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Author Topic: Free Will  (Read 3804 times)

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Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Free Will
« Reply #50 on: November 21, 2008, 09:02:04 PM »
People do still make the choice though, for whatever reason and some do overcome their addiction.

Offline The Overlord

Re: Free Will
« Reply #51 on: November 21, 2008, 09:02:19 PM »
That's why I was using it for the pretty-ultimate-low-end of the scale. 

*nod
 
Best way to beat meth is never to start.

Offline ShrowdedPoet

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #52 on: November 23, 2008, 09:15:21 AM »
Human nature will eventually take over.  Breaking points are different for different people but in the end human nature does take over once the breaking point is reached.  As I am struggling to pay bills and eat and make it through life I have a higher breaking point.  I've been homeless before.  Have I stole food to eat?  Yes.  Have I had sex with a co-worker just so they would provide me with a place to sleep that night?  Yes.  Am I proub of any of these actions?  No.  But it's human nature and survival.  If I was faced with protecting myself or my family my breaking point for violence is reached VERY quickly.  If I have a gun in my hand and you are a threat to myself or my family or friends or even a poor sad stranger I will shoot to kill.  If I have a knife in my hand and again am faced with the same predicament I will attack viciously and aim to kill.  If I have no conventional weapons I will use my hands or some other odd object and yes, my aim would be to kill.  Some people when faced with things like this wouldn't act in the same way.  Their breaking points are different.  But there is still a breaking point where they will break down and go for protect and kill.  Animal instincts are in all humans because we are essentially in the most basic point animals.  Yes, morality plays a part in our breaking point but in the end that breaking point still exists. 

*shrugs*  The fact that I am animal and will react as an animal at times does not bother me like it seems to bother other people.  I have just accepted the fact as fact and deal with it. 

Offline Moondazed

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #53 on: November 23, 2008, 11:27:11 AM »
While I understand your point, it irritates me when people use 'human nature' as an excuse to avoid personal responsibility.  I'm not saying that you do that, just that I've seen a LOT of it in the polyamory community, "I don't mean to be bitchy when I'm jealous, it's just human nature.".  Jealousy may be human nature but the actions one takes in response to it are that individual's responsibility.

Offline ShrowdedPoet

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #54 on: November 23, 2008, 01:13:49 PM »
While I understand your point, it irritates me when people use 'human nature' as an excuse to avoid personal responsibility.  I'm not saying that you do that, just that I've seen a LOT of it in the polyamory community, "I don't mean to be bitchy when I'm jealous, it's just human nature.".  Jealousy may be human nature but the actions one takes in response to it are that individual's responsibility.

I know you're not saying this to me personally but it definately made me want to clarify my standing in the matter.  Human nature is no excuse.  You did it, you are responsible.  That's how I feel on that subject.  If I killed someone and was charged with murder I'd go to jail and take my punishment because I did it and deserve what I got.  I knew the consiquences of what I did and even if human nature set in it wouldn't matter. . .I still did it, I'm still fully responsible.  If a dog pisses in my floor I hold the dog responsible even though it's just dog nature. 

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Free Will
« Reply #55 on: November 23, 2008, 02:16:12 PM »
I'm not sure how far the human nature argument can really go though.  There have been people that refused to fight another person even when death was an option.  There have been cases where people have stood in front of gunfire to save strangers.  Firefighters routinely rush into burning buildings, paramedics under gunfire will go out onto a street to save a wounded person and teachers have barricaded doors with their bodies to protect their students.  None of these speak of this "animal instinct" to me.  Even then, your reference to morality seems to involve social constraints on that person. 

I do not steal because the police will come for me.
I do not kill this person because I will go to jail.
I don't cheat on my taxes cause the IRS will probe me.

Free Will involves more a question of morality.  Is it wrong to steal when I am starving?  Is it wrong to sleep with someone because I need a warm bed?  Is it wrong to kill another person to save myself?  Free Will says that you can make that choice for yourself, nobody will hold your hand or whisper in your ear.  For me the best analogy is the Sims.  Whereas if a Sim goes to pee on the floor, the players can stop him and click on the bathroom.  Free Will says they can't do that.

Offline ShrowdedPoet

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #56 on: November 23, 2008, 06:21:32 PM »
We still all have human nature and animal instinct.  We just all have different points of breaking.  Those people you mentioned above, theirs are different than other peoples.  It's normal for one person to be different than the other.  I will kill more quickly when my daughter is threatened than when I am threatened.  I will die more quickly for someone when it is my child than when it is a complete stranger.  Different levels.  Different people.  Different situations.  These are things that effect decisions and when a person will revert to animal instinct. 

I do what I have to to survive, fuck the law and fuck religion.  When it comes down to it I will do what it takes to keep myself and my family going.  It has taken alot of getting comfortable with myself to be able to say that. 

Morality is more a human trait.  Are you saying that without morality you do not have free will?  If we really have 'free will', I am inclined to believe that all living creatures have it.  But, do all living creatures have morality?  If free will is directly tied into morality then there is the question of who or what can feel morality.  Sociopaths are said to have no morality.  Does that then mean that they have no free will.  Wouldn't it then follow that they are not responsible for what they did because they couldn't stop it, it was somehow programed into them?  Not saying any of this is so but it is a very interesting thought that I will now linger on for a while. . .

Offline Oniya

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #57 on: November 23, 2008, 06:40:41 PM »
Sociopaths are said to have no morality.  Does that then mean that they have no free will.  Wouldn't it then follow that they are not responsible for what they did because they couldn't stop it, it was somehow programed into them?  Not saying any of this is so but it is a very interesting thought that I will now linger on for a while. . .

This is actually the basis of some insanity defenses - that - although they knew it was wrong - they were unable, due to a mental defect, to comport themselves to the law.

(*watches too many live court cases on TV*)