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Author Topic: Gay marriage  (Read 7804 times)

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Offline Oniya

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Gay marriage
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2008, 01:00:15 AM »
*nods* but Christianity has lasted 2000 years...think on that for a moment.

Back on topic, though...
I'm not trying to condescend; i hate when people do that to me. I just...Be aware. :)

Speaking as a sometime student of mythology, I'll add that the Egyptian pantheon lasted several thousand years, and unless I'm mistaken, Hinduism predates the Common Era and is still being practiced.

A wise man who follows the Tsalagi ways once told me that 'We should all follow our own Path.  Mine will not be the same as yours, but it is right for me, and yours will eventually be right for you.  As we travel, we take in new ideas and discard others that we have no need for.  Therefore, if someone - anyone - is leading you on your Path, and you don't watch where you're going, you will step in what they have left behind on the Path.   So keep your eyes open, and wear your hip-waders, because some people have left a lot of sh*t behind them.'

Offline Cherri Tart

Gay marriage
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2008, 01:17:18 AM »
Honestly what does gay marriage add? They can't settle down and naturally have a family. Its not like they have to make an honest woman out of each other and avoid their children being called bastards. Its really only an attempt to hijack a cultural tradition by people insecure about their own status in society and wishing for validation of their normality. Having gay marriages adds absolutely no society value, and its a pretty sad attempt at retconning a cultural tradition that's existed since the dawn of time. The meaning of words shouldn't just be changed on a whim.

i am just speechless - so, my SO and i have nothing of value to add to our society?  want to know something?  the only value i have is being married to a man and producing babies?  btw, i already accept that i am not normal and i am not trying to be - i simply want to be left alone to live my life with the woman i love - is that so wrong?  i just don't think i can even voice the pure white rage i felt at reading through this statement and how hard it is to not react viscerally to.  thank you very much for discounting me as a person just because my DNA doesn't mesh with yours. 

Offline Caeli

Gay marriage
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2008, 02:00:15 AM »
I know this has absolutely nothing to do with the current topic at hand, but you guys. Seriously.

Gay marriage is probably an issue that would best be debated and argued over in a separate thread. I understand that peripherally, marriage between homosexuals and religion are related, but the real topic of this thread is Utah, Mormon campaigning against CA's Proposition 8, and the boycott.

If there is more to be said or argued or debated over concerning gay marriage, I really suggest that you guys split it into a separate thread, so as not to derail from the issue of the boycott.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Gay marriage
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2008, 02:50:58 AM »
Alright, split.

If you want to continue discussing religion specifically (outside of gay marriage), please make a new thread.

Thank you.

Offline Ket

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Re: Gay marriage
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2008, 02:58:07 AM »
Honestly what does gay marriage add?

What does gay marriage take away?  Would your life be so horribly affected if gay couples were allowed to legally wed?  Would the clouds fall out of the sky, buildings collapse, rivers flood, earthquakes ravage the earth, etc?  I think not.

Offline Wistful Dream

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Re: Gay marriage
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2008, 03:27:04 AM »
I have been blessed in my life to know quiet a few "gay" people, and you know what Methos? They are happy. They know who they are, they know how they love and generally, they find others who love them just like the rest of us.

Why in the world would you post this here of all places? You have to know that several people on the site are or have friends who are. Trying to stir up trouble and hurt for no good reason is a horrible thing to do.

~hugs Cherri tight~

I am extremely disappointed in this Methos, I thought you were better then this.

Offline Cecily

Re: Gay marriage
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2008, 03:29:31 AM »
Many of these could be corrected with Federal Legislation confering these right to Civil Unions save in the Military and I will add homosexuals cannot legally serve in the military. Others just need state laws such as with visitation rights. None require gay marriage per se just a legal recognition of a Civil Union so why not focus on that?

Yes, that was my point -- I was saying that even if civil unions are options for gay people, they don't give all the same benefits as marriage does. I think that the whole 'don't ask don't tell' policy is ridiculous, but people who are gay can still serve in the military as long as they don't tell people in the military about it. I think that having civil unions with all the same benefits as marriage would be great, but I personally think that gay marriage should be allowed anyways. -Shrugs- But it's better than nothing. :)

I suspect you might get more support than if you seem to attack the sanctity of marriage as the people of faith see it. I favor this approach it would likely be easier to get save in Florida now, our Amendment 2 pretty well shafted the logical and simple approach.

Wait, what? I'm not sure what you mean there. I'm not attacking marriage, if that's what you meant. I think marriage is a great and special thing that every adult -- regardless of their sexual orientation should be allowed to have.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Gay marriage
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2008, 03:48:25 AM »
For the record, the 'tradition' of marriage in judeo-christianity was not, originally, "A contract between a man and a woman."

It was a contract between a man and a woman's father, in which the man would agree to pay the bride price and uphold certain filial obligations. None of which restricted him to one wife.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Gay marriage
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2008, 06:11:37 AM »
If your a Christian nope its between the couple and God and the bible-thumpers all read a few passages in the OT and one or two in the NT to show God condemns it. Even though Jesus never once spoke on the issue of homosexuals. But that means to them no Gay Marriage since marriage is sacred. And they had enough clout even in California to pass a Constitutional provision against it.

For me I would just make Civil Unions the standard and let marriage be a religious matter confering to the couple in the former the same level of rights married people have. The latter can be a seperate matter done privately. And allow Civil Unions to cover more than one adult citizen I see no reason eight people can't be married to each other.

Like I said Florida just banned Civil Unions at least the one contract strong ones so be grateful you still have that option in other states.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Gay marriage
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2008, 09:07:31 AM »
I'm for gay marriage. Honestly what two people do is none of my business. The joke I add at the end is, "Why shouldn't they be as miserable as the rest of us." That's just a joke on marriage in general. :D They could probably be considered married by common law. Besides the idea of marriage as something sanctimonious is relatively new. Past the medieval ages I say. Maybe enlightenment period. The Bible has it in there not because it was bad, but the men of Sodom and Gomorrah were gay rapists. If you had to sleep on the street they would molest you. It's one of those things in the Bible that was like a dietary constraint. They didn't eat shellfish out of a unglazed jar because they kept milk in it. If everyone's sleeping with their own sex. The Hebrew population doesn't grow. /Just my two cents. 

Offline CassandraNova

Re: Gay marriage
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2008, 09:22:13 AM »
For the record, here's a very nice speech that sums up my feelings on the matter pretty much perfectly: 


Offline Avi

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Re: Gay marriage
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2008, 09:22:41 AM »


Whether you agree with Olbermann or not on any other issue, I think this is one of the most cogent summaries of the whole debate on gay marriage.  He is clearly for it, but you can be either way and still appreciate the argument.

Edit: Cassandra beat me to this. :P
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 09:24:34 AM by aviationrox »

Offline ShrowdedPoet

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Re: Gay marriage
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2008, 09:30:46 AM »
Alright. . .I guess I'm jumping in a bit late most of all that needed to be said has been said and rather well.  But. . .

I did alot of research into marriage in high school.  I was intrigued by it and where it came from.  Actually. . .marriage doesn't come from Christianity or even religion.  So yeah. . .the AMERICAN tradition of marriage is a far cry from what marriage started out as.  I think it was much more beautiful in between its starting point and its ending point.  *nods*
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 09:56:14 AM by ShrowdedPoet »

Offline Oniya

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Re: Gay marriage
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2008, 09:42:05 AM »
A few corrections on the Biblical stuff, from someone who was raised Catholic, and is a compulsive reader:

You're right - most of the laws in Leviticus, from the dietary to the sexual, were based on the needs of a small, nomadic population that needed to keep as many people healthy as possible.  Pork and shellfish were proscribed because of parasites.  The kosher sets of utensils are a very effective way of reducing/eliminating cross-contamination.  My husband was raised Jewish, and informed me that the color code on knife sets that they now market for eliminating cross-contamination are the traditional colors of fleishig (red, for meat) and non-fleishig (blue - which I believe can traditionally be used for both milchig {dairy} and pareve {neither meat nor dairy} ingredients).

All that aside, in such a situation, the emphasis is on men making babies, and as many as possible.  There is no proscription in Leviticus against lesbianism (although refusing your husband or wife {sin of Onan} was a Bad ThingTM), interestingly enough, and actually, the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah were not specified as homosexuality.  Actually, the Bible says these cities were destroyed because 'they were wicked and sinners' (Gen. 13:13) and makes no specific or implied connection between homosexuality and their destruction.

Even more clearly, Ezekiel 16:49 says, 'Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.'  (Searchable Bible databases and History Channel documentaries are a wonderful thing.)

I should also point out that all of Leviticus is Old Testament, Judaic law.  In the New Testament, Jesus is said to have dined with tax collectors and prostitutes, and said 'A new command I give you: Love one another as I have loved you.'  This would be agape love, not earthly like eros and stronger than philos.  And yet, here are all these people speaking out in hate.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Gay marriage
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2008, 09:52:15 AM »
You're right the were cities of sin. However, I believe, that it is the first rule set down on homosexuality. I was just being general about the whole city. Sure there were wicked heterosexuals too, but I didn't state that for the sake of the thread. I didn't say they had to crank out babies, but back then two homosexuals didn't make babies, and they were in the desert for most of the Old Testament. It's more smart tradition than anything else.

Offline CassandraNova

Re: Gay marriage
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2008, 11:39:45 AM »
Edit: Cassandra beat me to this. :P

Wow!  Synchronity, eh?

Offline Mathim

Re: Gay marriage
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2008, 12:02:54 PM »
Sorry if I repeat something that's been said but I didn't feel like reading all two pages of stuff.

I am completely in support of gay marriage/civil unions/whatever, it doesn't matter what it's called to me, whatever they want to call it is just fine with me. Calling marriage something sacred and pure is complete bullcrap since people treat it like something so inert; the divorce rate is enormous and a lot of people only do get married for the wrong reasons. How is that sacred? I'm sure for the very few people who are in a marriage for the right reasons and are happy with it have the right to call it sacred, but for anyone to say that allowing gays to get married to each other hurts marriage, they need to wake up and smell the coffee, straight people are doing far worse things to the notion of marriage than gays EVER could.

My best friend Michael is gay and he's the nicest person I've ever met. He's married to a woman because he was too afraid to come out of the closet until he was in his forties, and they're staying married even though they're no longer living together or anything, just to enjoy the benefits of marriage on their taxes and whatnot. Is that not a 'gay marriage'? It's completely legal though, and it's between a man and a woman. So how's that sound? Is that any better?

Offline Trieste

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Re: Gay marriage
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2008, 12:36:57 PM »
A few corrections on the Biblical stuff, from someone who was raised Catholic, and is a compulsive reader:

You're right - most of the laws in Leviticus, from the dietary to the sexual, were based on the needs of a small, nomadic population that needed to keep as many people healthy as possible.  Pork and shellfish were proscribed because of parasites.  The kosher sets of utensils are a very effective way of reducing/eliminating cross-contamination.  My husband was raised Jewish, and informed me that the color code on knife sets that they now market for eliminating cross-contamination are the traditional colors of fleishig (red, for meat) and non-fleishig (blue - which I believe can traditionally be used for both milchig {dairy} and pareve {neither meat nor dairy} ingredients).

All that aside, in such a situation, the emphasis is on men making babies, and as many as possible.  There is no proscription in Leviticus against lesbianism (although refusing your husband or wife {sin of Onan} was a Bad ThingTM), interestingly enough, and actually, the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah were not specified as homosexuality.  Actually, the Bible says these cities were destroyed because 'they were wicked and sinners' (Gen. 13:13) and makes no specific or implied connection between homosexuality and their destruction.

Even more clearly, Ezekiel 16:49 says, 'Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.'  (Searchable Bible databases and History Channel documentaries are a wonderful thing.)

I should also point out that all of Leviticus is Old Testament, Judaic law.  In the New Testament, Jesus is said to have dined with tax collectors and prostitutes, and said 'A new command I give you: Love one another as I have loved you.'  This would be agape love, not earthly like eros and stronger than philos.  And yet, here are all these people speaking out in hate.

*reads*

*rereads*

I ... Oniya, may I once more profess my undying love to you? Someone else who makes these distinctions is worth their weight in gold to me. <3 Handbook for desert living ftw... also the forms of love are fun to jump around on.

Offline PhantomPistoleer

Re: Gay marriage
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2008, 12:41:33 PM »
You know, purely from a very subjective perspective:

I'm getting married in December to a very beautiful girl!  She's awesome, sweet, benevolent and puts up with me (which is amazing, I'm manic!).  But, I don't see how people of the same sex marrying affects the status of my marriage, or the value of my love for my wife-to-be.  In fact, I think it's pretty grand that people feel the same way that I do about somebody else.  Love is amazing!

Methos, I'm VERY sorry for you if you believe that the desire to spend the rest of your life with someone and have it be recognized by a state of law does not contribute in one way or another to society.  The way I see it, people who are in happy marriages, or in love, mow their lawns-- and as a homeowner, that's the only contribution to society that I can demand!  :D

Offline CassandraNova

Re: Gay marriage
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2008, 12:44:14 PM »
...although refusing your wife {sin of Onan} was a Bad Thing...

Just a minor, minor nitpick in what is otherwise an excellent post, the sin of Onan was not masturbation or refusing his wife.  After God had killed Onan's older brother Er, Judah asked Onan to have sex with Tamar, Er's widow, so that the offspring could be declared Er's heir, which would then mean that Onan would be passed over in the line of succession.  Onan had sex with Tamar, but performed coitus interruptus, spilling his seed upon the ground, so as to avoid making Tamar pregnant.  For this act, which displeased God, God killed Onan.

Offline Mathim

Re: Gay marriage
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2008, 12:52:02 PM »
Wow. Some people are doing their research; sweet.

That's another thing that bugs me about opposition to gay marriage (and homosexuality in general), is people that say "Oh, the bible says it's wrong so that's why I think it's wrong." Half the time, they're wrong about whatever it is they're basing that belief on, and even when they are right about something, they're basically admitting to having no opinion of their own, it's an unquestioning notion someone or something else put in their heads that they haven't given any independent thought about. Or at least, that's the type of people I run into and feel the need to enlighten. I've already done that for several classmates and others although I don't know if they felt their opinion might need to change until they get some facts straight.

Offline mannik

Re: Gay marriage
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2008, 01:56:07 PM »
Gay marriage doesn't add or subtract anything from society, neither does straight marriage.

I don't understand why you loving someone else needs to be recognized by the state. If people love enough to be together for the rest of their lives then great, do that, best of luck to you. But you don't need to spend ass loads of money on a cerimony just to make it easier for the government to tax you both. Why does it matter what the state thinks about your love?

Offline Mathim

Re: Gay marriage
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2008, 01:59:50 PM »
It's not the state that's the issue, it's the right-wing voters making it an issue.

Offline mannik

Re: Gay marriage
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2008, 02:06:43 PM »
The second part of my statement was about marriage in general, not just gay marriage.

Offline Mathim

Re: Gay marriage
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2008, 02:10:42 PM »
Same thing; even their opposition to gay marriage is based on it threatening STRAIGHT marriage.