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Author Topic: Global Warming and the Green Revolution  (Read 4276 times)

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Offline LisiusChaseTopic starter

Re: Global Warming and the Green Revolution
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2008, 10:40:08 AM »
Caeli
De-Railing is not the word I would use; that is all very insightful well though out data that adds a lot more insight on what I lacked for information about global warming in my first post; and is very helpful.

Not only do I agree with most of it, but I have read a lot about this. In fact, there was a time during the medieval era that was even hotter than now I believe, right after the mini ice age. There is another theory I wish to point out; I don't know the official term for it, nor where to find it, but it deals with things on a Cosmic scale; where the planets orbit could be getting out of whack because our planet is indeed growing. The reason scientist don't wish to accept this theory, however, is because tectonic plates is already agreed to be fact; if the planet was indeed growing, and has been since it was made, then in theory tectonic plate theories would have to be revised.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Global Warming and the Green Revolution
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2008, 11:33:30 AM »
Out of curiosity, wouldn't that mean that the planet is somehow becoming less dense on the average?  For a planet to increase in size 1 km...

*expands the binomial, distributes the (4πr3)/3, combines like terms, simplifies, looks up average radius of Earth as of 2000 CE*

would require 510,144,533.575724701 km3 of volume.  Also, as gravity is dependent on mass (which has to be conserved, unless we have a quasar at the Earth's core - which would be interesting), an increase in diameter would result in a lowering of the gravitational constant, which could then be measured.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Global Warming and the Green Revolution
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2008, 11:56:05 AM »
I don't like alarmist politics as a rule Global Warming is the largest alarmist event to occur in a LONG time. I remember the Y2K scare where all computers would shut down and destroy Western Civization now how much money did we spend as a country and economic power to "fix" the Y2K problem that might not have been a problem at all?

I look at this logically its likely too late to prevent Global Warming to a great degree if humans are a major factor and nations like China and their energy growth using dirty coal technology will cancel anything the US would do and then some. India is about to put out a very cheap car that everyone there with 1700 Euros will want to buy it seems. Add to that the fact I keep trying to point out THE UNITED STATES CANNOT AFFORD A RADICAL GREEN POWER PROGRAM. Especially now. We have it looks to be a $12 Trillion national debt where is the money supposed to come from? For all its flaws coal power plants are cheap to produce power, oil right now is very cheap as you know - I see no reason to take such a radical step at this time as tossing away alot of money on a questionable technology to do a substitution that is not cost effective as far as I can tell.

Offline The Overlord

Re: Global Warming and the Green Revolution
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2008, 04:15:02 PM »
You can't throw red dye on a mink coat and not get people pissed. :D

Well of course, that's as intended. Sometimes you have to create shockwaves in the pond to seize awareness. The overlying problem with that approach is that you're destroying personal property. You could say I'm not always in 100% in agreement PETA's exact methods, but I do admire their tactics.

Offline The Overlord

Re: Global Warming and the Green Revolution
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2008, 04:28:17 PM »
Add to that the fact I keep trying to point out THE UNITED STATES CANNOT AFFORD A RADICAL GREEN POWER PROGRAM. Especially now. We have it looks to be a $12 Trillion national debt where is the money supposed to come from?

As thus we come to perhaps the biggest challenge facing us as a nation in the modern era. It doesn't matter if we can't afford it; we have to do it. We're going to have to find a way to make it more affordable, attainable, etc.

For one thing, big business sometimes seizes an idea and sits on it because it's too much of a threat to their livelihood. Look at the 1948 Tucker; the man produced an automobile that was years ahead of its time, but the Big Three put the brakes on it by making sure he couldn't get steel to build them. If they let him build it, Detroit would have had to scale up to match the competition, which was superior.

My point is, unless any of us here can honestly say we're in the know; we know some of the stuff big business has shelved, or we're research scientists or engineers, we simply can't say we know that affordable fuel-cell technology for automobiles exists right now, but is undeveloped due to greed.

We simply can't know if feasible nuclear fusion technology exists on a shelf right now, or if a cure for AIDS and most cancers exists.

I assume you all understand my point, and the situation is dire enough now that we need to be radical. I'm no more for government meddling in our affairs than any of you, but big business proves time and again it needs a watchdog.

In my view, if such shelved tech needs to be forcibly seized and developed by those willing to use it, then that's what we need to do. I'm talking the kitchen sink here folks; forcible seizure of greedy company assets, even assassination of unwilling CEO's if need be. We can't play paddy cake any more on this stuff, the time to move purposefully is now.

Offline Odos

Re: Global Warming and the Green Revolution
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2008, 06:44:05 PM »
Interesting thread, I'm not going to get involved in the ins - n - outs of specifics, I don't know enough. But as far as global warming goes, then from all the information I've seen on this subject it's a natural 25000 year cycle caused by the tilt of the Earth combined with it's wobble due to the effects of lunar gravity. Is this truly the actual cause ? I don't know, nor do I think anyone knows for a fact. All that can really be said is that due to the evidence that is in vogue at the moment, then it is. This also applies to most disputes about the cause of a lot of "natural" effects.

As thus we come to perhaps the biggest challenge facing us as a nation in the modern era. It doesn't matter if we can't afford it; we have to do it. We're going to have to find a way to make it more affordable, attainable, etc.

This statement of course "assumes" that we are the cause of the "problem" and that we have the means to actually make any difference. We may well be, then again we may not, I just don't know. It all depends upon which "scientific evidence" you put most credence in, because for each pro there is a con on this particular subject.

I would like to ask a question though, does anyone actually believe truly and honestly that there is any difference in the motives of business and that of government ? I may be an old cynic but I can find no discernable difference.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Global Warming and the Green Revolution
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2008, 06:57:28 PM »
Every little bit has the potential to make a difference, for good or for ill.  At least part of the 'problem' is beyond our control (that of the cyclical Ice Age that you mentioned), but our actions do have impacts.  The question becomes what actions can be made to get us closer to healthy equilibrium.

Offline Odos

Re: Global Warming and the Green Revolution
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2008, 07:13:24 PM »
Every little bit has the potential to make a difference, for good or for ill.  At least part of the 'problem' is beyond our control (that of the cyclical Ice Age that you mentioned), but our actions do have impacts.  The question becomes what actions can be made to get us closer to healthy equilibrium.

Agreed every action has a reaction, and also agreed that it would be better for us if we can get a healthy equilibrium in whatever effects ( good or bad ) that we may cause. The trouble is that first you must define the problem, then the cause(s) and then apply any required action. Just as an example lets take global warming. Before we can even consider what to do about it we must first "know" for a fact that we are we actually contributing to it's increase and also how are we contributing. Otherwise we could actually make things worse. A prime example of this is the coastal erosion in the UK. In the 50's the scientific minds of the time concluded the best way to defend the coastline was to build breakwaters etc. The net result now, 50 years later is that those same breakwaters, far from helping have actually increased the erosion by more than 300% in some places.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Global Warming and the Green Revolution
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2008, 08:17:43 PM »
As thus we come to perhaps the biggest challenge facing us as a nation in the modern era. It doesn't matter if we can't afford it; we have to do it. We're going to have to find a way to make it more affordable, attainable, etc.

For one thing, big business sometimes seizes an idea and sits on it because it's too much of a threat to their livelihood. Look at the 1948 Tucker; the man produced an automobile that was years ahead of its time, but the Big Three put the brakes on it by making sure he couldn't get steel to build them. If they let him build it, Detroit would have had to scale up to match the competition, which was superior.

My point is, unless any of us here can honestly say we're in the know; we know some of the stuff big business has shelved, or we're research scientists or engineers, we simply can't say we know that affordable fuel-cell technology for automobiles exists right now, but is undeveloped due to greed.

We simply can't know if feasible nuclear fusion technology exists on a shelf right now, or if a cure for AIDS and most cancers exists.

I assume you all understand my point, and the situation is dire enough now that we need to be radical. I'm no more for government meddling in our affairs than any of you, but big business proves time and again it needs a watchdog.

In my view, if such shelved tech needs to be forcibly seized and developed by those willing to use it, then that's what we need to do. I'm talking the kitchen sink here folks; forcible seizure of greedy company assets, even assassination of unwilling CEO's if need be. We can't play paddy cake any more on this stuff, the time to move purposefully is now.


In the United States the government cannot just sieze intellectual property and give it to other parties there are strong laws and the courts, add to that like I pointed out coal and oil is very cheap right now in a horrible economy and we have a massive national debt in the US I don't see what your suggesting viable. Say we eliminate coal fired power plants which provides over half the power in the US we lose coal mining jobs in many vulnerable states and jobs in the power industry, with very likely increased costs here in Florida. See here the power companies can raise rates now for things like building new power systems it happened here for a nuclear power plant. Do realize what they will do if they have to drop say billions of dollars on Green Tech they will drive rates fare higher than the 25% increase we are getting hit with now.

Capitalism is not always fair I think the government should prevent fraud but not putting out a technology if they don't want to is not fraud.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Global Warming and the Green Revolution
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2008, 08:54:46 PM »
Before we can even consider what to do about it we must first "know" for a fact that we are we actually contributing to it's increase and also how are we contributing. Otherwise we could actually make things worse. A prime example of this is the coastal erosion in the UK. In the 50's the scientific minds of the time concluded the best way to defend the coastline was to build breakwaters etc. The net result now, 50 years later is that those same breakwaters, far from helping have actually increased the erosion by more than 300% in some places.

Excellent point and example - although I think Caeli's graph further up the thread shows that we have made a significant impact in the CO2 levels, based on geologic data.  Weather is a freakish thing, though, as Lorenz discovered.  Never know what impact a change will have down the line.

Offline The Overlord

Re: Global Warming and the Green Revolution
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2008, 03:25:46 AM »
In the United States the government cannot just sieze intellectual property and give it to other parties there are strong laws and the courts, add to that like I pointed out coal and oil is very cheap right now in a horrible economy and we have a massive national debt in the US I don't see what your suggesting viable. Say we eliminate coal fired power plants which provides over half the power in the US we lose coal mining jobs in many vulnerable states and jobs in the power industry, with very likely increased costs here in Florida. See here the power companies can raise rates now for things like building new power systems it happened here for a nuclear power plant. Do realize what they will do if they have to drop say billions of dollars on Green Tech they will drive rates fare higher than the 25% increase we are getting hit with now.

Capitalism is not always fair I think the government should prevent fraud but not putting out a technology if they don't want to is not fraud.

Well nobody believes we can quit fossil fuels cold turkey and go alternative, but if we're not cleaning our act up as we go we're screwed. Cleaner coal combustion with fewer emissions exists. If we get out of recession or worse but ultimately tip the global balance, nothing else we do will make a damn difference, unless what we do includes making underground cities like in the Matrix or colonies on other planets.

And maybe that's our problem; that the government can't seize intellectual property. In times of dire need, perhaps we need to change that. If someone is sitting on technology that can get us out of all this, then we have to ask if we're better off feeling dirty or not surviving.

For me the question is obvious. I'd rather remain standing with my honor tarnished then not at all. Morality doesn't mean shit if you're dead.

Offline Odos

Re: Global Warming and the Green Revolution
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2008, 06:20:53 AM »
Excellent point and example - although I think Caeli's graph further up the thread shows that we have made a significant impact in the CO2 levels, based on geologic data.  Weather is a freakish thing, though, as Lorenz discovered.  Never know what impact a change will have down the line.

Exactly my point, I don't dispute that humans as a whole are having an impact on CO2 what worries me is that we don't know what the effects of that impact are. Some time ago I came across an article about the suns size and radiant energy. Can't recall the exact details or where I saw it but the one thing I do remember was that they concluded the sun is now up to 25% hotter and a good deal larger than when the Earth first formed. So why has the temps at the Earths surface not soared. According to the article, they got a clue after 9/11 when all air traffic was grounded in the US. According to their figures as the air quality improved due to no planes flying etc the ground temps rose. The conclusion they arrived at was that all the shite we are putting in the atmosphere is actually helping to maintain a reasonable temp by reducing the radiant solar energy. Is this the case ? I don't know but it's enough to cause more than a little doubt in my mind as to if we actually know whats happening and can react in a correct manner.


And maybe that's our problem; that the government can't seize intellectual property. In times of dire need, perhaps we need to change that. If someone is sitting on technology that can get us out of all this, then we have to ask if we're better off feeling dirty or not surviving.

For me the question is obvious. I'd rather remain standing with my honor tarnished then not at all. Morality doesn't mean shit if you're dead.

That statement is a very, very complex and emotive area. Who decides what is in everyones interest ? who decides what can be "taken" and what can't ? Who decides what needs to be done and what doesn't.

Offline The Overlord

Re: Global Warming and the Green Revolution
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2008, 06:46:43 AM »



That statement is a very, very complex and emotive area. Who decides what is in everyones interest ? who decides what can be "taken" and what can't ? Who decides what needs to be done and what doesn't.

I agree completely. But I am compelled to ask this: If someone is sitting on a cure for most cancers or a method of cheap and clean electricity by improved fuel cells or nuclear fusion, do we have the right to take it and use it?

When the common good, perhaps even survival is at stake, I say yes. Forcibly if need be. Perhaps it's because I find such avarice an alien concept...if I possessed such knowledge, absolutely I would share it to help people and the quality of life.

I believe in compensating the possessor, but withholding for purposes of pure greed and business should not be allowed. Know that I understand something of the nature of business to hoard helpful knowledge; I've experienced it in a way that's affected my family. In fact, it's directly responsible for the loss of my father, so yes I have intense feelings about this. I have a very strong hatred of the business world.



Offline Odos

Re: Global Warming and the Green Revolution
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2008, 07:11:50 AM »
I agree completely. But I am compelled to ask this: If someone is sitting on a cure for most cancers or a method of cheap and clean electricity by improved fuel cells or nuclear fusion, do we have the right to take it and use it?

In the example above I would have to say no. What you are actually advocating is the law of the jungle, ie might is right. I want, I take because I can and I want it.

I agree avarice is horrible, but unfortunately a lot of the people in the world are seduced by it, in any number of ways. And it is not only in the business world.

I believe in compensating the possessor, but withholding for purposes of pure greed and business should not be allowed. Know that I understand something of the nature of business to hoard helpful knowledge; I've experienced it in a way that's affected my family. In fact, it's directly responsible for the loss of my father, so yes I have intense feelings about this. I have a very strong hatred of the business world.

I too have had bad personal dealings with the business world, though not to the extent of a fatality. I did however lose my son due to exactly the same type of reasons you imply, in my case it was the government and not business that was the culprit. Which is why I asked the question earlier "does anyone actually believe truly and honestly that there is any difference in the motives of business and that of government ?"

Offline The Overlord

Re: Global Warming and the Green Revolution
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2008, 03:49:03 PM »
In the example above I would have to say no. What you are actually advocating is the law of the jungle, ie might is right. I want, I take because I can and I want it.



No, actually I'm not. In the examples I gave, it's more about the common good.

Excuse me for sounding heartless, but if someone has something the community needs in terms of knowledge, there is NO excuse for hoarding it. Like I said, I'd rather seize it and feel dirty about it later, knowing I helped the common good.


...


Nix that, in fact I wouldn't feel dirty about it at all. If some greedy SOB is hoarding a cure from cancer, we're perfectly justified in seizing it so it can be put to use.

Now, I'm sure this will countered with the argument of two wrongs don't make a right, but in my experience, what I know is this: One good screw deserves another. If you're sitting on something that can save lives, you are screwing people over, and you deserve anything you get.

Being as I lost my father to cancer brought on as a direct result of the asbestos industry hiding knowledge that could save lives, and since two of my aunts are facing cancer right now, hell yes I'd say take a cure if someone was sitting on it. Hell yes, I'd shoot the mother fracker myself if that's what it took.


Offline Zakharra

Re: Global Warming and the Green Revolution
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2008, 12:42:59 AM »
No, actually I'm not. In the examples I gave, it's more about the common good.

Excuse me for sounding heartless, but if someone has something the community needs in terms of knowledge, there is NO excuse for hoarding it. Like I said, I'd rather seize it and feel dirty about it later, knowing I helped the common good.


...


Nix that, in fact I wouldn't feel dirty about it at all. If some greedy SOB is hoarding a cure from cancer, we're perfectly justified in seizing it so it can be put to use.

Now, I'm sure this will countered with the argument of two wrongs don't make a right, but in my experience, what I know is this: One good screw deserves another. If you're sitting on something that can save lives, you are screwing people over, and you deserve anything you get.

Being as I lost my father to cancer brought on as a direct result of the asbestos industry hiding knowledge that could save lives, and since two of my aunts are facing cancer right now, hell yes I'd say take a cure if someone was sitting on it. Hell yes, I'd shoot the mother fracker myself if that's what it took.



 Then I seriously hope you never get the governmental authority to ever follow through. What you are advocating is murder pure and simple. What they did is not murder. Unethical? Hells yeah, but not murder. Not by any legal definition.

  It's better to make it profitable for them to make the product than to seize it. Confiscation, even for the 'public good', is an extremely slippery slope and can be used for anything.

Offline The Overlord

Re: Global Warming and the Green Revolution
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2008, 01:23:23 AM »
Then I seriously hope you never get the governmental authority to ever follow through. What you are advocating is murder pure and simple. What they did is not murder. Unethical? Hells yeah, but not murder. Not by any legal definition.

  It's better to make it profitable for them to make the product than to seize it. Confiscation, even for the 'public good', is an extremely slippery slope and can be used for anything.


In the case of my father, he and countless others paid with their lives. Because the industries that hid the truth hid the risks, and over the years a silent killer crept up and got a lot of them. That WAS murder, and I won't deny I've entertained doing something rash over it. Read up on Mesothelioma and get back to me, and you'll learn this isn't random cancer.


In my previous example, yes it's murder, but then again if someone is withholding a cure for a terminal disease, that is murder as well. So then like they love to say in Star Trek, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one. In such a case, we're perfectly justified in taking that cure by any means.

Forgive me for sounding so jaded and furious, but I won't apologize. In the past decade I've seen what evil and greed is.

Offline Caeli

Re: Global Warming and the Green Revolution
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2008, 05:28:39 AM »
Heyla. :)

Just a gentle reminder to you three (Overlord, Zakharra, and Odos) that this topic is not about avarice, ethics of the business world, justifications of murder, or cancer. Please stay on topic (global warming and/or the green revolution), or start a new topic.

Offline Odos

Re: Global Warming and the Green Revolution
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2008, 11:04:57 AM »
Caeli you are of course correct and to LisiusChase and anyone else reading this thread I apologise for my part in the digression.  :-[

Offline LisiusChaseTopic starter

Re: Global Warming and the Green Revolution
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2008, 12:38:46 PM »
No need to apologize. Sorry I haven't been as diligent to responding to this thread myself.
I'm glad it took up as much interest as it did.

Offline The Overlord

Re: Global Warming and the Green Revolution
« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2008, 05:56:59 PM »
Heyla. :)

Just a gentle reminder to you three (Overlord, Zakharra, and Odos) that this topic is not about avarice, ethics of the business world, justifications of murder, or cancer. Please stay on topic (global warming and/or the green revolution), or start a new topic.

Fair enough...just be mindful that greed and avarice have made sure we're not as far along in the green revolution as we should be, especially here in the States.  ;)

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Re: Global Warming and the Green Revolution
« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2008, 06:24:55 PM »
My brother finds the idea of organic vegetables laughable, but for me the bottom line is that I don't want unnecessary chemicals in my body.  The high yield argument doesn't take into account the high price to agriculture, to the soil, or the long term affects of factory farming.  I think that our culture would benefit tremendously from being mindful of the full lifecycle of any process.  If the main concern is immediate gratification, factory farming seems fine and good, but with scrutiny many negative impacts are revealed.

Offline The Overlord

Re: Global Warming and the Green Revolution
« Reply #47 on: December 11, 2008, 12:43:05 AM »


What is laughable about it, provided the organic agriculture industry is truly cutting out all the bad stuff? What is actually funny, we call it organic food, but it's really how food was grown and raised in the vast majority of some 10,000 years or more of global cultivation.

Makes the case on how tainted the modern industry (and our perceptions of it) are when actual agriculture gets a funny name to distinguish it. I go for this stuff whenever I can, and I definitely buy only organic ground beef now, since it's the most handled and processed meat we regularly consume.

Some people will argue it's too pricey, but they're missing the point: Eat better food, that money is really an investment in your own body.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Global Warming and the Green Revolution
« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2008, 07:25:14 AM »

What is laughable about it, provided the organic agriculture industry is truly cutting out all the bad stuff? What is actually funny, we call it organic food, but it's really how food was grown and raised in the vast majority of some 10,000 years or more of global cultivation.

Makes the case on how tainted the modern industry (and our perceptions of it) are when actual agriculture gets a funny name to distinguish it. I go for this stuff whenever I can, and I definitely buy only organic ground beef now, since it's the most handled and processed meat we regularly consume.

Some people will argue it's too pricey, but they're missing the point: Eat better food, that money is really an investment in your own body.


Except that, as I pointed out, there are people growing organic who can't afford the certification saying that they're organic.  Farmer's markets are cheaper and support the small farm instead of the 'factory farmers'.

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Re: Global Warming and the Green Revolution
« Reply #49 on: December 11, 2008, 07:33:21 AM »
I go to one farmer's market on Saturday and a different one on Sunday, when they're running :)  It's nice to get to know the people who grow the food that nurtures my family.