Gay marriage

[The Overlord]

Methos, I'm VERY sorry for you if you believe that the desire to spend the rest of your life with someone and have it be recognized by a state of law does not contribute in one way or another to society.  The way I see it, people who are in happy marriages, or in love, mow their lawns-- and as a homeowner, that's the only contribution to society that I can demand! 

That's just it; a lot of gay/lesbian couples are perfectly normal. They have good relationships, they mow their lawns, they put out the trash, they pay their taxes. Admittedly, having an adopted child with two mothers or fathers, or however you want to term that, is unconventional.

But I've known a number of adopted people over the years, even some cousins of mine are adopted. Some of them came from far worse situations than a homosexual family, or have gone into worse situations. This admittedly a sticky point of the process, but it seems to work for some families. Who are any of us to question it?


That's it for me now. I've said all I can; by now everyone here is highly aware of where I stand on this. Further discussion is pointless, because the opposition and I are just going in circles, and it's nasty little consuming spiral of a debate.

Being aware of the trap is the first step to defeating it, and that is what I now choose to do. I have a senior portfolio to work on, and no more time to devote to this. In the words of Mike Myers...talk amongst yourselves.


As promised I will leave the opposition with the only thing among all the fluff that really matters here:

It's none of your business.

[LaBelleDame]

I think it's truely curious that in the Old Testiment, a couple pages after Sodom and Ghomorah are destroyed, two girls opt to get their father drunk and sleep with him, with the intention of getting pregnant.
And those offspring are blessed and become their own people.

Curious how incest is okay in the good book.
o_O
But a mention of butt-buggering and the destruction of a city, and homosexuality is suddenly a most horrid of sins.
I most certainly see no harm in same sex marriage to what marriage is.
I do see harm in what marriage is, though.

[RubySlippers]

Well I was always in the "camp" of dropping this fight for gay marriage which is loaded with problems for strong legal civil unions confering virtually the same rights excluding taxes and a few others, if these happen to have more than two people in them. I think the marriage part is turning off the support that could be given in compromise to at least the religious moderates and those on the fence but don't like the idea.

And I'm afraid I agree with the black community saying homosexuality or bisexuality is the same as being a person of color is not reasonable they walk out in public and are - black. I walk out in public I'm a disabled white woman but lesbian is not. No one can tell unless I announce it in some way. That is the difference between gays and lesbians and other minorites protected under the law. Until we get that we can't plan a sensible strategy to get legal protections at some level for our loved ones in our lives and us.

I will exclude gender identity here since sex change operations and the like are a different category to consider in this since they can appear as they are.

[CassandraNova]

Well I was always in the "camp" of dropping this fight for gay marriage which is loaded with problems for strong legal civil unions confering virtually the same rights excluding taxes and a few others...

And if we put these really nice seat cushions on the seats on the back of the bus, it's like they'd don't even have to ride in the back of the bus!  Let's make sure that the separate water fountains they have to drink from make their water nice and chilly, and that makes it okay that they have to drink from a separate fountain!

Come on.  Civil unions aren't enough.  Marriage is recognized in every county, state, and in every country in the world, while civil unions aren't; so the rights and responsibilities don't necessarily travel with a couple when they leave a state in which they were granted.  Marriage is an institution that has existed for thousands of years, one that has tremendous emotional and psychological resonance in our culture in a way that civil unions don't.

But even if the philosophical case for equality doesn't move you, how about some cold, hard numbers:  Five months after New Jersey's Civil Union Law took effect, at least 1 out of every 7 civil-union couples in New Jersey were not getting their civil unions recognized by their employers.  That's about 14 percent. 

Civil unions are not just legally unequal to marriage, they're not just emotionally unequal to marriage, they're not even morally unequal to marriage.  They're unequal in the most basic, literal sense of the word:  in New Jersey there is a different and inferior standard to which companies are held when in comes to granting benefits to civil union'ed (that's another case why a system of civil unions won't work; there's no good past participle for joining in a civil union like there are for folks who are married) employees.  They're not being treated "separate but sort of equal" by their employers.  And that's why civil unions aren't enough.  Big step in the right direction, big whole lot better than nothing, but not enough.

And I'm afraid I agree with the black community saying homosexuality or bisexuality is the same as being a person of color is not reasonable they walk out in public and are - black. I walk out in public I'm a disabled white woman but lesbian is not. No one can tell unless I announce it in some way. That is the difference between gays and lesbians and other minorites protected under the law...

By that same logic, hate crime against Jews isn't the same as bigotry or discrimination against people of color.  I mean, come on, if it wasn't for the fact that they draw attention to themselves with those funny hats and clothes and their insular culture, they could pass for white in a lot of cases!  Therefore it isn't morally equivalent when they are victimized by bigotry, because they drew some of that attention to themselves by they just can't help but stand out...

Yeah.  No.  Time to take a lesson from speech class, steal a quote, and go out strong.

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.

[Eren]

I myself wonder why Methos seems to feel so threatened by the notion that there are people in the world in same-sex marriages. Or maybe he has never been discriminated against.

While I can't speak for America, I can say that I know people who wish to have same-sex marriage legalized here in Estonia. The reasons are simple: to enjoy the benefits married couples have. You know, being able to visit your spouse when he/she is in the hospital, being able to adopt, yadda yadda. Why not? It would not hurt the straight people.

Just like Overlord said, gays are perfectly normal. They just happen to like different sexual bits, is all. And I speak from personal experience. While having mom's gay friends was a little strange at first when I was 15, by now it has ceased to matter. In fact, most of them are some of the nicest people I've met. Not to glorify it or anything, but just adding my 2 cents.

[Trieste]

I myself wonder why Methos seems to feel so threatened by the notion that there are people in the world in same-sex marriages. Or maybe he has never been discriminated against.

Unnecessary. Out of line. *thwaps with rolled up newspaper* Please debate as opposed to attacking.

[Eren]

Sorry. Will refrain from it in the future, I promise.

*is promptly thwapped*

[Trieste]

Thank you!

[Oniya]

It appears to me that every time one person says 'what would it hurt', another says 'what would it help?'  The words 'it doesn't add anything' kept being tossed about.

I had to think about how to phrase it for a while, but there are things it adds.  For one thing, stability.  My sister has an adorable son, and a devoted life-partner.  With the way things are, if something, God forbid, were to happen to her, her life-partner would have less claim on the son they have both raised since infancy than my parents.  If they were married, there would be no question. 

It would probably lower the divorce rate - I see couples on the news talking about gay marriage, and they've been waiting - together - for decades to be 'official'.  That's longer than the average straight marriage lasts these days.

Honesty.  I'm not sure how many people remember Rock Hudson here, but think about it:  The man spent his entire married life in a lie.  There are countless others in the same situation, for one reason or another.

Loving families.  The people that want to get married are marrying because they want to, not because society has said that if you're single, 'ur nawt doin it rite!' (spelling deliberate to illustrate how idiotic that is) ; but because they truly, madly, deeply want to be joined with their partner, in the sight of God and the community, 'till death do us part'.  (Fill in your Deity of choice and personal vows.)

[Sugarman (hal)]

It all comes down to religious values. They will never agree to the union between same sex people as a marriage. That’s it bottom line. Religious people would love to force people to believe as they.  Be it Christian or  Hindu or Museum they see it their way only. Just this week a Taliban religious group through acid on some girls because they were “not dressed how a proper Museum women showed dress.”   

Remember the inquisition and witch hunts it’s still under the surface just itching to take us all down to be saved.
just my opinion

[HairyHeretic]

While I have no great fondness for any organised religions (especially the Abrahamic ones), I don't think that every religious person is an extremist fanatic.

[ShrowdedPoet]

I am religious.  BUT I do not care what others believe and feel no need to put my religious beliefs on others.  *shrugs*  Gay marriage is fine in my books. 

Oniya said it best. 

[Mathim]

What I don't like is how people seem to think homosexuals are doing this out of some kind of attack against god or whatever; that's not even close to it. The ones opposing this for false religious reasons are the ones guilty of attacking.

And what I really don't get is how women can be opposed to this for false religious reasons; the bible is always spouting misogynistic crap, are women really content being forced into submission all the time? If not then that's hypocritical, defending one aspect of what they THINK the bible is saying, but defying another.

[Oniya]

*nods*  Most of them quote Leviticus, and if you hit them with something else from that book (like no eating shrimp, no clothing of mixed fibers, or the ability for a father to sell his children into slavery, just to name a few absurdities), they sputter and say how that's not relevant these days.

[RubySlippers]

That is not true the Bible is full of powerful and spiritually strong women that can stand up for God, in fact many faiths allow women to have as much power as men.

I like to bring up who did Caine and Abel have for wives they did begat alot it seems and there not alot of people around. Seems incest was ok at one point.

But the fact is gay marriage in the US is a none issue if California can ban it it can happen in many states.

[Oniya]

*nod* Ruth and Esther are notable examples of strong biblical women.

I think you mean Seth (son #3), since Abel bought it.  Cain was exiled and went into the land of Nod, and took a wife among the Others.  Of course, it's never said who those Others were, but there were obviously more people out there.  Lot's daughters got him drunk and committed incest, but that seemed to be Frowned Upon.

Oh, and for real fun, there are two separate stories of creation in Genesis.

*yanks topic back to gay marriage*

I am optimistic that the knee-jerk, hell-fire and brimstone preachers are starting to fall more and more by the wayside, especially among the younger people.  My parents couldn't conceive of blacks and whites marrying, but that's no longer illegal.  Maybe by the time my daughter is old enough, it won't matter if she wants to marry a man or a woman.

[Mathim]

To me, as long as people are getting married for the right reasons, I have no problem with it. And I would think that, given the divorce rate of straight marriages, since gays have had to fight so hard for that right, they'd definitely take more steps to ensure that once married, they do it right and have a happy, fulfilling relationship. I know many people in straight marriages who are miserable because they did it for the wrong reasons and did it without really thinking it through.

[RubySlippers]

I like Deborah personally a powerful woman in her own right and a wife, I assume a mother. So its the first example of a career woman and endowed by God as a prophetess.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborah

But its not the "firebrand" ministers that should be a concern its the conservative moderates that seemed to turn out for the Gay Marriage ban in California by enough to turn the vote.

[Mathim]

Yeah. The clergy can say whatever they want, it's down to the individual person to be rational enough to find out the truth for themselves, and decide whether or not to think for themselves, or to blindly follow what some selfish, ignorant and power-hungry people tell them.

[Sugarman (hal)]

To me, as long as people are getting married for the right reasons, I have no problem with it. And I would think that, given the divorce rate of straight marriages, since gays have had to fight so hard for that right, they'd definitely take more steps to ensure that once married, they do it right and have a happy, fulfilling relationship. I know many people in straight marriages who are miserable because they did it for the wrong reasons and did it without really thinking it through.

excellently put.

[Chris Brady]

To me, as long as people are getting married for the right reasons, I have no problem with it. And I would think that, given the divorce rate of straight marriages, since gays have had to fight so hard for that right, they'd definitely take more steps to ensure that once married, they do it right and have a happy, fulfilling relationship. I know many people in straight marriages who are miserable because they did it for the wrong reasons and did it without really thinking it through.

The problem with marriage in general at the moment keys all the way down to one simple issue.  The "It's all about ME!" problem that humanity has had all of it's existence.

No one communicates with each other.  Lovers don't trust each other*.  And everyone can't stand the thought of having to do something themselves, either because they're lazy, or they don't want to be blamed for....  Something.

As for the Divorce rate...  How many Gay Marriages have we had, compared to 'normal' ones?  Seriously, I find it hard to believe that Gays and Lesbians are somehow magically superior to all us 'Norms' and never have fights, never break up, never cheat or what have you.  I think it's more of the 'Minority Issue'.  We don't hear about such things because, Le GASP!  We'd be DISCRIMINATING!  And we can't do that to THEM.

Sorry, a tad bitter there.  Being discriminated against is not right, Majority OR Minority.

*A cute anecdote, about 6 years ago, I had the hots for a Co-Worker at my job, and we really hit it off, but as 'friends'.  At least that's what she wanted.  And apparently, I was like the perfect boyfriend to her (Or so she claimed), except she kept chasing other guys, and would dump them because they failed the criteria.  But never once did she consider me 'Boyfriend Material' despite apparently being 'perfect' (Her words.) And she would always complain about the disasters to me, and wonder who could be the one for her.  All the while telling me things her boyfriends should really know.

It was putting in a resume for a company, being told that although I fit the qualifications perfectly, they weren't going to hire me, but keep and will use the C.V. as their guide for hiring others.  And then complain about how none of the hirees are good enough.

Took me two years to call her up and apologize for misleading her this whole time.  I wasn't trying to be a friend after all.

[mannik]

*A cute anecdote, about 6 years ago, I had the hots for a Co-Worker at my job, and we really hit it off, but as 'friends'.  At least that's what she wanted.  And apparently, I was like the perfect boyfriend to her (Or so she claimed), except she kept chasing other guys, and would dump them because they failed the criteria.  But never once did she consider me 'Boyfriend Material' despite apparently being 'perfect' (Her words.) And she would always complain about the disasters to me, and wonder who could be the one for her.  All the while telling me things her boyfriends should really know.

It was putting in a resume for a company, being told that although I fit the qualifications perfectly, they weren't going to hire me, but keep and will use the C.V. as their guide for hiring others.  And then complain about how none of the hirees are good enough.

Took me two years to call her up and apologize for misleading her this whole time.  I wasn't trying to be a friend after all.

If you ask a woman to describe her idea of the perfect boyfriend they typically describe one of their friends. I have been told that people know within the first five seconds of meeting someone weather or not they want a romantic relationship with them, and that initial impression is not easily changed. The problem is that those 'perfect' people tend to click on the more 'personal friend' level than on the 'potential mate' level, probably because what they are initially looking for in a mate is more superficial than what they look for in friends.

Not exactly relevent to the gay marriage thing, but what ever...

[RubySlippers]

Everyone knows marriage is a lot of hard work and sacrifice for a hopefully more out of it then you put into it. My parents have a good marriage as far as I can tell and it wasn't easy you have to work at it. I put that same effort into my relationship and it seems to work but it requires that I and my SO work together.

[Chris Brady]

My parents have been together for more than 35 years.  And that, I believe, is because that among being lovers, they are also the best of friends and tell each other everything.  No secrets, nothing hidden.  ANd I don't care what gender you are, a relationship survives because of trust and loyalty.

[Mathim]

The problem with marriage in general at the moment keys all the way down to one simple issue.  The "It's all about ME!" problem that humanity has had all of it's existence.

No one communicates with each other.  Lovers don't trust each other*.  And everyone can't stand the thought of having to do something themselves, either because they're lazy, or they don't want to be blamed for....  Something.

As for the Divorce rate...  How many Gay Marriages have we had, compared to 'normal' ones?  Seriously, I find it hard to believe that Gays and Lesbians are somehow magically superior to all us 'Norms' and never have fights, never break up, never cheat or what have you.  I think it's more of the 'Minority Issue'.  We don't hear about such things because, Le GASP!  We'd be DISCRIMINATING!  And we can't do that to THEM.

That's not what I meant-I'm just saying, gays have had to fight and struggle for rights, so they'll be more likely to show by example that it's a good decision to give them those rights. Like when the black population of South Africa finally got the right to vote, practically every single one of them eagerly exercised that right because they had to go without that right for so long.