You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 03, 2016, 05:55:40 AM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)  (Read 5150 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online LisztesFerenc

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #75 on: September 03, 2015, 04:20:11 PM »
There is no war, there is food and there is water.

  There's more to life than that, like work, education and safety, and they are not selfish for wanting those in addition to food and water, especially since without work your supply of food and water is by no means guaranteed.

Offline eBadger

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #76 on: September 03, 2015, 04:24:40 PM »
Refugees, as sad as their story might be, should have NO expectation of receiving any aid other than the bare basics, and to be held in camps if need be. The host nation should not be required to house or care for them as good as their own citizens are, and there comes a point when that nation has a right to say; 'nope. No more. We've taken all we are willing to. Go away' to any new refugees.

What are the "bare basics"?  I don't think anyone here is arguing for the rest. 

There comes a point when a nation HAS to say; 'no more' or it will cease being a nation with a unregulated or unrestricted influx of refugees. If you bring in too many foreigners at once, you have a very high risk of losing your nation when the characteristic culture and society of that nation changes. Throw in several million refugees that have a hard time adapting to Western cultures and you have an explosive mix.

The current number of refugees in Europe is less than .1% of the US population.  All of them would be about 3%.  Does that affect your concern about losing national characteristic?

get in a Hungarian refuge camp because that's where they are safe.

Refugee camps are safe now?

Online DashenkaTopic starter

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #77 on: September 03, 2015, 04:29:18 PM »
What are the "bare basics"?  I don't think anyone here is arguing for the rest. 

The current number of refugees in Europe is less than .1% of the US population.  All of them would be about 3%.  Does that affect your concern about losing national characteristic?

Refugee camps are safe now?

Europe isn't one country. It's a lot of countries each with their own national characteristics. England is being swamped by Polish, who open up Polish shops, we get Polish newspapers, etc etc. These immigrants don't spread out over Europe as I've proven in my link because they only want to go to the rich countries in Europe, so they get much more than the 3%


Yes. Refugee camps in Hungary are safe. Full stop.


  There's more to life than that, like work, education and safety, and they are not selfish for wanting those in addition to food and water, especially since without work your supply of food and water is by no means guaranteed.

They want work? Get in line.... As do millions of Europeans in their own country. I don't know if you have noticed but unemployment in Europe is still quite high.

Offline gaggedLouise

  • Quim Queen | Collaborative juicy writer
  • Champion
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Location: Scandinavia
  • Gender: Female
  • Bound, gagged and unarmed but still dangerous.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #78 on: September 03, 2015, 04:31:49 PM »
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34142512

Happening now.

I rest my case.

(--)

I'm going to leave this conversation. Those migrants are perfectly safe and sound in Hungarian shelters but they refuse to go there because it's not what they want? Well I got news for them, a couple hundred of kilometers east of where they are, there are people trapped in bombed cities with nowhere to go who'd be desperate to get in a Hungarian refuge camp because that's where they are safe.


I saw that on the BBC earlier tonight, and I understand the refugees who poured on that train in Budapest had been told that the train was bound for Austria, which is where they all want to get as a next stop to Germany. All day there had been no trains at all exiting Hungary, the regime is trying to keep a no-exit ring at the borders while they're building a physical border fence in the south to block access. Normally Budapest is a busy international train junction, but the desire of the regime to keep the refugees contained has stopped all rail traffic in and out of the country.

So when the train stopped at that camp site in  Bicske, 25 miles outside of Budapest, and police went on the train to force them off, it's not hard to understand they saw themselves getting betrayed, double crossed. The reason they want to get out of Hungary without registering there, just moving through as fast as possible, is because they know the Hungarian government doesn't want anything to do with them and is more than likely to drag its feet on any kind of care forthem or handling their papers.

The Hungarian cabinet seems intent on just "sitting out" the situation to the point where they can deport the refugees back south and activate their border fence. I think most people would have fought being taken off that train in a place no one had been told they were going to. Especially if one has fled from a war and knows how easy it is for troops to stage some kind of hoax with dangerous consequences.

Edit: I'd agree with Ebadger: refugee camps are not safe, especially not when those who run the country blatantly don't want those people around and are treating them and their conditions as a kind of bargaining chip vs the governments of other EU countries. Hungary is not just in a standoff against the refugees, but also a standoff with Germany and other EU countries
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 04:37:12 PM by gaggedLouise »

Online LisztesFerenc

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #79 on: September 03, 2015, 04:34:06 PM »
Yes. Refugee camps in Hungary are safe. Full stop.

  Got a source for that? Because this would sugegst otherwise:

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2015/06/30/hungarian_police_contain_riot_in_overcrowded_refugee_camp_/1155174

Online DashenkaTopic starter

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #80 on: September 03, 2015, 04:38:19 PM »
They're fighting at each other now? I guess that only strengthens my point doesn't it?

Online LisztesFerenc

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #81 on: September 03, 2015, 04:39:30 PM »
They're fighting at each other now? I guess that only strengthens my point doesn't it?

  If you ignore the overcrowded keyword, then sure it does. If you don't, then you in fact see that refugee camps aren't save, because they are overcrowded with leads to a loads of other problems.

  Also this is news to you? Then how come you were able to flat out claim that camps were safe when you apparently hadn't done much research on the topic.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #82 on: September 03, 2015, 05:46:41 PM »
What are the "bare basics"?  I don't think anyone here is arguing for the rest. 

 Possibly not here, but I know on other forums, there are some who are. And it's sad. They expect and demand that the EU and USA takre in as many refugees as we can bear, even if it financially impacts us and lowers our quality of life.

 
Quote
The current number of refugees in Europe is less than .1% of the US population.  All of them would be about 3%.  Does that affect your concern about losing national characteristic?

 IIRC, about 10% of the population of Mexico currently resides in the US. That's about 10mmillion people and isn't counting the illegals and refugees from points further south. But we're talking about Europe, and that is a significant number they are taking in. It might not seem like much now, but if the open door policy keeps up, that number will increase by several factors since more will come and keep on coming. Unless you slam the door in their face and use force  of some kind to make it clear they aren't wanted or welcome, they will keep coming.

 The only alternatives I see are either opening the doors fully, in which case you will lose your country in about 10 years since basically unregulated immigration will let in a huge influx of people,  or you slam the door shut and let them deal with the consequences (even if it means starvation and death. Of course they could always stay and try to fix their nations..), or the last option, the US or EU invades and takes over their home nations and runs them. Annexation/colonialism v2. Stay there for the long term (20-100 years) and fix their countries and give them a decent culture that won't make their countries into third world shitholes (religious or secular) if/when the US/EU leaves.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #83 on: September 03, 2015, 08:39:04 PM »
Meanwhile, while we sit here bickering back and forth over this, 11k people in Iceland have offered to open up their homes to Syrian refugees. Their homes. Not refugee camps, not giving them houses. Take them into their own homes.

Seems to me they understand that we are all brothers and sisters. That we should all be willing to help each other.


http://time.com/4018241/iceland-syria-refugees/
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 08:40:16 PM by Iniquitous Opheliac »

Offline Caehlim

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #84 on: September 04, 2015, 12:44:50 AM »

Offline gaggedLouise

  • Quim Queen | Collaborative juicy writer
  • Champion
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Location: Scandinavia
  • Gender: Female
  • Bound, gagged and unarmed but still dangerous.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #85 on: September 04, 2015, 01:17:04 AM »
Several top-flight German football clubs of the Bundesliga are actively joining the effort to help the refugees to a good start, to empower them and to fight budding racism. Of course, Germany is the one big player within the EU that really embraces the challenge of taking in these refugees and migrants.

I'm hoping to see the same kind of spirited, creative efforts by football clubs here in Sweden, which has stood by the side of Germany and is receiving as many refugees set against the number of people living in the country.

Offline gaggedLouise

  • Quim Queen | Collaborative juicy writer
  • Champion
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Location: Scandinavia
  • Gender: Female
  • Bound, gagged and unarmed but still dangerous.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #86 on: September 04, 2015, 01:33:52 PM »
In a final bid, several hundred refugees have left Budapest's international train station this afternoon to walk on foot to Germany, up the Danube. It's a hundred miles to the Austrian border and twice that distance again through Austria before one would arrive in Bavaria. The Hungarian government have stated they won't be letting them through the border to Austria, that's perfectly legal and the way it's supposed to work, and many of these people might not even have passports from their old countries anyway.


The same day, the Hungarian parliament voted for extended powers on the job to the police, and stricter control on immigration.  :-X

The rationale behind those refugees not wanting to get registered or encamped in Hungary is, like before; if they are regged as having arrived there first and get formally processed there, they wouldn't be able to apply for permission to stay in Germany or some other country thatäs more sympathetic to them. At least that's been the line on the paperwork so far, though Ms Merkel said the other week that Germany is aiming to disregard that rule and treat any refugees arriving in Germany from the south and east as if they had no earlier "arrived in the EU" registrations.


Offline eBadger

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #87 on: September 04, 2015, 01:50:39 PM »
Amazing to see the good and bad in the world.  I wish the US were more firmly among the former, half as eager to rush to the rescue as the attack. 

Edit: A thing worth reading. 

They're fighting at each other now? I guess that only strengthens my point doesn't it?

If they're suffering peacefully in a camp, it's because they're content and should stay there; if they're rioting because of horrible conditions, it's because they're horrible people and should stay there. 

This sort of 'logic' just comes across as apologetic rationalization and no, it completely destroys your point. 
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 01:58:11 PM by eBadger »

Offline Lustful Bride

  • "Logic is for Squares."
  • Lady
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Gender: Female
  • This is some personal text. There are many like it, but this one is mine!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #88 on: September 04, 2015, 06:13:28 PM »
Was gonna put this in news but thought it would probably be better to put it here.

US Gives the UN $26.6 million to aid in the migrant crisis.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/the-latest-us-giving-un-dollar266-million-to-help-migrants/ar-AAdWjak?li=AA54ur&ocid=HPCDHP


I have a question though, why does it have to be given to the UN? why not the countries facing the crisis? Or is it a thing of jurisdiction/helping properly divide the funds?

Offline Caehlim

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #89 on: September 04, 2015, 06:34:08 PM »
I have a question though, why does it have to be given to the UN? why not the countries facing the crisis? Or is it a thing of jurisdiction/helping properly divide the funds?

Well I think it's a way of minimizing bureaucratic costs. I mean, you spend $26.6 million dollars and lose maybe 20% of that in paying for all the bureaucracy to track it and make sure it all gets where it needs to go, assess effectiveness, follow up on problems, etc. Handle it through the UN and all those departments are already in place.

Offline Lustful Bride

  • "Logic is for Squares."
  • Lady
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Gender: Female
  • This is some personal text. There are many like it, but this one is mine!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #90 on: September 04, 2015, 06:38:38 PM »
Well I think it's a way of minimizing bureaucratic costs. I mean, you spend $26.6 million dollars and lose maybe 20% of that in paying for all the bureaucracy to track it and make sure it all gets where it needs to go, assess effectiveness, follow up on problems, etc. Handle it through the UN and all those departments are already in place.

Ah okay.

Online DashenkaTopic starter

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #91 on: September 05, 2015, 03:31:28 AM »
https://www.facebook.com/PVVStemmers/videos/1636236099948046/


Judge for yourself... Immigrants at the station in Hungary, throwing away fresh water.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 03:47:33 AM by Dashenka »

Offline Caehlim

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #92 on: September 05, 2015, 03:38:10 AM »
Judge for yourself...

What's it a video of? I don't really like clicking on video links without knowing. Edit: If you don't mind my asking that is.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 03:40:53 AM by Caehlim »

Online DashenkaTopic starter

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #93 on: September 05, 2015, 03:48:04 AM »
Immigrants acting ungrateful :)
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 04:08:48 AM by Dashenka »

Offline gaggedLouise

  • Quim Queen | Collaborative juicy writer
  • Champion
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Location: Scandinavia
  • Gender: Female
  • Bound, gagged and unarmed but still dangerous.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #94 on: September 05, 2015, 04:16:21 AM »
Come on, Dasha.  ::)

1) It's not exactly fair to pick out a few immigrants in one location, where they have been stuck for several days under a lot of stress, and colour everybody else with what those few are doing.

2) It makes an effing difference to anyone whether you feel you're in the hands of people you trust or people/cops/a regime you don't trust. The cops at the station had been firing tear gas at some of the migrants yesterday, fighting them too, and the whole strategy of the cabinet had been to keep the immigrants contained and stop them from getting out of the country at all cost. You can't blame them for wanting to hit back at the cops and getting highly exasperated.

Or perhaps, feeling angry and looked at by ordinary travellers who are well dressed, healthy and free to go wherever they want as they pass by the immigrants, almost at talking distance but without a shared language (I bet none of those immigrants speak Hungarian and most likely, few of them speak German which is a big  second language in Hungary). It would be like sitting in a huge circus cage on display.

« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 04:24:18 AM by gaggedLouise »

Offline eBadger

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #95 on: September 05, 2015, 04:19:09 AM »
Judge for yourself... Immigrants at the station in Hungary, throwing away fresh water.

What are you trying to claim?  That they're simply too stupid to understand that humans need water to survive? 

It's a clip of food and water being handed out to immigrants on a train, some of which is refused/thrown back.  No audio, no context, no reporting.  It's interesting, but ultimately fairly pointless on its own. 

And indeed, further research indicates the refusal is part of a hunger strike.  I'm still trying to track down some reliable, comprehensive description of the conditions at the camps, but have come across mentions of lack of water, lack of food, poor shelter, and very long stays.  And, apparently, the Syrians consider them worth starving themselves to avoid. 

Online DashenkaTopic starter

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #96 on: September 05, 2015, 05:41:03 AM »
My point is that they are ungrateful. If I'd flee a war torn country I'd be happy with ANYTHING the country I upset gives me.

But as we've seen, I'm probably the only one here who thinks that.

Online Vekseid

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #97 on: September 05, 2015, 07:03:46 AM »
I'm assuming Dashenka linked this:



Can't judge by one video. Okay.







(The Calais video here is longer, the migrant dumps the food given to them a bit after 8:20)


Offline Caehlim

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #98 on: September 05, 2015, 07:47:17 AM »
So logically I see three real possibilities here.

1) These refugees are displaying the range of behaviour and emotions typical within human beings responding to the stresses and stimuli of their experiences. In other words anyone would act like these refugees in the same circumstances.

2) There is some unusual selection pressure that has resulted in especially unreasonable and uncooperative people being included in the refugee population in unrepresentative numbers.

3) These people are intrinsically inferior to westerners. Edit: (Included for completeness and because some people would argue this. I'm not suggesting anyone here is saying this).

...

if 1) Then people should show more empathy for people acting just like they would.
if 2) Then perhaps someone can explain that phenomenon.
and I don't think anyone wants to support 3.

Am I missing some alternative?

Edit 2: I should note that I'm assuming that the population of this group is a large enough sample size to assume a statistical representation is most likely to result.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 07:56:34 AM by Caehlim »

Online DashenkaTopic starter

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #99 on: September 05, 2015, 07:58:50 AM »
The reason isn't important?

What do they expect? To get the presidential suite in the local Hilton with salmon and kaviar for breakfast and a 6 course meal for dinner?


This is what Europe sees. This is what the common man in Europe sees about these immigrants. A few days ago we saw dead children washed up on a beach and everybody went all soft, now we get to see this and everybody hardens up again.


These immigrants don't really look as desperate as they say they are. These just look as if they want to get more and more.


To balance things out, Europe isn't exactly doing everything in their power to find a solution for this. Some countries want to force a number of refugees to every country, some countries don't agree with that.

What will happen when the majority of those refugees will be told they cannot go to Germany or the UK but instead have to go to, say Slovakia or Croatia. But the real question is, are they really desperate enough to accept they will have to go there, or will they settle for nothing less than the best they can get. I know where I'd put my money.