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Author Topic: Gender in gaming.  (Read 6820 times)

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Offline Skynet

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #50 on: April 07, 2016, 12:06:04 AM »
It was something the developers agreed with, and I can totally understand.

When playing the original I hated it when Khalid said "Click on somebody your own size!" at times when you clicked him. It felt utterly bizarre and out of place for an in-character speech in a fantasy world. And he didn't come off as a wacky guy or dude with "existential insight" to make 4th wall breaking, at least from my brief playthrough.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #51 on: April 07, 2016, 12:20:48 AM »
See, stuff like that I can get, and laugh at, because it's blatantly 4th-wall breaking meta, poking fun at the medium itself - the games I play have a long history of meta-jokes like that, even if it's not fitting in-universe. The proposed Minsc comment, though, is too in-universe to be blatant meta-awareness, but too OOC for Minsc; trying to justify it IC while maintaining the 'wink wink nudge' meta-critical message just makes it come across as awkward to my brain.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 12:21:56 AM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Far eyes

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #52 on: April 07, 2016, 03:47:43 AM »
Its a poorly done game, this is not the mountain to die on for anybody nobody will care in about a week.

Offline Renegade Vile

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #53 on: April 07, 2016, 03:58:46 AM »
I just had this slide across my desk so to speak. I would like to know what people think. It is quite the read for someone very much on the privileged side of this situation.

http://latining.tumblr.com/post/141567276944/tabletop-gaming-has-a-white-male-terrorism-problem

My personal thoughts, when a cop is telling you "Find another hobby" to keep yourself safe, this world is in need of some quite self reflection time.

I know plenty of male gamers that have no issue with girls in their hobbies. Of course, I don't live in the US, so I have no idea what the situation is like there. But there are two women who've been playing Magic for years at a local game store I go to. They never have any issue. Their gender is never brought up, they are not treated differently (meaning they are neither treated worse or -better-). They just want to play Magic and they can. Same for a woman that's in a regular role playing group.

As I said, I can't extend this experience to beyond that game store and stories I've heard of similar scenarios across Flanders, but I still cannot help but feel we're talking about a small number of people. I mean, the sheer number of people I know online who consistently play role playing games, card games and miniature games of a  non-male gender that never seem to come across these issues makes me think part of the problem might be on her. Not because she's female, but because of something else? Conjecture though, because I have no facts or figures to back this up.

Articles like these just always leave me scratching my head since I have yet to meet a man who acts like this and isn't immediately scorned and despised by other men around him.

Online RedRose

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #54 on: April 07, 2016, 10:10:27 AM »
I'm not surprised at all about the cop. In a certain European country they basically told me that certain jobs are better left to plain ladies who won't attract stalkers and weirdos (and it was a very normal job, think waitressing or hairdresser).

Offline Cassandraks

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #55 on: April 07, 2016, 10:22:56 AM »
That part I get kind of. But it is the fact that everyone she talked to, multiple cops, bosses, male people that might be able to help what so ever. Hell I don't think she even mentioned talking to any female help. It was basically insinuating that no male what so ever would help. That they just basically said shut up and go back to the kitchen. I am sure there are idiots like that, but so many in one area. I do kind of find it hard to believe.

And I don't know about the rest of you, if this stuff was happening to me especially so many times. One I would be changing the way I am in those places, being a lot more cautious around men in places like that. And two, I would not be just stopping at the sexist jerks who are telling me it is my fault. If anyone ever did to me the things she was writing, they would never any longer even consider doing anything like that again to a women once I was done with them.

Offline Far eyes

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #56 on: April 07, 2016, 11:37:57 AM »
And I don't know about the rest of you, if this stuff was happening to me especially so many times

I think its mentioned its not all her, some are stories from different people and i am incredibly tempted to go with an old fisherman tale but lets just take her at her word.

I am going to leave the story about the spiked drink out front because that is one i do have trouble with, in details and in follow up both

The thing that bothers me in all this is that in every case "she" is incredibly passive. I know 3 female gamers well enough to make an educated guess at what would happen, one of them works in the military police in my country if something like that happened to her i am more or less sure there would be injuries. That and i do not think tubby would start shit with her. The two of the others are both the kind that can put anybody down a peg verbally if provoked. I can not imagine either of them standing around going "oh gosh" I dont want to slide into victim blaming but for fuck sake do something.

No idea maybe i am confrontational, maybe its a national trait sort of its not necessarily always good but i just can not imagine in almost any of these situations just standing there.     

Offline Avis habilis

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #57 on: April 07, 2016, 11:40:48 AM »
I dont want to slide into victim blaming but for fuck sake do something.

Then don't immediately proceed to blame her for not stopping it.

... part of the problem might be on her. Not because she's female, but because of something else?

I'm curious to know what behaviors you think she might be exhibiting that would justify rape threats, death threats & physical assaults.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 11:44:33 AM by Avis habilis »

Offline Far eyes

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #58 on: April 07, 2016, 11:42:16 AM »
Then don't immediately proceed to blame her for not stopping it.

Its the flow of the story ware there is no action from her side, it means either the story is incomplete or she did noting. 

Offline Avis habilis

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #59 on: April 07, 2016, 11:47:26 AM »
Its the flow of the story ware there is no action from her side, it means either the story is incomplete or she did noting.

So it's her fault for not immediately confronting a group of more physically powerful individuals who have already demonstrated hostile intent. Got it.

Offline Cassandraks

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #60 on: April 07, 2016, 11:50:46 AM »
Far Eyes I do have to agree with you on that, I hate to say it. But you see it so much on E and other sites like this. That women just deal with so much, they don't make waves even though they are getting offended or bothered by a jerk. I have heard so many stories from people who are on another site I frequent, which is less about adult RPing and more just about RPing. They were going to change things about the adult part, making it more difficult and possibly have to pay to post on there. Me and several others fought for that not to happen, because it is so much safer a space to RP adult then it is on strictly adult sites. Not that there isn't a chance of it happening on the other site, but it is so much harder to be done.

But just the stories of what I have heard women put up with. For me, it is a hell no situation. You start harassing, insulting, making me uncomfortable. I don't give you a chance to change. You are done, you are gone. You are not worth my time in any way shape or form, and I have also seen even with that they don't tend to learn from it.

I have always had the feeling, and it may color me at being not on the side of the women sitting and saying you poor thing. While the stuff shouldn't be happening period, being passive about it being done to you is in the end on you. If I was to see it happen in front of me, I would do something about it. But as women anymore, less talk and whining about how we should be treated. And more this is what you get if you ever treat me in a disrespectful way is truly needed. And I know there are people are not confrontational, but there are other ways then just taking it to handle things.

Offline Blythe

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #61 on: April 07, 2016, 11:51:47 AM »
I think its a possibility that she might be taking the stories of other women who went through this and saying that all of that happened to her when in reaity maybe only 2 or 3 of them are her stories.

I think its mentioned its not all her, some are stories from different people and i am incredibly tempted to go with an old fisherman tale but lets just take her at her word.

Is there anywhere in the article itself that explicitly says this was the manner in which it was written, though?

This is probably not a good assumption to make without something to back it up. Believe or disbelieve her experiences, but trying to twist it to the point of saying "these are stories from a lot of people" is a rather large leap.

Offline Far eyes

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #62 on: April 07, 2016, 11:57:43 AM »
So it's her fault for not immediately confronting a group of more physically powerful individuals who have already demonstrated hostile intent. Got it.

No i did not say that.


Offline LisztesFerenc

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #63 on: April 07, 2016, 12:03:20 PM »
Is there anywhere in the article itself that explicitly says this was the manner in which it was written, though?

This is probably not a good assumption to make without something to back it up. Believe or disbelieve her experiences, but trying to twist it to the point of saying "these are stories from a lot of people" is a rather large leap.

  I assumed these were the experiences of multiple woman as well, since they weren't in chronological order. I am interesting in why you would consider such an interpretation a "twist" of the other story however, as that implies it subverts the intention, but I think the problem remains the same, regardless of whether this all have to 1 women or multiple.

Offline Far eyes

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #64 on: April 07, 2016, 12:06:09 PM »
@Cassandraks

Its possible that this is just one of those things that translates poorly, maybe the group i have experience with had just always been very pro active. I honestly do not know, i can to some extent only function off the experience i have. But to some level it always stomps me when i here about people who do noting.

And no this is not about what they should/could have done its the pure inaction that stomps me, because it is not something i know from my personal experience, from those female games around me who i have played with and play with. As i mentioned maybe its the group i hang with.     

Offline Blythe

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #65 on: April 07, 2016, 12:10:40 PM »
  I assumed these were the experiences of multiple woman as well, since they weren't in chronological order. I am interesting in why you would consider such an interpretation a "twist" of the other story however, as that implies it subverts the intention, but I think the problem remains the same, regardless of whether this all have to 1 women or multiple.

I assumed it was her own experiences, that she was cataloging experiences that had happened to her during her life over a long term, since it was not explicitly said there were multiple authors. One vignette revolves around the speaker being 13, another is age-indeterminate at Keycon, two in 2005, one in 2007, one in 2008, two are in 2009, one in 2010, one is in 2015. One vignette is vague, and implies incidents between the years of 2001-2008 (but I wonder if this is a summary including some previous events? I'm not sure I can make that assumption safely, though, so I won't). One is in May but does not specify a year. The narrative style implies something closer to a single person's events that happened over the course of a very long time frame (14+ years).

It's conceivable that there are multiple women's experiences here, but I wouldn't assume it. The reason I don't like that particular assumption is that it does imply the author is being dishonest about representing her personal experiences without evidence to back that up.

That being said, should the article be a collection of women's negative experiences, the overall matter of sexism, harassment, and other major problems does remain, true.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 12:13:40 PM by Blythe »

Offline Cassandraks

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #66 on: April 07, 2016, 12:18:28 PM »
@Far eyes

I am the same way, but I don't tend to consider myself a normal women either. I myself have a hard time with how a lot of females act, but that is for another topic. I am on the side of I get along with men more then I do women. That doesn't mean I don't get along with women, I do very much so. But I tend to have closer male friends, then I do female friends.

I have seen the inaction in real life and online. Thankfully the real life part hasn't been to the more harassment side of things. But it stumps me to, when someone be it male or female won't stand up for themselves in any way. That doesn't help anyone, and yeah it is great when you have someone to stand up for you. But what do you learn from it, what does the person being stood up to learn from it. Not a lot. They learn that they can just get away with their ignorance, and that sucks.

Running around and saying these people are bad is all good and great, but they won't end up stopping unless they learn there is consequence to their actions. Whatever the consequence might be.

Offline WhatLiesAbove

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Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #67 on: April 07, 2016, 04:39:16 PM »
I'm gonna thank the OP for the article. Don't know if anyone else did...but I am.

These kinds of stories happen EVERYWHERE. Replace a comic-con with a high school football game. Replace a tabletop game with a party. Just because we hold dear to our gaming ideals, and think of RP with a sense of purity does not make it so.

I've taken my niece to a few open tabletop games. I've had to stand up for her to a couple of assholes...you know the type. People who are SO INTO the game, that anyone doing something newbie-ish sends them into a rage. Usually they are either adolescent, or older-middle age. Hey, asshole...it's a GAME. Come off like that again to my family, I'll take you out back and show you what isn't a game...namely, my foot up your ass. I'm lucky in a way....she loves tabletop D&D, and I love that we can do that in common (even if it is 4.0). But the few online games I've introduced her too...games that should bring out a more adolescent crowd...has been overflowing with predators.

They are out there, folks. Believe the story or not, even if these things didn't all happen to this woman, they all happened to SOMEONE. That, above all else, needs to be addressed. And don't go blaming the victim. Why are we telling women that they shouldn't be included in the fun? If you are going to say that she should do something different, perhaps you should try it a different way. SHE didn't do anything wrong. SHE went to have fun gaming. HE did something wrong. HE slipped her a roofie, or touched her, or pinned her to the wall, or raped her. None of that is HER fault. It's HIS, and it's the fault of every ball-less asshole who didn't stand up and say "what the fuck, this is WRONG!"

Sorry if it seems like I'm in a tangent. I just...,this kind of thing strikes a chord with me. I have a lot of female friends. More than male. I would say one in three have been sexually assaulted in some manner or another. That's admitted, not reported. It makes me sick, especially now that I have a daughter. One in three, folks. Please think about that.

We shouldn't blame the woman for what she's wearing, or whether or not she's alone without a male companion. You wanna blame someone, look at the assholes who are doing these disgusting things.

Offline Cassandraks

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #68 on: April 07, 2016, 05:20:43 PM »
And no one is, but at the same time this whole idea of I will do what I want and men shouldn't be doing this stuff. Which I agree they shouldn't be, but it isn't a perfect world. And we need to be as women protecting ourselves in some way also. No one should ever have to go through this, I hate that anyone has to go through this. But us as women, should be taking some responsibility to protect ourselves and not just sit there and go something happened I won't bother doing anything about it so when it happens again... That kind of thinking just doesn't work.

I don't know it is all just frustrating anymore, because we are at a time where girls and women are getting more then they ever did. They want to be stronger then they ever have been, but when it counts it is missing. Be smart about things, don't assume everyone else around you is going to be.

Offline Aethereal

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #69 on: April 08, 2016, 01:01:58 AM »
       Okay, I think I'm at least semi-alert now.

       Point one. That has nothing to do with gaming. As someone pointed out above, it could be a bar, or a bus, or a shopping mall, or a concert, whatever. Tying it to gaming seems, well, superfluous, and feels a bit like picking out a completely random group to antagonize.
      Singling out any group that isn't specifically dedicated at putting someone down (in case of sexism see some groups of MRA and radfems) is wrong. It's not the group as such. It's the individuals. Doesn't matter what their unrelated hobbies are. I'm pretty certain there are a few serial killer rapists who love cute animals and like strawberry ice cream. Doesn't mean cute animals or strawberry ice cream induced those tendencies.

      Point two. It seems hyperbolic. I, who I've been in written roleplay for roughly 12 years (I think? I don't seel like calculating atm.) in computer games since the early nineties, and occasionally go to tabletop sittings, have had exactly zero such experiences, nor do I know any female who has face to face. I've had random guys try and ask me out or struck up a random conversation on the street, but none have laid a hand on me, and those who have been a bit more persistent have been annoying at most.
      Ironically, the number one (and practically only) person to make rapey comments at me has been a lesbian woman (I'm pretty certain it was her idea of humor, rather than her meaning those things seriously), and she eventually gave up, but only after I told her repeatedly that I find these jokes rapey rather than amusing, am only interested in male humans, and am eh, "soft dom?" ... nonsubmissive in any case, and essentially stated that if she actually tried something like that in real life, stopping force would be used. That person, by the way, also pissed off one of my male friends with those comments being directed at me. (Just to make it abundantly clear: that was an issue with this one specific person's behavior, not lesbians in general. I'd have reacted the exact same way to any male pulling the same stunts, minus stating that they're the wrong sex for me. I know several perfectly wonderful lesbians, including some who freely joke around about their sexuality and make me laugh while they're at it.)
      It might be it's a thing only in certain regions. It might be it's something about her - not that she's "bringing it it on", but maybe she's simply, say, the cute, petite and busty sort, as opposed to having more model-type beautiful face, being tall and "averagely-endowed." As in, people won't assume she could knock someone to the floor when looking at her. I know my smaller and cuter acquaintance had a couple of odd encounters in Switzerland (and mind, that "small, cute" acquaintance of mine is a semi-professional dancer and actually has more upper arm muscle than I ... it's just her face and height) while I got a couple of random people just talking at me, but not one inappropriate comment. I probably also wandered about on my own quite a bit more.
      And I by no means have "one in three has been sexually harassed" ratio among my female acquaintances. I'd also say that the ratio of general abuse is roughly the same between females and males, but the latter is much less likely to believe that they're being abused. (Indeed ... some do put up with constant abuse and then mutter something about "But I'm not a perfect person, either," when pointed it out. Guy, I have known you for years, I know what you're like, and I tell you, neither you nor any other halfway decent person deserves something like that.)
      So ... yeah. Being where I am, I'm inclined to believe it's not "all the time, everywhere, it *will* happen to you if you are female and go into gaming," kind of deal, but rather a set of occasional, regretful instances. It's terrible that those things happen. It's important that people who do things like that are held accountable. But! It's also important we remember that those people are the rare freaks that occasionally pop up here and there, not the common populace. They are the abnormalities, the ones who don't belong, not the nice guys and gals.

      Point three. Who should protect who and why, and what to fight against. As noted above, it's the individuals who exhibit the tendencies, not the group as such.
      As for keeping the place safe ... that's everyone's job, equally. Everyone should know some self defense, male or female. Good exercise, too. Everyone should take some precautions (I know male aquaintances who're a head taller than I who have had knives held over their throats or ran for their lives ... I myself intervened a knifefight one time, between two individuals larger than I, may I add). Safety is everyone's deal. Everyone should stand up. Everyone should bring such things to light there and then.
      There was this snippet above: " it's the fault of every ball-less asshole who didn't stand up" - but why only? If you don't know where the others stand, and the person undergoing the harassment doesn't show willingness to fight, then how is the person who stood by any worse than the victim who also did nothing? They have as much right to not be beaten to a pulp than anyone else, even if they weren't the original target. Realistically, fighting against two or more people at once is liable to end badly, be you male or female or a head taller than either of the two people fighting you. (It only takes a tiny woman with a sharp knife to kill a bodybuilder, giving the right circumstances.) If there is no danger of being beaten to a pulp, then why did the victim not react? There are plenty of people who have stood up for strangers and then ended up taking all the flak, including from the person they were trying to defend. Or at least have the person deny something ever happened, leaving the defender in a very awkward place.
      Granted, if I ever saw something like that, I'd intervene, much like I intervened the knifefight some eight years ago. I'm inherently a soldier, a protector, a warrior. To fight, to set myself on the frontline is what I naturally do. But those I'm protecting should ideally also show some initiative, some feist. Doesn't matter if they're "small and weak". Strength lies in numbers more than the might of any specific individual (you try fighting if someone is kicking at the backs of your knees). Might not be even be physical. Can be simply words or text, or going behind the corner and calling the police. Going behind the corner and calling the police is fighting, too. It's *doing something* to fix what's wrong. Giving a testimony is fighting. Fighting comes in many forms, including the courage to say "Yes, this happened," or "This person only did so to protect me." Everyone should fight their own way, but everyone should fight what's wrong, be it by might, by word, or just by supporting the people on the frontline.

Offline Shjade

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #70 on: April 08, 2016, 07:09:36 PM »
I think its mentioned its not all her, some are stories from different people and i am incredibly tempted to go with an old fisherman tale but lets just take her at her word.

I am going to leave the story about the spiked drink out front because that is one i do have trouble with, in details and in follow up both

The thing that bothers me in all this is that in every case "she" is incredibly passive. I know 3 female gamers well enough to make an educated guess at what would happen, one of them works in the military police in my country if something like that happened to her i am more or less sure there would be injuries. That and i do not think tubby would start shit with her. The two of the others are both the kind that can put anybody down a peg verbally if provoked. I can not imagine either of them standing around going "oh gosh" I dont want to slide into victim blaming but for fuck sake do something.

No idea maybe i am confrontational, maybe its a national trait sort of its not necessarily always good but i just can not imagine in almost any of these situations just standing there.     

All of this is post-event. Your response to the piece is focusing on what these women did or did not do in response to how they were treated, as if it would somehow retroactively change how they had been treated.

Their reaction (or lack thereof) is irrelevant: whatever was done to them had already been done by the time they could react to it; that's what a reaction is.

Suggesting their response to inappropriate behavior is in any way related to the cause of that inappropriate behavior is pretty textbook victim-blaming. You might want to look into that. And if that's also "the thing that bothers you" about this, not, y'know, the really obvious and myriad examples of inappropriate behavior toward women?

You need to check your priorities.

Offline Far eyes

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #71 on: April 08, 2016, 07:17:56 PM »
You need to check your priorities.

Key, you can check my post after that for a better attempt at what i was attempting for in that post. I am not saying the event was not bad or that it was there fault or brought on by them

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #72 on: April 08, 2016, 07:19:20 PM »
You need to check your priorities.

Careful there, sounds abit too much like "Check your privilege"

No one here is being hostile, and like FE said, I think its a good idea to read the later posts first.

Offline Skynet

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #73 on: April 09, 2016, 12:58:28 AM »

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Gender in gaming.
« Reply #74 on: April 09, 2016, 01:05:51 AM »
Can anyone identify the upside-down board game in the header photo?