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Author Topic: Black Lives Matter (lil' bit of a rant)  (Read 3027 times)

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Offline Cassandra LeMayTopic starter

Black Lives Matter (lil' bit of a rant)
« on: August 08, 2016, 08:45:00 AM »
I guess I am posting this to get it off my chest. If you want to reply, feel free to do so, but I can't guarantee I'll engage in any debate on the topic.  Depends on what is said - and how.


Black Lives Matter.

When I first heard this I thought it was a self-evident truth that needed no saying. But when I heard it said I also thought that it was pretty silly, almost arrogant. After all, every life matters, right?

But that's not what it says, is it? Where does it say "black lives matter more than..."? Nowhere but in the mind of the listener.

It doesn't have to mean a preference for one sort of life over another. That's what the listener infers, not what the statement implies.

But... what if that was what was the intended implication? Would that be bad?

Yes! Of course! Why should the life of a black person be more important than that of a white, or yellow, or red person? It shouldn't be.

But... is that all the statement can mean, no matter what someone wants to imply? Could there still be merit in the statement "Black Lives Matter"?

Yes. But it may depend on how you read the word "lives".

What is a life?

In a basic sense it is the opposite of being dead. And in that regard every life is equally precious.

But we also talk about "life" in a different sense. When we tell someone to "get a life" we are not asking them to seek urgent reanimation because they have just died.

When we talk about someone having a good life we don't mean they are fighting off death valiantly.

A life can be more than the absence of death. A life can mean the total of a person's life experiences and the circumstances they lived in. Personal decisions figure into it, but - to a large extend - so do educational and occupational opportunities (and many other external factors).

And I think in this regard Black Lives Matter.

Social mobility of African Americans is almost nonexistent – and where it exists it is more often downward than upward.

Poverty among African Americans is multigenerational. Blacks who were raised in poor neighborhoods are far more likely to remain in poor neighborhoods than white people. (And black people raised in affluent neighborhoods are far more likely to slip down the social ladder than whites from the same ares.) The whole "rags to riches" story may be a bit of a myth to begin with, but for Blacks it is definitely far more of a myth than for Whites.

Growing up in poor neighborhoods means less access to educational opportunities. It means growing up in more violent neighborhoods. It means lack of opportunity to improve one's station in life.

African Americans are stuck on the low rungs of the American society. Black lives matter because their problems go unadressed and keep a large segment of the American population disenfranchised 50 years into the post civil rights era.

We are looking here at a whole continuum of interrelated problems that affect African Americans far more strongly than most white Americans.

So yeah. Black Lives Matter. Blacks were supposed to be made equal decades ago and they still aren't. So don't tell me that movement doesn't have a point. A focus on police violence may cloud that point, but it is there - and it is worth talking about.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 08:50:23 AM by Cassandra LeMay »

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Re: Black Lives Matter (lil' bit of a rant)
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2016, 01:20:44 AM »
I am 100% on board with Black Lives Matter.  However, I think some of the confusion or hostility towards it could have been avoided by the addition of the word 'Too' to the term:  Black LivesMatter, Too.  Some people seem to jump to conclusions with the title.  Many of them are inclined or outright racists.  Some are not.  But since the movement has never been 'Only Black Lives Matter', the addition of the 'Too' would have merely emphasized that point, which is one I tend to get bogged down in when discussing my support of them with other people who don't understand why I support them.

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Re: Black Lives Matter (lil' bit of a rant)
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2016, 06:13:40 PM »
While I understand that "Black Lives Matter, Too" would have cleared up some of the confusion, I also think that the statement, as it is, and in regards to the reactions it gets, sort of highlights the problem. That people can so violently feel attacked by the statement alone, that they can be so adverse to the conversation it ushers in, that they can automatically take it as bad as it is possible to understand it...? Well, I think that on some level, that speaks to the disparity.

Counting aside the focus on police interactions, if a significant amount of the population automatically reacts disfavourably to the words means that they still see an implied difference, enough to feel attacked by the admonition. Based on the fact that part of the platform of the movement is to fight systemic racism, I think the phrase does a wonderful job of making a spotlight for the discussion, as-is.

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: Black Lives Matter (lil' bit of a rant)
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2016, 06:41:52 PM »
I found this explanation very helpful when talking to more hostile people.


Funnily enough, this woman believes that it is impossible for black people to be racist. See her condescending rant below where she twists the definition of racism in order to support her argument. I'm not sure if it's ignorance on her part or if it's just MTV deliberately pandering to their audience.



While I agree with BLM's use of peaceful protest to get their message across, I think something is missing in their approach. I see their approach to delivering their message bringing more division than unity.


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Re: Black Lives Matter (lil' bit of a rant)
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2016, 06:57:02 PM »
They just face the same problem as every other group, letting extremists run about corrupting the internal message and not doing any internal policing and casting out the extremists or hushing them up. It does not make BLM or any other group bad. its just that we always have the same problem of extremists getting the attention while moderates dont wag the finger at those within their own group who do the same things they protest against or shame the whole group.

Every group in the world has this problem you just have to look. And while it doesn't make the overall group bad, it is still their responsibility to show and prove that they aren't like that and are peaceful and pro equality or whatever their goal is. Of not they become hypocritical and their message loses value. *frowns at members of my own faith who do it...all...the damn...time...*


Is it bad I kind of want to say "What about Hispanics?" I feel they have been forgotten in all of this. :/
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 07:02:39 PM by Lustful Bride »

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Re: Black Lives Matter (lil' bit of a rant)
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2016, 07:20:26 PM »
Funnily enough, this woman believes that it is impossible for black people to be racist. See her condescending rant below where she twists the definition of racism in order to support her argument. I'm not sure if it's ignorance on her part or if it's just MTV deliberately pandering to their audience.



While I agree with BLM's use of peaceful protest to get their message across, I think something is missing in their approach. I see their approach to delivering their message bringing more division than unity.

This woman is far from ignorant.

Racism in America is built on a system. Black people can be very bigoted and prejudiced, but we cannot be racist.

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: Black Lives Matter (lil' bit of a rant)
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2016, 07:21:40 PM »
Is it bad I kind of want to say "What about Hispanics?" I feel they have been forgotten in all of this. :/

No, they have not been forgotten. But black people can not speak on their behalf. They need to have someone that can speak for them. That can stand up in their communities. That is not for us to do. But as PoC, we can come together collectively.

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: Black Lives Matter (lil' bit of a rant)
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2016, 07:26:16 PM »
Another thing - there isn't a damn thing about BLM that is dividing a community.

All lives Matter
Blue Lives Matter

Those are dividing movements.

Why? Because even black police officers have been targeted by their own people in their profession.

If you have enough heart to slander a dead woman's mural by putting "all lives matter" all over it, then you're the problem. Not BLM.

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Re: Black Lives Matter (lil' bit of a rant)
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2016, 07:30:22 PM »
This woman is far from ignorant.

Racism in America is built on a system. Black people can be very bigoted and prejudiced, but we cannot be racist.


......

*gets the definition of Racism*

Quote
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

•prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

Anyone can be racist, it is not inherent to whites and it isn't monopolized. NO group is immune to it, it is a Human problem.

 If a Hispanic went around saying that all People of Arabic descent were terrorists, that would be racist. If a white person went around saying blacks were lazy, that is racist. If a Black person went around saying all Asians are lying thieves, then that would be racist. etc. etc.

Anyone can be racist.


Another thing - there isn't a damn thing about BLM that is dividing a community.

All lives Matter
Blue Lives Matter

Those are dividing movements.

Why? Because even black police officers have been targeted by their own people in their profession.

If you have enough heart to slander a dead woman's mural by putting "all lives matter" all over it, then you're the problem. Not BLM.

Technically anything put on a mural could be slanderous. Im pro everyone :P Both BLM and Blue Lives and All lives.

Every life is sacred, every soul has value and no one has the right to end it before its time.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 07:31:52 PM by Lustful Bride »

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Re: Black Lives Matter (lil' bit of a rant)
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2016, 07:33:31 PM »
In America...racism is a system. I don't know how else to explain it.

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Re: Black Lives Matter (lil' bit of a rant)
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2016, 07:37:17 PM »
In America...racism is a system. I don't know how else to explain it.

Isn't that Institutionalized Racism though?

Look I"m not saying it doesn't exist, its still a problem, and will always be a problem so long as humans have any difference at all. I don't even know what i'm trying to say now. :/


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Re: Black Lives Matter (lil' bit of a rant)
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2016, 07:38:21 PM »
Isn't that Institutionalized Racism though?

Look I"m not saying it doesn't exist, its still a problem, and will always be a problem so long as humans have any difference at all. I don't even know what i'm trying to say now. :/


http://racerelations.about.com/od/historyofracerelations/tp/Examples-Of-Institutional-Racism-In-The-United-States.htm


And I know there is a dictionary definition of racism. But there is also a dictionary definition of N***** that means an ignorant person - but...we all know thats not correct.

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Re: Black Lives Matter (lil' bit of a rant)
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2016, 07:44:41 PM »
http://racerelations.about.com/od/historyofracerelations/tp/Examples-Of-Institutional-Racism-In-The-United-States.htm


And I know there is a dictionary definition of racism. But there is also a dictionary definition of N***** that means an ignorant person - but...we all know thats not correct.

Okay, started reading and ended up opening three other links from the "Related articles" So as I read...unsure what else to say.
In the meantime I'm glad to have an intelligent conversation on this.

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Re: Black Lives Matter (lil' bit of a rant)
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2016, 07:48:14 PM »
Explaining things is hard. Everyone should just have a very open mind and willing to listen to them. From the outside, if you're not walking in someone elses shoes, its hard to understand what they're going through.

Like, I couldn't speak on behalf of a Transman or woman. I couldn't speak on behalf of a non-binary individual. I couldn't speak for a Muslim person or anyone from a differing ethnic background.

I can only speak as a black queer woman living in America. But I can understand the struggle that black people go through in various Latino communities and countries. But I couldn't speak for the hispanic community in America.

Its complicated. Everyone needs a voice. Since black people just seem to be louder, other communities feel like they're being ignored and thats not the case at all.

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: Black Lives Matter (lil' bit of a rant)
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2016, 08:02:17 PM »
Institutional racism and racism are two different things. She is using the definition of institutional racism when talking about racism.

By the way, which "institutions" are being used to discriminate against black people? I'm not talking about 30 years ago, I mean today, in this day and age.

And I know there is a dictionary definition of racism. But there is also a dictionary definition of N***** that means an ignorant person - but...we all know thats not correct.

OK, So then we can just ignore the dictionary and make up our own definitions or swap them around as we see fit? While the dictionary is a reflection of the meanings that people assign to words and not the definition or origin of our language itself, we still need to be consistent with our definitions. While "light red" is similar to "red", it is not accurate to call something that is red "light red" or "pink". Likewise, it is not accurate to speak about racism while using the definition of institutional racism.






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Re: Black Lives Matter (lil' bit of a rant)
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2016, 08:06:20 PM »
Institutional racism and racism are two different things. She is using the definition of institutional racism when talking about racism.

By the way, which "institutions" are being used to discriminate against black people? I'm not talking about 30 years ago, I mean today, in this day and age.

OK, So then we can just ignore the dictionary and make up our own definitions or swap them around as we see fit? While the dictionary is a reflection of the meanings that people assign to words and not the definition or origin of our language itself, we still need to be consistent with our definitions. While "light red" is similar to "red", it is not accurate to call something that is red "light red" or "pink". Likewise, it is not accurate to speak about racism while using the definition of institutional racism.

We're talking about black people being harassed by cops just because they're black. We're talking about schools that ban black hairstyles because it's seen as a distraction. There are lots of things. But when I talk about racism - I'm talking about the government.

But some people to have excuses to use racial slurs because the "dictionary definition is different".

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Re: Black Lives Matter (lil' bit of a rant)
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2016, 08:17:15 PM »
Explaining things is hard. Everyone should just have a very open mind and willing to listen to them. From the outside, if you're not walking in someone elses shoes, its hard to understand what they're going through.

Like, I couldn't speak on behalf of a Transman or woman. I couldn't speak on behalf of a non-binary individual. I couldn't speak for a Muslim person or anyone from a differing ethnic background.

I can only speak as a black queer woman living in America. But I can understand the struggle that black people go through in various Latino communities and countries. But I couldn't speak for the hispanic community in America.

Its complicated. Everyone needs a voice. Since black people just seem to be louder, other communities feel like they're being ignored and thats not the case at all.

That's how life is, one big spiral of double standards, back stabbing and two faces. To the point its hard to tell what the point is anymore.

I don't know what you have been through. I don't know what injustice you might have faced, what discrimination and prejudice. But that doesn't mean I cannot learn and through shared knowledge work to make it better.

At the same time you don't know what I have been through and the pains I have suffered, while it may not be the same or to the highest degree as yours it also doesn't devalue it. The one thing we can be sure of is that everyone on earth has their own moment of pure emotional or physical agony.

I honestly didn't know race was a thing till my teens, when I accidentally said I was Puerto Rican and got looks. Before that I just knew Uniformity and saluting the flag when the trumpet plays. It wasn't until I got older I saw we rip eachother apart for every little thing.

Still as I was saying, its good to get an intelligent discussion on Race and such.

Before hand my race talks could be broken down to a few categories

1:Dad.: Everyone on Earth is shit, including us, and everyone is going to die some day. Don't ever think your better than anyone because of your race, faith or bank account. And vice versa don't ever think anyone else is better than you for the same reasons.

2:Mom:Be nice to everyone and they will be nice to you.

3:TV: We can all work together and hold hands to make it right.

4:Youtube/Internet: *Incomprehensible Eldritch screaming with everyone calling everyone else some racial slur while also proclaiming their own race as the superior one*

Reminds me of a certain famous quote.
Quote
The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”

5:Tumblr: All whites are racist, your all inherently racist from cradle to grave and should feel bad about it always even if you never did anything racist you microaggresionist slime!



We're talking about black people being harassed by cops just because they're black. We're talking about schools that ban black hairstyles because it's seen as a distraction. There are lots of things. But when I talk about racism - I'm talking about the government.

But some people to have excuses to use racial slurs because the "dictionary definition is different".


To be fair, I will agree that parts of the government are still racist *cough* Congress *cough* and police. But I don't think its every single level is racist. The guy punching out paperwork in a cubicle is not oppressing anyone. Its more the ones that wake up one morning and decide to enact ass backwards policies that should be looked at as racist.

Then those people are idiotic and full of shit :P . Its like people using the word Fag and pretending it means something else when it is only ever used to mean an insult to homosexual men.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 08:32:28 PM by Lustful Bride »

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Re: Black Lives Matter (lil' bit of a rant)
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2016, 08:19:59 PM »
When America still takes an ethnic censuses, you know its still racist lol

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Re: Black Lives Matter (lil' bit of a rant)
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2016, 08:30:46 PM »
When America still takes an ethnic censuses, you know its still racist lol

*Puts on my dunce cap and prepares to say something stupid*

But if that wasn't a question in the census how would they figure out what the ratio of races and such is without having people stand around and literally count everyone.

I think the Census is kind of outdated anyway due to population but meh. *shrug* It probably helps someone do their job somewhere.

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Re: Black Lives Matter (lil' bit of a rant)
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2016, 08:33:18 PM »
No! Just because your opinion is different, doesn't mean its stupid.

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Re: Black Lives Matter (lil' bit of a rant)
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2016, 08:39:39 PM »
No! Just because your opinion is different, doesn't mean its stupid.

Nah don't mind that :P Im accustomed to beating myself up for fun. Its how I coped with being high functioning in the "Special Education" Class...which really just amounted to "Put those disabled kids over there out of sight and make them be quiet".

You wanna see some other type of modern injustice look at how the Disabled are treated, especially in school that is fucked up. *

But enough of me playing the tiny violin, my question still remains.

Why is the Census bad? I haven't taken one in a while so maybe its different now and in other states than Virginia.

They made us take one way back in highschool. What Race, Faith, Sexuality and etc were we and such.


EDIT:

Me blathering on about Mental Disabilities
*Though this does remind me of a messed up conversation I had with one of my college proffesors about an unnerving attitude that she claimed to see among some specialists. That some people were claiming that Autism only affected Whites and I remember saying that it was bullshit because I remember plenty of both Hispanics and African Americans with autism from my classes.

and then I argued that race based statistics were BS because most Caucasians live in 1st world countries where they have access to medical facilities that can identify behavioral and mental disabilities/etc and that was likely why the scales were being lopsided. Where as in less developed countries it can sadly just be seen as the child being dumb or purposefully not behaving themselves.

And that attitudes and ideas like that hurt everyone because then it turns into "that's just a white person disease" and PoC who suffer autism will not be taken seriously because of it.

I cant remember if I was going somewhere with this or not :/
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 08:48:29 PM by Lustful Bride »

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Re: Black Lives Matter (lil' bit of a rant)
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2016, 10:09:45 PM »
In America...racism is a system. I don't know how else to explain it.

Even by this definition - even using this definition - blacks still actively engage in it.

I live in Compton. 49.5% black, 49.5% hispanic. Black flight is following white flight here.

I can walk into some businesses and tell if a black or hispanic person is doing the hiring. They don't discriminate against white people, of course. Quite the opposite. Pretty sure the white unemployment is effectively zero. But walk into enough businesses and you can tell someone is ignoring nearly half the city's population as a possible employment source on occasion.

I'm not exactly afraid of a Mugabe style 'vengeance' against whites ever happening in the United States, but I do believe this "blacks can't be racist" bit needs to stop. Becoming convinced of your infallible moral superiority is a path to condoning some pretty horrific things.

To say nothing of fueling the alt-right with that sort of language.

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Re: Black Lives Matter (lil' bit of a rant)
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2016, 10:53:42 PM »
There is a much bigger picture here. My sister grew up in Compton, has 3 degrees, 2 of which are master's degrees. She would definitely have a different view and can attest to systematic racism as well. I was born in Oakland, grew up in Sacramento - I can also say there is a difference.

The is a large piece missing from this argument and it feels to me that...I could list and go on forever what is and how it affects people of color and still someone will say "It's not real"

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: Black Lives Matter (lil' bit of a rant)
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2016, 10:55:46 PM »
When America still takes an ethnic censuses, you know its still racist lol

Although you may have meant that as a joke (I'm not really sure), it got me interested in looking for an answer. I got this so far:

Reasons for collecting information on race

Information on race is required for many Federal programs and is critical in making policy decisions, particularly for civil rights. States use these data to meet legislative redistricting principles. Race data also are used to promote equal employment opportunities and to assess racial disparities in health and environmental risks.

As for the police being biased, I agree that some of them seem to have a very serious problem with shooting people when the use of non-lethal force is sufficient based on what I've seen on the news. There are about 800,000 cops in the US based on numbers from 2008. The hand full of tragic incidents that we see on TV represent a small percentage and not the whole. I don't doubt that some of these shootings could have been racially motivated, some people are just dicks, but there's more to the picture if you look at the numbers.

There's a stronger correlation of death by cop based on gender than on race. Based on the statistics below, you are far more likely to be killed by a cop if you are male  than if you are black. If a black male is shot by a cop, should he assume that it was because he was black or was it because he was male given these numbers?  The statistics, tell you how many shootings occurred, but not why they occurred, or under what circumstances.

Consider too, the number of deaths by cop versus the population in the US ( Close to 320 million people ).  A few hundred deaths out of a few hundred million is a pretty small percentage. The shootings that we have seen on the news this year and years prior are horribly tragic, but are by no means the sort of violent epidemic that the news media has made it out to be.

Some links to stats that I found:

https://thinkprogress.org/heres-how-many-people-police-killed-in-2015-e9e78c890966#.v93k3lixo
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-08/breakdown-us-citizens-killed-cops-2016
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/


edit: corrections in blue
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 10:57:46 PM by TaintedAndDelish »

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Re: Black Lives Matter (lil' bit of a rant)
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2016, 11:03:18 PM »
Its still unnecessary nonetheless.

The poor are targeted and if you're a PoC, you're more likely to get shot.

No matter the statistics, I can say that I'm afraid of cops whenever I see them. I'm afraid for them to walk up to me, talk to me, or drive by me. I'm afraid to serve them at work and I get incredibly uncomfortable when people say "well, he shouldn't have done that or he wouldn't have gotten shot."

Cops should never shoot to kill unless there are no other means. Our cops are not only power hungry, they're trigger happy. The only way for this to end is if cops are convicted as criminals when they shoot a 12 year old boy with a toy gun.

I don't know what else to say...like - I'm trying to..help, educate if I can...that racism is alive and well...and..

Its like..I don't know

Lol this is depressing as shit. No one seems to care.