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Author Topic: Gender in gaming.  (Read 6822 times)

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Offline Aethereal

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #75 on: April 09, 2016, 03:12:32 AM »
Quote
Suggesting their response to inappropriate behavior is in any way related to the cause of that inappropriate behavior is pretty textbook victim-blaming.
       I don't quite understand what you're getting at here? Obviously, the *reaction* (being post the fact) did not cause the inappropriate behavior, and no one has said that "they called it upon herself by doing X", which is what I consider the most standard example of victim-blaming.
        What people have been saying is that if something like that happens, you should act in response afterwards, with you being either the victim, or the witnesses ... basically everyone who doesn't approve. A reaction won't undo what happened, but it *can* help prevent future similar occasions, meaning that in the end, the overall amount of victims will be less. If nothing happens, the assailants will come to expect no repercussions.

Offline Far eyes

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #76 on: April 09, 2016, 04:24:42 AM »
Well that provides a bit more context to the whole thing.

Just leaving everything ells out for now
Quote
"white male terrorism"
"noun
the unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims."

Yeeey lets get the really brad brush, and just slap everybody with it. I wish they would stop with this shit its not helpful to anybody and in detracts from the actual topic.

Now back to the topic.

Quote
Until now.


BULL SHIT, there was always some issues around it just like any other social issue it did not just fall out of the fucking sky now. I started gaming in 90s it was a subject then as well as it kept being an occasional subject all trough out my time in the gaming club i helped out in/i guess sort of worked in. It was and is an issue along with race, nationalism*, people just being assholes to each other and tempers flaring up. I fucking hate this myth that this shit is somehow new, it is not a special thing to this generation or time.

*maybe more relevant in my neck of the woods, i am not sure how much it would crop up in the us
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 05:14:39 AM by Far eyes »

Offline Renegade Vile

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #77 on: April 09, 2016, 06:30:58 AM »
And now it's hit greater media.

Looking at what else the author wrote, I'm pretty sure what kind of "journalist" I'm dealing with here, without even having to read that article.

Quote
geek culture's long history of harassment

*sighs* This is bad for my blood pressure.

Offline Silk

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #78 on: April 10, 2016, 04:40:03 AM »
I always find the concept of victim-blaming a interesting yet silly one. Which is also only appears to be applied to very select levels of cases.

I mean, don't get me wrong in some cases it's absolutely a thing. But by the same If I was to walk into a building site unsupervised and without proper safety equipment, I don't then get to sue to construction company then blow off any attempt at my own actions as victim blaming, Does it suck that it happens, absolutely, was I aware of the risks when going into the situation and/or exasibated the situation with my own actions, potentially, and it's not something that should be brushed off. We are fully functioning adults that understand consequences and responsibilities for our actions or lack thereof.

It sucks, but jeez come on, I've seen situations where people go full obnoxious "I'm the only gay in the villiage" special snowflake, then kick up a fuss about how they don't feel included, then when challenged with their conduct its "You're only saying that because I'm -------". Sometimes it's not about what you are, and is entirely down to who you are and how you conduct yourself. As for this article, it's so painfully one sidedly written that it's almost impossible to believe. Especially given the potential connotations of what could happen if it is a false claim.

My brother was once falsely accused of rape, because a girl he was with lied about her age and was in fact below the legal age, which also meant she shouldn't of been in the night club in question. When her parents found out she quickly called on the "He raped me" card on social media and later on the police, thankfully he was aquitted of charges given the curcumstances. But not before he was attacked several times in the street by do-gooder vigilanties that believed her out of hand one attack of which leaving him in hospital.


Offline Sho

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #79 on: April 14, 2016, 12:16:22 AM »
This is the first time I’ve ever been this disappointed in E’s discussions and understanding of issues. :/ Maybe it’s just me, maybe I’m being sensitive, and maybe I’m reading too much into the comments above, but…here’s what I’m getting from it:

You guys think that the gaming community has NO problem with its culture when it comes to sexism.
If a woman is harassed, she is obliged to stand up for herself and cannot count on anyone to help her.
Men shouldn’t jump in and defend a woman who doesn’t defend herself, because they shouldn’t put themselves at risk.

For those of you who keep saying “well, I haven’t experienced this!”…that’s fabulous. I’m really super thrilled that your experience with the gaming community has been amazing and that you never had any issues.

Sucks that you don’t believe that some people do, though.

I’m one of those people.

I matured young: at thirteen or fourteen I had what my local game shop owner said was a “bangin’ body”. I was a 34C, 26 waist, 32 hips. I was also shy and a huge nerd and generally pretty scared of dating, but hey, I looked like a girl who was down to fuck, right?

That’s how a good deal of the gamers treated me.

I had a guy reach under my chair and try to finger me. I’ve had multiple guys slap my ass or brush their crotches up against me. I’ve been hit on both awkwardly and charmingly, and I’ve been asked to play the healer because ‘that’s a girl’s role!’. I literally got so tired of having guys stare at my breasts or make snide comments about women that I stopped playing all tabletop, RPG or fantasy-based games until a few weeks ago. Why didn’t I leave? Because when things were good, they were amazing, and I didn’t really fit in anywhere else. So I put up with behavior then that I wouldn’t dream of putting up with now. At that point in my life, I wasn’t mature enough to really know how to snap back verbally or physically…and my guy friends just shrugged off the behavior and pointed out that they weren’t like that.

Yeah, not all the guy were terrible. Maybe 95% of the time things were great, but that 5% was so fucking awful and no one stood up (and I was scared to stand up or fight back because I didn’t want to get hurt or have people hate me, and I didn’t know how) to help me. I’ve worked in multiple industries, including in bars, and frankly the worst experiences I’ve ever had were in gaming situations, mostly because no one ever stepped in to help.

Here’s a question I’ve always had…if ‘not all the gaming guys are awful’, then why don’t they instead say “holy shit, that’s so fucking terrible that you were treated that way! I can’t believe that! We’re going to make sure no one deals with that and we’re going to tell the whole group that things like that aren’t acceptable!”? Instead, all I ever heard was “…well, we’re sorry that some guys suck, but y’know, it’s just how it is, so…”.

I genuinely DON’T believe all guys who game are terrible. I think it’s a really small group, but that group REALLY SUCKS. I just wish that the onus wasn’t 100% on women to stand up, and that some of those ‘not so bad’ gamer guys would jump in as well. The ones at my current office would, but none of the ones where I group up would…and that’s really fucking sad.

Anyways. A bit rambling, but I had to point out that multiple women have had REALLY shitty experiences in these groups, and that they CAN be super unwelcoming. I’m just really disappointed that people here don’t seem to believe that.

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Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #80 on: April 14, 2016, 01:00:45 AM »
The problem with people saying 'All ______ aren't like that' is that it changes the focus of the discussion.  The problem is that some gamers are like that.  Otherwise, incidents like this wouldn't happen at all.  The question we should be discussing is 'How do we get them to stop being like that?'

Offline Skynet

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #81 on: April 14, 2016, 01:38:21 AM »
I'm sorry for what you went through, Sho. And you're not being sensitive; it's disheartening to see people shut down and insist that claims of harassment and sexism are overblown, or insist that "boths sides are just as bad" as though victims are as much at fault as the jerkasses.

I will admit that I haven't talked about this as much elsewhere on the part of seeing how vicious some of these toxic gamers can be on this, in that I fear for myself and my friends in that I've seen some of the worst nurse a vendetta and go after folks even tangentially tied to a gaming group. My profile on E is more or less disconnected from the rest of the Internet, so I feel more at liberty to talk here.

I can offer you little more than sympathy and hopes that things improve.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 01:52:23 AM by Skynet »

Offline Aethereal

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #82 on: April 14, 2016, 02:04:40 AM »
The problem with people saying 'All ______ aren't like that' is that it changes the focus of the discussion.  The problem is that some gamers are like that.  Otherwise, incidents like this wouldn't happen at all.  The question we should be discussing is 'How do we get them to stop being like that?'
      That actually boils down to what I pointed out earlier: if someone attacks a group you belong to (let alone a group you have personally never seen behaving this way), then most people's first reaction is to retaliate. By stating "___ are like that!", you will automatically have targeted everyone who belongs to the group, and thus, "No, we aren't" is pretty much inevitably the reaction you will get.

    ___, indeed, aren't like that. This one person was like that. Or those five people were like that. It's this person, or those five people, who are at fault, not ___ as such. You don't need to take care of ___, because the overwhelming majority of them are, indeed, decent people. You need to take care of those select few who are not, independent of what their hobbies are or are not. There are plenty of people who are also assholes just like that, but don't belong to ___. They are the exact same problem.

Offline Sho

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #83 on: April 14, 2016, 02:54:58 AM »
Here's the thing: No, not ALL gamers are like that. No, not ALL men are like that. But ENOUGH gamers are that the men who aren't maybe should lash out at the men who are, rather than the women who point out the inappropriate behavior.

Just to be clear, Shienvien, is your argument really: "Not all male gamers are bad people, so when you relay the bad experiences you've had, you need to couch your language to make it clear that those abusers were only a small subsection of the group because the good guys might get confused that you're accusing them"?

Based on your experience, male gamers don't exhibit sexism or bad behavior. Based on my experience, there is a notable portion of male gamers who do, and it is a larger portion of men than I have found in other areas of my life (and I work in tech). I think that the hobby and the generally male-dominated culture does have some effect on how females are treated in some of the groups, but if you don't think it's relevant and you think all sexism is equal across groups, hobbies, and professions, then that's your prerogative. 

Offline Aethereal

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #84 on: April 14, 2016, 03:24:22 AM »
       In my experience, sexism is indeed no more prevalent in gaming than anywhere else, yes (I personally have seen more of it in other places, but strangely not in my work environment), and men are no more likely to go pulling that kind of stunts than women.

       And there is a very distinct difference between stating X happened at location Y at time Z and speaking of "white male terrorism in gaming" like the articles linked earlier in the thread. The latter inches into the realm of senseless hate-speech which does good to exactly none.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #85 on: April 14, 2016, 05:51:16 AM »
I find sexism to be pretty prevalent in the gaming community.  Fortunately a gaming store did open up here that goes out of its way to make women feel comfortable inside the store and the owner has thrown out more than one customer for inappropriate actions and comments.  Before then I refused to go into the gaming store after a few incidents there.

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Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #86 on: April 14, 2016, 09:24:52 AM »
So, what do we do about the toxic gamers? 

Offline Far eyes

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #87 on: April 14, 2016, 09:32:47 AM »
The gaming club i helped in and was a part of for meany years delta with them by talking to them. In a lot of cases its not actually something they "mean" its often something stupid they just say. And this is not purely on sexism this is that, racism and nationalism the later is what we mostly death with. For the duration i was there, for cases i am aware of only like a hand full of people needed to be told that "Look you arent welcome back, leave now" but confronting people with the weight of "WE this gaming club" was often times enough to adjust behavior. And i do not mean this in shaming or an aggressive manner. Really often times its the most important thing that it is known that "XYZ is not ok here"



Offline Avis habilis

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #88 on: April 14, 2016, 09:34:59 AM »
So, what do we do about the toxic gamers? 

What the owner in Pumpkin Seeds' example did. Expel them from the group. Make it unmistakably clear that nobody is going to put up with their resentment-fueled intimidation campaign. Pull that sort of stunt, even once, & you're out. No save.

Offline Aethereal

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #89 on: April 14, 2016, 09:35:19 AM »
So, what do we do about the toxic gamers?
      The exact same we do with toxic anyone. They either behave, or the door is that way.

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Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #90 on: April 14, 2016, 09:48:51 AM »
Next question - why isn't this being done often enough that the toxic gamers get a freaking clue?

Offline Avis habilis

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #91 on: April 14, 2016, 10:00:41 AM »
Because too many of the people in the position to eject them either support harassment or don't want to rock the boat because they've bought into the line that calling someone out as a harasser is exactly as bad as inflicting harassment because both sides! Why, it's almost as if it were a cultural problem.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #92 on: April 14, 2016, 10:11:14 AM »
The owner in particular did a few things to make the shop friendlier in general.  First was the level of professionalism.  Every worker there wore a uniform shirt, remained either at the counter or working and maintained an engaged but professional manner.  The store was well lit and cleaned regularly.  Bathrooms were cleaned, there was a diaper changing board for the restroom and a little scent basket.  He kept cameras in the store for security and he also made that sure everyone picked up after themselves.  If someone took down scenery for a wargame, they were expected to put it back.  Card gamers were expected to pick up their newly purchased wrappings and boxes.  Roleplayers were not allowed to “borrow” books from the shelf for rule reference.  So that level of professionalism and of actually owning a business went a long way.

That leads to my answering of the second question.  Aside from this store and a couple others, one which was a textbook store the employees convinced the owner to sell gaming material, the gaming stores seem run by enthusiasts that want to make a living doing what they love.  The problem is the business is treated second to the socializing and playing aspect of the store.  Therefore when someone is chasing off female customers with rude comments, making a woman feel uncomfortable in the store or in general acting up there is a hesitancy to chase off a “friend” or “regular.”  Such people treat the store as their local watering hole, make themselves at home and pretty much grow roots.  Others consider this person part of the status quo and are reluctant to disrupt the peace of their hobby store, after all they are there to relax and have some fun.  "Jimmy didn't mean anything."  "Stop being dramatic, just like a woman."  "We're just having some fun."  The entire store then gets treated as a boy’s club unless someone breaks that up.

I do not think gamers want to insult people or make them uncomfortable.  Still if the atmosphere is there than those same gamers will try to fit into the status quo, let peer pressure guide their comments or at least keep their silence.  As Far Eyes pointed out, peer pressure is often enough to change someone’s behavior.  Used right that would be all that is required.  The store owner putting a hand on someone’s shoulder and shaking his head, a respected war gamer telling someone to show respect or something of that nature would be enough. All communities have a pecking order and leadership.  Problem is when the leadership is silent or are the ones leading the ridicule. 

Offline Aethereal

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #93 on: April 14, 2016, 10:12:05 AM »
Next question - why isn't this being done often enough that the toxic gamers get a freaking clue?
     Considering that I've neither experienced or witnessed it, it can perhaps be assumed that some places *do* do it often enough... Safe to say, if I were to ever witness someone pulling those kinds of stunts, I'd step up, the same way I have with any non-gaming related incident.
      I reckon it's to do with people either not noticing or not caring, though. With those, a little information and no needless antagonization of entire groups should go a long way. Again, if a person is problematic, it's that person, not whatever might be even vaguely associated with them. (For the matter, I'll also object to statements like "all muslims are terrorists," "all black people are criminals" which are wrong in roughly the same fashion.)

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Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #94 on: April 14, 2016, 11:23:35 AM »
I don't agree with the 'all X are Y' attitude either, which is why I said 'some'.  We've agreed on that.

Moving forward - I've seen gaming stores fail for exactly the reasons that Pumpkin Seeds pointed out.  Waaaay back when I lived in the NoVA area, there was a guy I knew who ran a store and treated it like his own private kingdom instead of a business.  Didn't help that the 'king' was a jerk of the first order.  He was an 'equal-opportunity' jerk as well.  If you were a stranger to the 'crowd' and raised any amount of fuss, you weren't worth his time.

Personally, I think that there could be some advantage to approaching this from the 'business' end of things.  Pointing out to a store-keeper that a particular troublemaker is driving away potential customers avoids the 'all X are Y' aspect (because dudebro over there is the issue, not 'society') and gives a reason that even the most socially inept can follow:  Dudebro is costing you money.

Offline Tairis

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #95 on: April 14, 2016, 07:01:28 PM »
Because too many of the people in the position to eject them either support harassment or don't want to rock the boat because they've bought into the line that calling someone out as a harasser is exactly as bad as inflicting harassment because both sides! Why, it's almost as if it were a cultural problem.

Or, far more likely than a cultural conspiracy of sexism, it's the simple fact that the majority of people hate confrontation. It's why the more blatant abusers are able to get away with much of what they do because most individuals actively avoid uncomfortable confrontations. Their animal brain goes 'someone will say something, I don't need to' or some other justification that allows them to ignore the problem. We as a species do it all the time and it doesn't have anything to do with endorsing harassment. We simply live in a time and age where we have become unaccustomed to direct conflict with people in our social circles. We'd much rather talk shit about them on facebook or make passive-aggressive comments.

Oniya is correct, though, in that this situations should always be brought up to business owners and made very clear: I am not comfortable shopping here and spending money here because of how one of your customers is acting towards me. Enlightened self interest might not be as noble, but it's a lot more effective. It also removes the person in authority from making a moral decision to a financial one, again enlightened self interest.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #96 on: April 14, 2016, 07:18:02 PM »
The financial motive would work if the main motivation of the business owner is to make money.  As pointed out earlier, this may not necessarily be the case.  Also the owner has to believe or at least understand that by maintaining a presence with women there is money to be generated.  So this also falls on customers to either back up the store owner or walk out if this sort of behavior is happening.

Offline Tairis

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #97 on: April 14, 2016, 11:15:52 PM »
The financial motive would work if the main motivation of the business owner is to make money.  As pointed out earlier, this may not necessarily be the case.  Also the owner has to believe or at least understand that by maintaining a presence with women there is money to be generated.  So this also falls on customers to either back up the store owner or walk out if this sort of behavior is happening.

Quite true, and if they do that it will quickly become a financial issue for the store owner. In the end its always up to the individual to step up.

Offline Sethala

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #98 on: April 21, 2016, 03:47:57 PM »
Can anyone identify the upside-down board game in the header photo?

Looks like Pandemic.  Cooperative game about treating and curing diseases.

Offline Wajin

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #99 on: May 14, 2016, 07:19:20 PM »
Let me preface this by saying that I was an avid supporter of the PART of GamerGate that genuinely was concerned with the blatant disregard for journalistic ethics in the Gaming Media. During that time I went out of my way, often to the chagrin of people I knew, to call out the harassers and the "Misogynists" and I use the word reluctantly, as the country many members of my father see as their ancestral homeland has misogyny codified as law.

I hate this debate, I really, really do, first of all, because the groups I've been playing with, and the stores and events I've gone to has only had these problems a tiny amount of times, and when problems have come up they've been dealt with swiftly, and harshly. I don't know ANY TG gamer of ANY kind who has ever not stood up when someone's being a pig or an asshole.

Is it horrible what the author went through, if it is indeed a single person, and not a collection of experiences as has been suggested by some. But as I've also heard people in this thread say, it should not reflect on the vast majority of us.

I will end this by saying how disgusted, and yes that feeling I felt, at the use of the word Terrorism. No matter how grave the situation has been for you, or for a small group of people, it's not fucking terrorism, and using a word like that, with a clearly defined meaning. What is worse, is the fact that the author CHOSE to post this piece a mere day after the Brussels attacks.... and dares to use that word...