You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 05, 2016, 07:06:20 PM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: I got wondering something about IS  (Read 930 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online AmberStarfireTopic starter

  • Rogue Starlight ~ Fantasy Novelist ~ This Is Who We Are ~ Scully to his Mulder
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2008
  • Location: Somewhere that makes me smile
  • Gender: Female
  • ❤ Snuggler of the Wyld and Hairy ❤
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
I got wondering something about IS
« on: December 05, 2015, 01:41:08 AM »
I was thinking of asking in the Muslim thread but it seemed better to create a separate thread for this purpose.

It occurred to me that I actually, literally don't know why they're attacking westerners. There are reasons why they might (such as the fact western countries have sent military forces over there, the fact they might not approve of the western way of living, and because of the actions of those cartoonists in France), but that isn't a reason to do what they do.

This may seem immensely uninformed of me, but I don't get it. Why are they doing this? What do they hope to achieve?


Offline gaggedLouise

  • Quim Queen | Collaborative juicy writer
  • Champion
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Location: Scandinavia
  • Gender: Female
  • Bound, gagged and unarmed but still dangerous.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: I got wondering something about IS
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2015, 05:02:51 AM »
The question is, why are they attacking western civilians? There could be a few different reasons, for different kinds of attacks.

When they are striking against groups of tourists in the Arab world, as on that beach in Tunisia or in Egypt, their idea would be to hurt the income of those countries from tourism (a very big thing for countries like Egypt) and to make the local government come across as being in hock to the West. If few people want to go to Egypt because of spectacular terrorist acts, then the local rulers will have a tougher time. Now I don't think the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt are actually any allies of IS, though both movements want an islamic society in sme sense, but IS wants to polarize things so that some of the people who supported the MB might join the ranks of IS instead.

With those beheadings and killings on camera of captive western hostages, it's for propaganda value I figure. It's a way of boasting "we're standing up to the west, to the infidels! this is how powerless they are to stop us!"

So, a few western countries have attacked from the air, the US has been using drone strikes for some time too, and IS replied with the cowardly raid in Paris. That's a different kind, and it would bring together a few different reasons, I figure:

- 1. They may have wanted to put presssure on countries in the west to stop attacking them, by "hitting where it hurts" and hoping that the people of France and other countries won't stand up to this. They certainly see the west as a culture of weak people who can be easily pushed down or, in the future, enslaved and controlled. This doesn't have anything to do with how the big majority of ordinary muslims, educated muslims see history, but it's part of the outlook of these ratbags.

- 2. Vengeance. Visible revenge for drone strikes and air strikes (though if the top people of IS have any sense they'll realize that raids like the one in Paris, or in America, will just lead to a barrage of new air strikes and more determination to hit back at them)

- 3. Inspiring spin-off terrorist cells and local movements in the west. Nobody's been talking much about whether IS might want to get involved with any kind of local groups that are not overtly violent, not just into throwing bombs and the like, but which would help disseminate their ideas anyway. They do have some links to radical mosques and networks in western Europe...it's at least conceivable that they'd see it as an aim to become a steady presence in some ghetto suburbs and exercise some control of daily life there, creating "no-go zones". That way they would be taking the war into the enemy's country. And no doubt they would want to grow local terrorist cells and outfits in the west. The band that struck in Paris was largely made up of Belgian and French-based Arabs, though the ringleader was an IS-trained "professional".


It's a bit surprising they have not (to my knowledge) tried to attack in Israel yet, it would fit all three of those reasons (it's certainly an antisemitic movement and there's no doubt they think muslims have been backstabbed by Jews, and by Israel - so they already see the country as a prime enemy). It could be the next step.  :
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 05:25:09 AM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Cycle

Re: I got wondering something about IS
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2015, 12:39:16 PM »
My understanding it that ISIS/ISIL/daesh is basically a group of people who are following an extreme branch of the Islamic faith.  They believe that anyone that doesn't follow their interpretation of Islam should be killed (or used as slaves, etc.).  Thus, the United States is an enemy, as is Saudi Arabia and Russia. 

Their ultimate goal is to take over the world so everyone on the planet is under their control.  They don't have the raw military might to do this, so they are using guerrilla warfare (on the ground and online) and terrorism.

Offline Beguile's Mistress

  • Time flies like an arrow ~ Fruit flies like a banana ~ Elliquiy's Fair-E Godmother
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2009
  • Location: Faeleacanvald ~ The Steeler Nation ~ Home of Lord Stanley's Cup 2016 ~ She won't stay throwed! ~ 48\22-5\1\11-5\7
  • Gender: Female
  • Perpetual Notion Machine ~ 'What if...?'
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: I got wondering something about IS
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2015, 02:59:14 PM »
There is probably a lot of hold over from the days of old colonialism as well that goes all the way back to the Roman occupation of the regions involved.  It is a long, violent history and for some just the latest evolution of the conflict.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 07:08:09 PM by Beguile's Mistress »

Offline Skynet

Re: I got wondering something about IS
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2015, 06:21:45 PM »
My understanding it that ISIS/ISIL/daesh is basically a group of people who are following an extreme branch of the Islamic faith.  They believe that anyone that doesn't follow their interpretation of Islam should be killed (or used as slaves, etc.).  Thus, the United States is an enemy, as is Saudi Arabia and Russia.

And Iran, and China, and Europe, etc...

Online AmberStarfireTopic starter

  • Rogue Starlight ~ Fantasy Novelist ~ This Is Who We Are ~ Scully to his Mulder
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2008
  • Location: Somewhere that makes me smile
  • Gender: Female
  • ❤ Snuggler of the Wyld and Hairy ❤
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: I got wondering something about IS
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2015, 07:03:23 PM »
Thanks for your explanations. They help me understand better.

It explains why they won't co-exist with their neighbours, essentially. Why they're driven to be destructive, because their views don't integrate the way others' do. My previous view was that in western countries, Christianity was seen in opposition because it excludes all other gods, but these attacks are not limited to Christians, they're against people of a range of faiths. It's like they're trying to imbue themselves with privilege and back it up with weapons, and all they're doing is harming people and trying to proliferate. I'm sure that's an immensely simplified way of seeing things.


Offline Cycle

Re: I got wondering something about IS
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2015, 07:07:44 PM »
these attacks are not limited to Christians, they're against people of a range of faiths.

Pretty much.  They will, and have, gleefully killed people who are Muslim, Christian, non-religious, etc.  Basically, if you are not part of ISIS/ISIL/daesh, and you are a man, they want you dead.  If you are a woman, you want you as their slave. 

Offline consortium11

Re: I got wondering something about IS
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2015, 10:50:53 PM »
It's a bit surprising they have not (to my knowledge) tried to attack in Israel yet, it would fit all three of those reasons (it's certainly an antisemitic movement and there's no doubt they think muslims have been backstabbed by Jews, and by Israel - so they already see the country as a prime enemy). It could be the next step.

There's a couple of reasons that are suggested:

1) The "official" Islamic State position is essentially that they haven't got round to it yet and that they need to do some other stuff first to prepare for it.

2) The enemy of my enemy is my friend. The Islamic State ideology tends to hate Muslims who don't follow the exact same branch of Islam as they do even more then they hate non-Muslims. While the Islamic State and Hamas may be on speaking terms (they are apparently coordinating together) it and Hezbollah are literally at war. Israel has been bombing Hezbollah sites in Syria for a while now, albeit on a relatively small scale. The Islamic State would much rather they did that then start bombing them.

3) While strategy frequently loses out to ideology when it comes to the Islamic State (see the terrorist attacks in Paris and the Russian aircraft bombing, both of which were horrible strategic decisions but fit their ideology) the Islamic State haven't proven themselves to be completely inept when it comes to strategic thinking. The modest (by modern military standards) airstrikes that the West has used against the Islamic State so far have almost completely stalled their forward momentum and caused them to lose small amounts of ground. Drawing Russia in to the campaign was bad enough. Israel would just make it worse. As touched on in the "official" ISIS response right now they don't have the resources or infrastructure available to handle fighting Israel... they only just have the resources and infastructure to maintain their current operations.

4) In terms of terrorist attacks like Paris, Israel has a far more advanced security regime and apparatus then pretty much anywhere in the world to begin with and are currently at a heightened state of awareness due to the stabbing attacks that are going on.



Answering the original question it's mainly down to ideology. The routes of the Islamic State can be traced to Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad and its founder Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. That group was founded to overthrow Jordan and impose a strict Sunni state in its place because al-Zarqawi considered them to be apostates and non-Muslims. Basically, follow their fundamentalist take on Islam in every way or die.

Other matters; interference in the Middle East, Western support for Israel etc etc may have strengthened the groups but at their core their motivation remains their ideology. They're not a group you can appease apart from by full submission and they're not a group that you can ignore in the hope that they'll also ignore you.

George Bush was often mocked for the "they hate us for our freedoms" quote but he was actually pretty on the money:

Quote
Americans are asking "Why do they hate us?''

They hate what they see right here in this chamber: a democratically elected government. Their leaders are self-appointed. They hate our freedoms: our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other.


While normally it constitutes Godwin'ing a discussion, in this case I think it is pretty appropriate to compare the Islamic State to the Nazis. The Nazis had a racial view of the world with those not of their chosen race being inferior to the point where it was right to wipe them from the world. The Islamic State have a similar view but on religious grounds.

Online Lustful Bride

  • "Logic is for Squares."
  • Lady
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Gender: Female
  • This is some personal text. There are many like it, but this one is mine!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: I got wondering something about IS
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2015, 11:05:20 PM »
I think its also a case of "We have to fight them over there, so we don't fight them over here." Kind of thing.

The longer they are allowed to continue their movement the more they spread out, like a filthy cancer.

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: I got wondering something about IS
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2015, 04:02:33 AM »

My understanding is that their resentment towards the US is more a consequence of the collapse of Iraq and resulting fighting between the Sunni  and Shia Muslims while the Charlie Hebdo shooting was punishment for drawing a picture of Mohamed. Apparently in Islam, corporal punishment is allowed in cases of treason, apostasy, terrorism, piracy, rape, adultery and homosexual activity. These punishments include beheading, crucifixion, stoning, amputation and flogging. What is most fucked up about this is that they think that their sharia law applies to everyone, not just themselves and that they have some sort of duty to impose this on others.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/islamethics/capitalpunishment.shtml
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudud#Other_offences_and_non-hudud_punishments

As for the latest attack on Paris, the theory that they are trying to trigger a doomsday scenario seems the most plausible to me. I mean come on, provoking France, Russia, Germany, the US and others to the point of bombing the shit out of them is just suicidal. Other than fulfilling some perverted end of world fantasy with a Dues ex machina style ending featuring Mohamed himself, I see no other believable intention.

It appears from this article (below), that many if not most Muslims believe that sharia law is the word of god, not just something invented by man.  What the article excludes unfortunately, is the opinions of Muslims who live the US and Europe.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/05/01/study-where-do-muslims-really-stand-on-shariah-law/

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: I got wondering something about IS
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2015, 12:10:34 PM »
According to their internal propaganda magazine, at least (taken with an appropriate helping of salt), provoking a doomsday scenario is exactly what some of them want.

Quote
Every issue of Dabiq begins with the same quote: "The spark has been lit here in Iraq, and its heat will continue to intensify -- by Allah's permission -- until it burns the crusader armies in Dabiq." And here's where the magazine gets its name.

Dabiq is an area in Northern Syria where, according to prophecy, Allah will do the whole "pillar of salt" thing on the armies of the West. For that to happen, we need to actually put our armies in Dabiq first. One thing reading 11 issues of Dabiq makes very clear is that ISIS considers a future U.S.-led invasion to be inevitable. They view the regional powers around them as destined to fall and, when that happens, in rides Uncle Sam and out pops the apocalypse

http://www.cracked.com/blog/isis-wants-us-to-invade-7-facts-revealed-by-their-magazine/
(Yes, I am citing Cracked; they are capable of writing serious articles, like this one, they just rarely do.)

Online AmberStarfireTopic starter

  • Rogue Starlight ~ Fantasy Novelist ~ This Is Who We Are ~ Scully to his Mulder
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2008
  • Location: Somewhere that makes me smile
  • Gender: Female
  • ❤ Snuggler of the Wyld and Hairy ❤
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: I got wondering something about IS
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2015, 11:51:56 PM »
There is this article on an Australian news site today that I found quite interesting reading.

http://www.news.com.au/world/new-us-intelligence-report-predicts-isis-will-spread-worldwide/news-story/c8b871c1de7bceeb3a0edf4aa8dc4fbc

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: I got wondering something about IS
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2015, 02:14:13 AM »

Online HannibalBarca

  • Defiant General of Hopeless Causes * Henry Rollins for President campaigner * Mako-phile * Uncle Iroh in shades * Disciple of Dr. Cornel West *
  • Lord
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Feb 2013
  • Location: At large, am tall. "People keep asking if I'm back. Yeah...I'm thinking I'm back."
  • Gender: Male
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: I got wondering something about IS
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2015, 02:55:13 AM »
Daesh wishes to reinstate the Islamic caliphate--the Muslim equivalent to the papacy--thus unifying (in their mind) Islam under their directive, and from there, conquer the world for their version of Islam.

Among other things they are lacking in, they seem to have a poor grasp of mathematics, as the world as a whole has them greatly outnumbered.