse to acknowledge not only the right of the jewish people to have a land in Israel, but also completely dismiss the Jewish people's right to consider themselves a nationality, rather as a religion of drifters that are to be scattered around the globe and assimilate into other countries as their citizens.
They voted for Hamas, in that so-called "democratic" elections, so suddenly they don't represent them? Why do you deny the Palestinians from their right to be represented by their own elected leadership?
Sure, relative harmony, unless you consider dozens of bloody massacres during the British mandate, for lands that were not conquered by the Jews, but legally and peacefully bought from their Arabian landlords. The British Mandate was before the creation of the state of Israel, unless I'm mistaken. (Sources at the bottom about the Palestinian aggressions)
Here we go, finally comparing Israel to Nazi Germany, I was wondering when that was going to happen. I'm not even going to grace that with a response, just wanted to make a note.
Well, anyway, to answer your question: yes, everyone is entitled to resistance, but NO, not when it comes to murdering innocent civilians- that is men, women and children by blowing up buses, cafe's, night clubs, invading kibbutzes and settlements and slitting people's throats in the middle of the night, throwing rocks at cars and shooting at them with automatic weapons. If that's your idea of legal resistance, I don't know what to tell you. Again, all of those acts of violence are encouraged by the PLO charter.
I don't know any country that would tolerate such constant and unrelenting attacks against its citizens and cities- rockets, terror attacks, the brainwashing on young children to go out there and stab civilians on the street. Not USA, not the UK and definitely not Germany would EVER put up with that, and if you think otherwise, please consider what happened every single time ANY US citizen or even soldier were taken by any foreign organization or nation. Compared to methods employed there (like raising a whole battalion of assault helicopters), Israel has been restrained with its reactions.

In conclusion, I feel like you've been deeply and severely misinformed, either by reading the wrong website or just nitpicking your sources, you seem to pick the most biased ones and then present them in a semi-balanced tone, which is a misleading technique in an almost criminal degree.

Not only that, I feel like you seem to deny the Palestinian people of their clearly stated goals and antics, sometimes in direct contrast to what they have been publicly announcing for decades. You say you have a balanced view point of the whole conflict, but then you completely deny any merits that the Israeli people have to their side while denying ALL responsibility that the Palestinian people has for their mistakes and, yes, crimes. Terror is a crime, Elone, no matter how neatly you'd like to dress it as "legitimate resistance".
It seems to me that you'd like to treat the Palestinian as kids, as if they're not responsible for electing a terrorist organization, they're not responsible for raising their children to idolize terrorists, as if they're not responsible for actions that are firmly encouraged by their national charter, the sort of "Forgive them, father, they know not what they are doing."

You are treating them like they aren't entitled to their own political views (just because these don't suit your views), their own mentality (just because that doesn't fit the whole victimization theory) and the responsibility for their mistakes and faults, from which you'd like to absolve them by acting like they are children that are completely susceptible to outside influence, without the basic capability for critical thinking and moral compass.

We have a term for that sort of mentality, it's called racism.
 
To me it seems like you've made up your mind a long time ago, and ever since you've only accepted facts, rumors and lies that support your predetermined opinions. That's too bad, I'd like to extand you the same offer again; come to Israel, or Palestine, or whatever you want to call it. See the land, talk to the people, all of the people, put some faces on the figures and statistics and judge for yourself.

Videos and news reports can be so easily manipulated, man, you need to come here and see how it is with your own eyes. I'll gladly show you around (The Israeli side, as it would be really dangerous for me to go on the Palestinian side. Literally a death sentence).


Sources:
The PLO Charter (Yale Legal)
Examples for Pre-Israel Arab-Jewish conflicts:1929,1936-1939

I keep losing my posts for some reason. Perhaps I am too tired.

I really do not like being called a liar and a racist. Those types of attacks are usually used by those that have nothing to say. It is a good way to get this thread shut down by moderators.

There are so many untruths and misconception here that I hardly know where to start. It is late, another day.

One thing, you claim Israel never shoots protestors. I suggest you do a google search on that one. Start with Bilin and go onto the two young men killed in the Ofer prison protest just for starters. Watch some videos, they are not manipulated as you claim.

"Two Palestinians were shot dead by Border Police at a Nakba protest outside the Ofer Military Prison near Ramallah." In cold blood.

Shooting protestors, Israel calls them rioters, is official policy, shoot the legs.

Quote
Videos and news reports can be so easily manipulated, man, you need to come here and see how it is with your own eyes. I'll gladly show you around (The Israeli side, as it would be really dangerous for me to go on the Palestinian side. Literally a death sentence).

By the way, if I were to try to go to Israel, I would be interrogated and sent home from Ben-Gurion Airport for my pro Palestinian stand. No Thanks. They do that you know, or maybe you didn't. Why could you not go to the Palestinian side, all the settlers are there. Israeli's go there with no problem, many join the protests.  Are you a wanted criminal there or something? It is only the gov't of Israel who puts up warning signs to keep people form interacting.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2016, 12:18:35 AM by elone »

Offline RoenTopic starter

By the way, if I were to try to go to Israel, I would be interrogated and sent home from Ben-Gurion Airport for my pro Palestinian stand. No Thanks. They do that you know, or maybe you didn't. Why could you not go to the Palestinian side, all the settlers are there. Israeli's go there with no problem, many join the protests.  Are you a wanted criminal there or something? It is only the gov't of Israel who puts up warning signs to keep people form interacting.
I'll deal with the rest of what you said when I get some time on my hands, but for now I'll deal with this one. No one checks your political stance when you enter Israel, there are many people that come and go here every day, from all persuasions and organizations, left and right. So unless you are wanted for any crimes at all, not just Israel, or unless you're standing on a boat loaded with weapons and ammunition headed to Gaza, no one is going to stop or interrogate you.

Also, I don't need my government to warn me about traveling to the Palestinian side, all I need to do is take a look of what was done to Israelis and Jews that ended up there and got lynched on the streets. Thanks, but no thanks.

Online Blythe

A general reminder: Let's remember to keep things civil and step back from the keyboard when frustrated on debate topics like this. Topics like this are often hard to talk about and can bring out tempers quickly. It's good to keep that in mind when posting.

Time for a small break. This thread will be locked for about 24 hours.

Online Blythe

All righty, going to unlock this. Discussion can resume, but please keep the above post about civility and temper in mind. Thank you.

Offline Oniya

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Civility includes remembering that other members are people.  If you can't make your point without attacking another member - don't post.

Offline RoenTopic starter

Thank you for keeping this discussion clean, Oniya. Tempers should be kept at a check, I say that realizing that mine might have slipped here and there. It's only natural, of course, when one feels like their country's very right to defend itself is being delegitimized and falsely framed as murder and war crimes, it can cause an outrage.

I, and the rest of the participents in this debate, will do our best to keep our tones more appropriate from here on out, to make sure none of our posts force you to using that delete button. I'm sure you didn't enjoy using it and I apologize that you had to be put in that position.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 11:16:53 AM by Roen »

Offline dror

Elone - did you read the article you brought before you posted it? It proves Roen's point.
It starts by saying that Nasser said AFTER THE FACT that it was not his intention to attack Israel. He just broke a ceasefire and got his ass handed to him, of course he'll never say it was his intention.
Let me ask this - if there is a war, and the sides agree on terms of a ceasefire, then one side breaks those terms, what are the consequences? Last I checked, if a ceasefire is broken, the war resumes. Hence, Nasser started the war by breaking the ceasefire. He later complained that he lost, as most losers do.
Take a look at what Nasser said just before war broke out, literally inviting Israel to a war, and I'm quoting: "If general Rabin wants war, Ahalan Wasahalan" (Ahalan Wasahalan in Arabic is basically translated as "by all means").

So that article says that Nasser broke the ceasefire and started a war, then goes on to complain that Israel didn't wait around for that to happen.

Let's just assume for the sake of argument that we accept your premise (I don't, but for the sake of argument): in 1973 Israel did EXACTLY what you say it should have done. It got warning signs, it saw force movements, but it assumed there would be no war. And then it was attacked, unprepared, in the most holy day for the Jewish people... That alone completely obliterates your opinion about what Israel "should" have done (or shouldn't have done, I guess). We have two wars within 6 years of one another, one with Israel doing what it did, one with Israel doing what you claim it should have done. Tell me, from Israel's perspective, which one was the better call?

And to another subject - I have to agree with Roen. The Palestinians' own elected officials (both in Hamas AND the PLO) clearly state that they want a FULL right of return, they want a Palestinian state ALL over Israel and they do not accept the UN's partition plan. Roen brought quotes from their OWN CHARTERS. So we should accept your word when you say "No, they don't REALLY want the whole place, they just want the West Bank and Gaze."
Have you ever heard Abbas say he is willing for a "two states for two people" solution? No, he will never say "two people," only "two states" and has repeatedly claimed he will not recognize Israel as a Jewish state (he doesn't have a problem with nation states in general, as he recognizes others and wants one for himself, he just doesn't want one for Jews in Israel). He even went so far as to state that Palestine will be "free of Jews" (talking about the future Palestinian state). So, it's ok for Palestinians to live in Israel, but Jews can't live in Palestine. I'm not even going to start with Hamas, which doesn't even say "two states."
So I would honestly like to know what you base your claim that the Palestinians just want Gaza and the West Bank on? Not only is it factually wrong, but it basically takes away the Palestinians' rights! Palestinians can't be trusted to mean what they say, they are like children. They have no responsibility over their actions and their fate, everything is done TO them.
That is HIGHLY discriminatory towards Palestinians.

I often hear these "Israel is too successful" arguments. "The rockets don't cause any damage, so you shouldn't bomb terrorists over them." The basic argument is Israel is doing too well, so it should stop. It won too many wars, defeated too many Arab armies, stops too many of its civilians from being killed. Israel fights terrorism better than any other country IN THE WORLD, and with much less civilian casualties. Israel is too successful countering Hamas rockets shot over Israel, and too accurate hitting militants. That bothers Israeli opposers, and they want Israel to stop, so they criticize its methods.
 

As for demonstrations - yeah, unfortunately Israel is wrong on this one. But the shortest research will show that they don't use live bullets, even when they shoot for the legs, only rubber coated bullets. While still dangerous, it's hardly live ammo, and will take some direct shots and a lot of misfortune to cause any lasting damage. Not that there haven't been casualties, but those bullets are DESIGNED to cause the minimum amount of damage. If Israel REALLY wanted to stop protests, it could have easily shot live rounds into the crowds.

I assume you've seen this map before:

I'd like to know your thoughts on it please.

Also, I'm far from being a fan of Dennis Prager, but I found this video to be on the spot:

« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 11:41:54 AM by dror »

Offline Kythia

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Have you ever heard Abbas say he is willing for a "two states for two people" solution? No, he will never say "two people," only "two states" and has repeatedly claimed he will not recognize Israel as a Jewish state (he doesn't have a problem with nation states in general, as he recognizes others and wants one for himself, he just doesn't want one for Jews in Israel). He even went so far as to state that Palestine will be "free of Jews" (talking about the future Palestinian state). So, it's ok for Palestinians to live in Israel, but Jews can't live in Palestine. I'm not even going to start with Hamas, which doesn't even say "two states."

Without overly sticking up for Abbas - because, yanno, fuck that guy - I do think the PLO's and Hamas' position is a little more nuanced than you're giving it credit for.  Their argument (or, minimally, the argument they publicly espouse) is that "Jew" isn't a national identity in the same way "Palestinian"  (Or "American" or whatever) is and so the idea of a Jewish national state is fundamentally inconsistent.  I'm not certain to what extent I agree with him and I'm hampered by thinking that tying nationality to land is a fundamentally flawed idea, but there is a certain logic to his refusal to recognise the/a Jewish state but willingness to accept a Palestinian one.  You seem to be suggesting there's a hypocrisy there (my apologies if I'm misreading) but if we take the various writings at face value - and I fully agree with your statement about believing what Palestinians themselves say - then I really don't think there is. 

For example:
Quote from: Article 20 of the PLO Charter
The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine , and everything that has been based upon them, are deemed null and void. Claims of historical or religious ties of Jews with Palestine are incompatible with the facts of history and the true conception of what constitutes statehood. Judaism, being a religion, is not an independent nationality. Nor do Jews constitute a single nation with an identity of its own; they are citizens of the states to which they belong.

Offline dror

That's nice, but irrelevant for two reasons:
1. Jews, like everyone else, have a right for self determination. That right has been recognized by the international community, including the UN.
Therefor, it is still hypocritical to call on international law for a Palestinian state but refuse it for recognition.
2. If anything, the Palestinians themselves will have a problem establishing a nationality, as their national identity depends on opposing Israel. Without that, they are no more than a mob of mixed Arab originated people (half their leaders are named for places they were born in, like AlMazry (The Mitzri, Mitzraim = Egypt)).
Under Jordanian and Egyptian rule until 1967, they had no national aspirations, and the Arab states around Israel planned to take the lands and there wouldn't have been any Palestinians under their rule.

Offline elone

Elone - did you read the article you brought before you posted it? It proves Roen's point.
It starts by saying that Nasser said AFTER THE FACT that it was not his intention to attack Israel. He just broke a ceasefire and got his ass handed to him, of course he'll never say it was his intention.

So that article says that Nasser broke the ceasefire and started a war, then goes on to complain that Israel didn't wait around for that to happen.

I have read the article several times and cannot find where it says Nasser broke a ceasefire. Nevertheless, my point was a response to the idea that Egypt started the six-day war. Clearly, it was Israel who started the conflict. Good for Israel, bad for Egypt. The article states Israel attacked. I quoted Begin and Oren as to that effect.

Quote
That alone completely obliterates your opinion about what Israel "should" have done (or shouldn't have done, I guess).

I have not found where I expressed an opinion as to what Israel should have done, maybe I missed that. 

Quote
And to another subject - I have to agree with Roen. The Palestinians' own elected officials (both in Hamas AND the PLO) clearly state that they want a FULL right of return, they want a Palestinian state ALL over Israel and they do not accept the UN's partition plan. Roen brought quotes from their OWN CHARTERS. So we should accept your word when you say "No, they don't REALLY want the whole place, they just want the West Bank and Gaze."
Have you ever heard Abbas say he is willing for a "two states for two people" solution? No, he will never say "two people," only "two states" and has repeatedly claimed he will not recognize Israel as a Jewish state (he doesn't have a problem with nation states in general, as he recognizes others and wants one for himself, he just doesn't want one for Jews in Israel). He even went so far as to state that Palestine will be "free of Jews" (talking about the future Palestinian state). So, it's ok for Palestinians to live in Israel, but Jews can't live in Palestine. I'm not even going to start with Hamas, which doesn't even say "two states."
So I would honestly like to know what you base your claim that the Palestinians just want Gaza and the West Bank on? Not only is it factually wrong, but it basically takes away the Palestinians' rights! Palestinians can't be trusted to mean what they say, they are like children. They have no responsibility over their actions and their fate, everything is done TO them.
That is HIGHLY discriminatory towards Palestinians.

2 states for 2 people seems to imply separate states for Arabs and Jews. Why would Abbas say that, no one wants that. Since there are already over half a million Jews in West Bank and Jerusalem, that solution is not too likely. The idea of recognition of Israel as a Jewish state is fairly recent and just one more case of Netanyahu moving the goalposts. Would Israel accept Palestine as an Islamic state? Hardly. I am the first to say that Abbas is a crap leader who is more interested in his personal wealth than solutions. Maybe he and Bibi will go away and there will be a chance for a peaceful solution.

Quote
I often hear these "Israel is too successful" arguments. "The rockets don't cause any damage, so you shouldn't bomb terrorists over them." The basic argument is Israel is doing too well, so it should stop. It won too many wars, defeated too many Arab armies, stops too many of its civilians from being killed. Israel fights terrorism better than any other country IN THE WORLD, and with much less civilian casualties. Israel is too successful countering Hamas rockets shot over Israel, and too accurate hitting militants. That bothers Israeli opposers, and they want Israel to stop, so they criticize its methods.

I am not sure about the success argument. The argument I hear are that they ore disproportionate in their response. Also that the repress and are pretty brutal in their conquests.  A lot of evil is successful as oppressors. Saddam was successful, Kim of North Korea is successful, that does not make their means to that success morally right.

 
Quote
As for demonstrations - yeah, unfortunately Israel is wrong on this one. But the shortest research will show that they don't use live bullets, even when they shoot for the legs, only rubber coated bullets. While still dangerous, it's hardly live ammo, and will take some direct shots and a lot of misfortune to cause any lasting damage. Not that there haven't been casualties, but those bullets are DESIGNED to cause the minimum amount of damage. If Israel REALLY wanted to stop protests, it could have easily shot live rounds into the crowds.

They indeed use live rounds on demonstrators, rock throwers, and others when they are in no real danger. There are many, many more examples. Hundreds of Palestinians have been shot and killed by the IDF.



this
http://www.dci-palestine.org/israeli_forces_target_children_with_live_ammunition_to_quash_protests


Quote
I assume you've seen this map before:

I'd like to know your thoughts on it please.

Looks like a map. I cannot comment on the first and last panels, but the two middle ones look accurate. The seem to depict the loss of land by the Palestinians over time. So?

Have you seen this map. Where is Palestine??




Offline RoenTopic starter

I have read the article several times and cannot find where it says Nasser broke a ceasefire. Nevertheless, my point was a response to the idea that Egypt started the six-day war. Clearly, it was Israel who started the conflict. Good for Israel, bad for Egypt. The article states Israel attacked. I quoted Begin and Oren as to that effect.
When you mobilize armed forces against the terms of a ceasefire you break the ceasefire, and when you break the ceasefire, you basically declare war, that is a fact. Also, you seem content in defining a preemptive attack as an attack that's necessary to counter an attack that's already in motion or that somehow there should be a confirmation of the intent to invade/attack from the other side. That's not the only meaning on preemptive attack.
Preemptive attack is largely attacking to neutralize a potential threat, to prevent the possibility of an attack, which- considering the tension between Israel and Egypt during those years, and considering the fact that Egypt openly provoked and threatened Israel, both in words and in action, that attack was the exact response they were aiming for. They simply didn't plan on Israel's attack being successful.

Neither Oren's nor Nasser's after-the-fact testimonies negate the fact that it was, in fact, a preemptive attack, and that means that it was Egypt that started the war by breaking the ceasefire agreement. That's simply not something you or our dear criminal friend, Hammond, could debunk with irrelevant quotes or misleading framing of the word "preemptive", semantics cannot change history.

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I have not found where I expressed an opinion as to what Israel should have done, maybe I missed that.
To me that seems a little confusing, you condemn Israel for starting the war, saying that they had no merits to attack, but then you state that you wouldn't say they should have waited? What would be the right action they should have made then, in your opinion? 

Quote
2 states for 2 people seems to imply separate states for Arabs and Jews. Why would Abbas say that, no one wants that. Since there are already over half a million Jews in West Bank and Jerusalem, that solution is not too likely. The idea of recognition of Israel as a Jewish state is fairly recent and just one more case of Netanyahu moving the goalposts.

Fairly recent? I don't know about that, the idea that Israel would be a state for the Jewish people has been around since before 48, it's in the declaration of independence. Now, I am against the idea of a Jewish state, I know I wouldn't want to live in a country that was defined as a Jewish one. I do, however, fully expect to get a recognition from the Palestinians, in any sort of peace arrangement that would ever come to term, that Israel is the rightful homeland of the Jewish people (be it as a mixed-cultural country for all religions or one that resides next to a Palestinian state). 

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Would Israel accept Palestine as an Islamic state?
We have plenty of those around us. As long as it's peaceful Islam and not radical Islam, what's one more?

Quote
I am the first to say that Abbas is a crap leader who is more interested in his personal wealth than solutions. Maybe he and Bibi will go away and there will be a chance for a peaceful solution.
There are days when I like Abbas more than I do Netanyahu. To be honest, all of us on the left (and some of us on the right) hate that man and would like nothing more than to see him rot in a jail cell for what he has done to our country. If you think Abbas is greedy, you have no idea what greed is, Netanyahu just hides it better, behind his provocative stances and the wall of right-wing supporters. Talk about living in a political prison.
 
Quote
I am not sure about the success argument. The argument I hear are that they ore disproportionate in their response. Also that the repress and are pretty brutal in their conquests.  A lot of evil is successful as oppressors. Saddam was successful, Kim of North Korea is successful, that does not make their means to that success morally right.
Disproportionate? Perhaps, depends on the type of enemy you're dealing with. With radical Islam, deterrence is a huge part of the equation.
Evil? Not at all. As much as you'd like to deny it, this is a war going on here, a war against Islamic terror, and it has been going on for decades now. What you see nowadays all across Europe, we've been dealing with that for decades. You call that Evil, we call it protecting our citizens, you say it's unnecessary, we say that when we didn't deem it necessary- we had buses blowing up on a daily basis, night clubs being exploded, shootouts at restaurant and cafes. You seem to think that the fact that these attacks have lessened by now symbolizes the triviality of the danger. It doesn't. It symbolizes the success of our method, our long-haul methods learned and perfected over years of bloodshed and losses.
The moment we stop, the moment we let loose even a little, it will start all over again.

One would say- "That's an easy excuse. You don't know unless you try. Peace takes faith and patience."
I ask, even if it was true (it isn't, but let's say it is), even if it was true- what's the price you'd be willing to pay until that peace kicks in? How many dead men? How many dead women? How many children would you be willing to sacrifice to test that theory?

 
Quote
They indeed use live rounds on demonstrators, rock throwers, and others when they are in no real danger. There are many, many more examples. Hundreds of Palestinians have been shot and killed by the IDF.

I know you don't like being called a liar, but seriously, that's just untrue. The army has policies and code of conduct.
They do not use live rounds unless there is life threatening danger. Also- have you ever been hit by a rock thrown at you? I'm not talking about a pebble, I'm talking about actual construction bricks thrown at you in full speed. You might want to try that out (don't), before claiming that there is no real danger in that.

I don't need to watch these videos, because these videos are more often than not being edited to show a glimpse of the full picture. Our army has many faults, our soldiers are humans, and like any humans can be susceptible to emotions and errors, but I know that our army is very strict about combat code of conduct, and that means that if live rounds were shot into a demonstration, it was because there was someone armed on the other side, hiding between the rock throwers, using children and teens as live shields. It has happened and have been documented many times before.
You only need to look at what's going on right now in Israel surrounding the case of Alior Azaria, the soldier that had shot a captured terrorist when the man was already on the ground, he is currently being prosecuted to the full extant of the law. Sure, his story is getting extra coverage because of the public attention, but any violation like that is always being carefully examined and prosecuted, either in court marshal or in state court. Unlawful killers don't get a pass on the Israeli army, while on the other side they are considered as saints.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 05:39:56 PM by Roen »

Offline elone

Roen, as long as you refuse to watch videos or read anything that goes against your preconceived beliefs, then there is no point in continuing the conversation. To claim that the IDF has some great moral code of conduct is just a dream. A code of conduct that may be written, but is not always followed. Go read the stories of IDF soldiers (Breaking the Silence) interviewed and listen to them tell the tales of abuse. I am not making it up. Unless all the news you get comes from Arutz Sheva. Try reading Haaretz for a change. Go search the internet and google a few things. All videos are not faked, all testimonies are not lies.

Read about peoples experiences at Ben Gurion airport. Read about the abuses that go on daily in the occupied territories.

I am not suggesting that all soldiers are evil. I am only saying that often the evil  goes unpunished. Had there not been videos of the man shot in the head, do you seriously think there would have been any repercussions. The first Israeli response is to deny, then when faced with video proof, to make excuses. Have an open mind and take a look around you.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 07:51:06 AM by elone »

Offline dror

I have read the article several times and cannot find where it says Nasser broke a ceasefire.

No, but it sais Nasser brought forces into the Sinai desert, which was a violation of the ceasefire. That fact was never in question and was never denied even by Egypt. Even the strongest Israeli opposers can't deny historical fact. That ceasefire breach was very, very clear, and your article doesn't deny it. It skips over it to Nasser saying that he didn't mean to attack (=using the forces in Sinai).

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I have not found where I expressed an opinion as to what Israel should have done, maybe I missed that.

Am I to understand that you agree Israel did the right thing in preemptively attacking?

Quote
2 states for 2 people seems to imply separate states for Arabs and Jews. Why would Abbas say that, no one wants that. Since there are already over half a million Jews in West Bank and Jerusalem, that solution is not too likely.

Why not? There are 1.5 million Palestinians living in Israel (that is Israel proper, NOT the West Bank or Gaza). They are Israeli citizens, they have equal rights, they vote, they have members of the Israeli parliament, etc. That doesn't stop Israel from being a Jewish state.
I see no reason Palestine can't be a Palestinian state with Jewish citizens.

Quote
Would Israel accept Palestine as an Islamic state? Hardly.

Why on earth not? I absolutely think Israel would accept Palestine as an Islamic state, if the Palestinians want Islam to be their country's religion.
As for Bibi - I share in your dreams that he will evacuate his post. He is the worst PM Israel ever had.

Quote
I am not sure about the success argument. The argument I hear are that they ore disproportionate in their response.

Yeah, that's just another part of the "too successful" arguments.
Yesterday, Israel fired 50 missiles into Gaza, targeting terrorists, after a single rocket from Gaza was shot at an Israeli city (Hamas targets civilians by choice, all the time, that is its goal). How many Palestinian civilians were killed? 0. 50 missiels on terror targets, 0 civilian casualties. Now THAT's what I call successful. What was the world's reaction? "Disproportionate force." 0 casualties.

Quote
A lot of evil is successful as oppressors. Saddam was successful, Kim of North Korea is successful, that does not make their means to that success morally right.

I agree. Hamas is also successful, and is Evil. The PLO possibly. Yet somehow, as the video I brought suggests, Israel will be the first liberal Democracy to be evil and want war. It is highly unlikely.

Quote
They indeed use live rounds on demonstrators, rock throwers, and others when they are in no real danger. There are many, many more examples. Hundreds of Palestinians have been shot and killed by the IDF.


I'm sorry, but that looks like Pallywood to me. Where is the blood? Fires are shot and people just stand there or run to the wounded, not trying to escape? How convenient that you don't see the person shooting, and that there just happened to be a camera there.
Look up "Pallywood."
Here's an example (the location looks familiar?)


Why on earth should I believe videos the Palestinians post, when they are so clearly doctoring these videos? It makes it VERY hard to believe them when something actually happens.

Quote
Looks like a map. I cannot comment on the first and last panels, but the two middle ones look accurate. The seem to depict the loss of land by the Palestinians over time. So?

That map is used by BDS all across the globe, and like the Pallywood videos above, it is clearly FAKE. It's not only that they are fake, but they do so in a way that is meant to rewrite history.
The first panel marks all the Jewish towns and cities before 1948. Then it takes all the rest, and paints it green, as if it was Palestinian. That is of course false. Palestinians never owned those lands. It belonged to the Othoman Empire, then to the British mandate, then to Israel, Egypt and Jordan after 1949.

Quote
Have you seen this map. Where is Palestine??


It's a tourism map... What's your point?
I personally would have shown Israel's border, but this goes both ways.
Here is how the Palestinian Authority sees Israel:
http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=826&doc_id=14527

Quote
A code of conduct that may be written, but is not always followed.

That is true. It is not always followed. There are always rule breakers. Israel right now is in the middle of a trial for a soldier who killed a terrorist, because he shot him in the head after the terrorist was already neutralized.
When was the last time the PA tried someone for killing an Israeli? They celebrate the murderers.

Quote
Try reading Haaretz for a change. Go search the internet and google a few things. All videos are not faked, all testimonies are not lies.

I'm subscribed to Haaretz. Best paper in Israel :D
Also not all videos are lies and not all testimonies fake, but too many of them are.

Quote
Read about peoples experiences at Ben Gurion airport. Read about the abuses that go on daily in the occupied territories.

Read about the terror attacks Israel suffered before those security measures were enacted. You suggest Israel is doing those things "just because."

Quote
I am not suggesting that all soldiers are evil. I am only saying that often the evil  goes unpunished.


That's true. A lot of terrorists go unpunished, unfortunately, and if they are then their families get rewarded for it.

Quote
Had there not been videos of the man shot in the head, do you seriously think there would have been any repercussions.

There usually are, and they cause great debate in Israel - punishing soldiers for shooting terrorists isn't as obvious as one would think.
This trial is very public because of the video, usually the trials are done within the military.

Quote
The first Israeli response is to deny, then when faced with video proof, to make excuses. Have an open mind and take a look around you.

Actually, Israeli officials immediately denounced that act, and said the soldier will be tried for his actions, a trial which could well end up in favor of the soldier. The killed Palestinian was a terrorist who just finished stabbing people. If the soldier can prove he was fearful for his life (which is not, like, out of the question, since terrorists have, in the past, strapped bomb vests to themselves and blew themselves up when people came to treat them after they were shot), he will probably get a very reduced punishment.

Also, no matter what, this is fair play. The guy was a terrorist. As usual, the losers complain when they lose. If he doesn't want to get shot, he shouldn't stab people.

Offline elone

From Wikipedia.

The Beitunia killings refers to the consecutive killings of two Palestinian teenagers, which took place on the occasion of the annual Nakba day protests on May 15, 2014, near the Israeli Ofer Prison outside Beitunia in the occupied West Bank. Israel described the protest as a riot in which a crowd refused to disperse,[1] and initially denied responsibility, saying the cause of the deaths was unknown, the deaths were faked, that video clips of the killings either failed to capture the violence of the scene shortly before, or might have been manipulated, that soldiers had been provoked and that only rubber bullets had been fired.[1][2] Third party evidence and investigations, based on multiple sources, refuted the IDF position, while an autopsy showed that one of the teenagers had been shot with live ammunition.[3]

Ben Deri (21) of Rishon LeZion, an Israeli border police officer was arrested six months later and charged with shooting one of the two killed Palestinians, Nadim Nawarah (17)[4][5] after forensic evidence proved one of the lethal bullets came from his gun.[6]

Not faked.

Offline RoenTopic starter

From Wikipedia.

The Beitunia killings refers to the consecutive killings of two Palestinian teenagers, which took place on the occasion of the annual Nakba day protests on May 15, 2014, near the Israeli Ofer Prison outside Beitunia in the occupied West Bank. Israel described the protest as a riot in which a crowd refused to disperse,[1] and initially denied responsibility, saying the cause of the deaths was unknown, the deaths were faked, that video clips of the killings either failed to capture the violence of the scene shortly before, or might have been manipulated, that soldiers had been provoked and that only rubber bullets had been fired.[1][2] Third party evidence and investigations, based on multiple sources, refuted the IDF position, while an autopsy showed that one of the teenagers had been shot with live ammunition.[3]

Ben Deri (21) of Rishon LeZion, an Israeli border police officer was arrested six months later and charged with shooting one of the two killed Palestinians, Nadim Nawarah (17)[4][5] after forensic evidence proved one of the lethal bullets came from his gun.[6]

Not faked.
Wikipedia is edited by users, not the most reliable or transparent source, but even then your own extract says they have been prosecuted. So much for Israeli mandated murders...

If I may, it seems to me that you pick and choose the arguments you answer to, while ignoring those that debunk or at least challenge your previous claims. That is not how a debate is conducted, it is quite discouraging when people take the time and effort to respond to your arguments and then simply get ignored and spun by a work of nitpicking and reframing of the argument.

Please try and respect the rest of the participants of this debate as they do you.

Offline elone

I will always choose what I want to respond to because much of what is here is just your opinion with no backup whatsoever. You continue to deny the truth and bend everything to what you believe. That is not how debates are conducted!

For example, the maps of Palestine, you claim are fakes because it calls the land Palestine. Apparently Palestine never existed. You say the maps are fake, they rewrite history, they are BDS. The land was Ottoman etc. The land was called Palestine whether you want to believe it or not. Go take a look at old maps. Again, I made no real comment on the maps other than they portrayed the UN demarcation in 1948 and the lines in 1967. If you want to deny the existence of Palestinians, fine, we have nothing to talk about. It would seem to me that people who live in a land referred to as Palestine have the right to call themselves Palestinians. You rant over those maps, but pass over the map produced by Israelis showing no Palestine. There is just no response to that.

You ask me if I agree Israel did the right thing in preemptively attacking in 1967. Again, I could care less. Why would I bother answering that? It was the right thing for Israel obviously, but that was not the point of discussion.

You say Nasser violated the ceasefire. Where did you get that information? What ceasefire? Are you talking about the 1949 Armistice agreement? There were multiple violations of that on both sides. Who knows, as far as I am concerned just another one of your opinions.

You still refer to the video as a fake. Your opinion again, everyone else seems to think that the security camera footage is real. By the way, the soldier who shot them down in cold blood has not been charged with murder, only manslaughter, and as far as I can find he has not been convicted of anything. Justice? Again, nothing I wrote said there have been prosecutions as yet. I could have posted hundreds of videos showing how inhumane the IDF is, but you would just write them off as fakes, so why bother. Did you see the one with the little girl riding a bicycle on a Jewish only road in Hebron last week? The IDF stopped her, puthis foot on her bike and she ran off crying. They threw her bike in the bushes. Nice guys. Oh yeah, probably faked.

Again, 2 states for 2 peoples. Read my post. I said it implied separatism, not integration. Really though, how many settlers do you think would agree to live under Palestinian rule? Honestly. Israel will probably annex it all so it will not matter.

Also, the Palestinians don't try people who kill Israelis because the IDF and police kill them, hence no trials. Like the Israeli's who celebrate Kahane and Goldstein and dance in the streets shouting Death to Arabs, there are always going to be extremists.

Ben Gurion airport, first you deny that anyone is harassed or denied entry, then you say, of course they do it to prevent terrorist attacks. Okay, at least you agree there are people denied entry. Again, read the stories about the terror people go through there. Being forced to give passwords to email accounts so authorities can check up on them, denying entry if they do not comply. Necessary to prevent attacks, who knows, pretty extreme.

I don't have stats that I can find, but most military trials result in light or no punishment at all. Palestinians who complain about abuses rarely see justice.

Again, so the guy shot in the head was a terrorist so it is ok by you, he might have had explosives. What about Israeli terrorists. They get arrested, maybe, but not shot down. Again, the videos of soldiers shooting women who the soldiers say had a knife. Half a dozen armed soldiers in combat gear and one woman wielding a knife. They could not disarm her? No they gun her down. Has happened more than once. Brave lads those IDF boys.

Speaking of terrorists, what do you think of Irgun, Stern gang, Lehi, Palmach, and Haganah? Everything we hear is terror tunnels, terror this, terror that. Why is it that no one acknowledges that Israel was born by terrorism. Terrorism against the British and Arabs. Assassinating UN people. Ancient history? Shamir and Begin were both terrorists and ended up as prime ministers. Who did you say exalted their terrorists?

I am just about done with this discussion. I fully understand that you must defend your country, I would do the same. I also will admit when my country is in the wrong. You and Israel never seem to admit to their wrongs unless forced by overwhelming evidence. Take the attack on the USS Liberty for instance, still no official acknowledgement. Of course it was an accident. A ship flying an American flag on a clear sunny day was mistaken for an Egyptian freighter in international waters. Right.

Nuclear weapons, chemical and biological weapons, of course it is ok for Israel to have them, but no one else. Israel can not even come clean on that one. Didn't we attack Iraq for the same offense? They of course, had none of them. You talk about double standards.

I think I am done here.











Offline RoenTopic starter

I will always choose what I want to respond to because much of what is here is just your opinion with no backup whatsoever. You continue to deny the truth and bend everything to what you believe. That is not how debates are conducted!
I'm sorry that your arguments repeatedly get challenged, it's easy to see that you are getting upset when confronted with the reality as it is here. That is why I advised you to take the time and actually look and consider facts that contradict your previously determined opinions. Only looking at reports, theories and rumors that affirm your opinions is hardly researching. However, as much as I understand your frustration, it's no excuse to be that rude. We've backed up our arguments, with websites that are mostly balanced (unlike the ones you've provided), please try and keep this debate civil.
If you wish to retire from it, you are free to do so, but I honestly wish you didn't.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 01:16:01 AM by Roen »

Offline elone

I just pointed out all of the things you said in your last post that had no reference to any sources for what you implied. You can always write your opinions, and that is what you have done. "We've backed up our arguments", is that the royal "We" or do you have help from the hasbara propagandists that haunt the web.

In your last post you had zero sources for anything other than a ridiculous video and a map in the background on a wall.

It is obvious that there is no point in discussions. Neither of us will change our views. Maybe one day your country will lift their foot off the neck of the Palestinians. If not, hopefully the world will eventually force it to.

BDS

Offline RoenTopic starter

I just pointed out all of the things you said in your last post that had no reference to any sources for what you implied. You can always write your opinions, and that is what you have done. "We've backed up our arguments", is that the royal "We" or do you have help from the hasbara propagandists that haunt the web.

In your last post you had zero sources for anything other than a ridiculous video and a map in the background on a wall.

It is obvious that there is no point in discussions. Neither of us will change our views. Maybe one day your country will lift their foot off the neck of the Palestinians. If not, hopefully the world will eventually force it to.

BDS
A. You might not have noticed, but you have been debating with more than one person and your very recent post, the rude and petulant one, was to Dror's post, not mine.

B. If you cannot continue this discussion with a respectful and accepting spirit, and without these dismissive remarks, then perhaps it is best that you leave and maybe return once you have settled down.

I'm not telling you to go, but if you want to, I now believe that you should. I did not create this discussion so people would be berated in such a rude and condescending tone.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 08:34:10 AM by Roen »

Offline Kythia

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I'll level, from the outside this seems to be getting acrimonious on both sides.  Maybe time to step away from the computer for a moment, guys?